50 Reasons For a Pretribulational Rapture By Dr. John F. Walvoord
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Matthew 24:7-8 / Mark 13:8 / Luke 21:10-11 represent "the beginnings of sorrows" - not including from the earlier verses. Only these. Please see:
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html
http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Olivet_Discourse.html
At the once and only return of Christ we agree.
Before the great tribulation, no.
God doesn't use the devil, anti-Christ, false prophet and great tribulation persecute the saints, all nations, tribes, and tongues. Think carefully what you're positing.
The seals, trumpets, and bowls aren't directed toward Christians.
The bowls of wrath don't begin until after the great tribulation. The rapture has already happened. The church was protected by God and the two witnesses.
Seems like the big thing keeping you from tying it all together is you think the rapture happens pre-tribulation.
Study Matthew 24 where the great tribulation is described and then Jesus saying He comes back after the great tribulation to gather His elect.
Also, study who the elect are in the new testament. That should help you see that it's the church, not unbelieving Jews.
I know we have gone over this several times together, but I figured it can't hurt to tell you again. Sometimes just seeing things more than once helps unlock understanding.
Before the great tribulation, no.
God doesn't use the devil, anti-Christ, false prophet and great tribulation persecute the saints, all nations, tribes, and tongues. Think carefully what you're positing.
The seals, trumpets, and bowls aren't directed toward Christians.
The bowls of wrath don't begin until after the great tribulation. The rapture has already happened. The church was protected by God and the two witnesses.
Seems like the big thing keeping you from tying it all together is you think the rapture happens pre-tribulation.
Study Matthew 24 where the great tribulation is described and then Jesus saying He comes back after the great tribulation to gather His elect.
Also, study who the elect are in the new testament. That should help you see that it's the church, not unbelieving Jews.
I know we have gone over this several times together, but I figured it can't hurt to tell you again. Sometimes just seeing things more than once helps unlock understanding.
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You're not understanding that these events are two separate events. You have adopted the teaching that the gathering of the church and the Lord's return to the earth to end the age as take place at the same time. The gathering of the church is a promise from the Lord found in John 14:1-3, I Corinthians 15:50-53 and I Thessalonians 4:13-18.
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"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. (I Thessalonians 5:1-4)
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The times and the seasons, is regarding what Paul just spoke about in the previous chapter, which is when the church would be gathered. He's says that he doesn't need to write to them about when it will happen, because it will take place like a thief in the night, i.e. the Lord's appearing is always imminent.
The people in verse 3 who will say 'Peace and Safety' represent the unbelievers in the world, for at that time when they are saying 'Peace and Safety' then destruction will come upon them suddenly, which is referring to the time of God's wrath and they will not escape from this.
'But you brothers' would infer the opposite of 'not escaping' i.e. but you brothers will escape. How? By what Paul just wrote to them in the previous chapter saying that the Lord will descend from heaven, with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead would rise in their immortal and glorified bodies. And then we who are still alive and remain will be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At that time the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered together in one place and from there the Lord will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
After the church has been caught up to meet the Lord in the air, then that sudden destruction, the time period of God's wrath will begin. The scripture states that believers within the church are not in darkness so that this day should take us by surprise, i.e. because we will be having faith in Christ, we will not be here on the earth for that time of destruction. For it also states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
I continue to say it, people have not done an in depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, understanding the severity and magnitude of their destruction and the fatalities that will result. If they did, they would not claim that the church is going to be on the earth during that time.
The time of God's wrath will be for the wicked, the proud, the arrogant, the sexually immoral and who continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature. The true church will not be living like that, but will be watching for and anticipating the Lord's appearing and will be removed from the earth.
Every event that takes place during that last seven years is a part of God's wrath, including the beasts reign, the mark of the beast, etc. The mark will be like that proverbial line being drawn in the sand which will force people to make a direct decision for God or Satan. Those who receive it will love their lives more than God. And those who refuse it will keep their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark at the expense of their own lives. These will be the great tribulation saints, those who will have come to Christ after the church was gathered and during the time period of God's wrath.
That is correct! And because of their severity and the fact that they will affect the entire world, the church will not remain on the earth, but will be gathered by the Lord. Even if the Lord protected the church, the earth will be no place to live during that time. Remember, everyone will be required to take that mark in order to be able to continue credit and debit their bank accounts. That would mean that the believers in the church would not be able to pay their mortgages/rents, buy gas, food or anything else, because they will not have access to their money without that mark.
The bowls of wrath and the kingdom of the beast, is why it is called the great tribulation. By the way, the seals and trumpets also events of God's wrath and not just the bowls.
That is exactly what I have been saying, i.e. that the gathering of the church will take place prior to the first seal is opened, which initiates God's wrath.
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10
The word 'ek' is translated above as 'out of' which means that believers will be kept out of that time of wrath, not in it or through it, but will be kept 'out of' that time of wrath. And the way that He will keep us 'out of' that time of wrath, is that the Lord will keep His promise by gathering the church and taking them back to the Father's house.
Runningman, I have studied Matthew 24 and all the related scriptures more times than I can count over the last 45 years. I wouldn't be teaching these truths if I hadn't. Matt.24:29-31 is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. In Matt.24:31, the Lord will send out His angels and they will go out and first collect the wicked, which are the 'ones taken' group and will be brought back to the Lord to be killed with that double-edged sword described in Rev.19:15, 21. Matt.24:31, is not in reference to the angels gathering the church at the rapture as some believe, but will be gathering both the wicked and the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God. Just fyi, angels do not gather those who will be resurrected, nor the living who will be changed and caught up. They will rise under their own power when the Lord with a voice that will sound like a trumpet, calls them up. Both the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints who make it alive through the entire wrath of God, will enter into the millennial kingdom and will repopulate the earth.
Both Jews and Gentile believers are referred to as the elect. We should not pigeonhole the word 'elect' to mean one thing.
Just trying to break you free of the teaching that the gathering of the church as being synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events, which take place at different times and for different reasons.
=====================================================================
"Now about the times and seasons, brothers, we do not need to write to you. 2For you are fully aware that the Day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, “Peace and security,” destruction will come upon them suddenly, like labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.
4But you, brothers, are not in the darkness so that this day should overtake you like a thief. (I Thessalonians 5:1-4)
=====================================================================
The times and the seasons, is regarding what Paul just spoke about in the previous chapter, which is when the church would be gathered. He's says that he doesn't need to write to them about when it will happen, because it will take place like a thief in the night, i.e. the Lord's appearing is always imminent.
The people in verse 3 who will say 'Peace and Safety' represent the unbelievers in the world, for at that time when they are saying 'Peace and Safety' then destruction will come upon them suddenly, which is referring to the time of God's wrath and they will not escape from this.
'But you brothers' would infer the opposite of 'not escaping' i.e. but you brothers will escape. How? By what Paul just wrote to them in the previous chapter saying that the Lord will descend from heaven, with a loud command and with the voice of an archangel and the trumpet of God and the dead would rise in their immortal and glorified bodies. And then we who are still alive and remain will be changed and caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. At that time the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered together in one place and from there the Lord will take the whole group back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us.
After the church has been caught up to meet the Lord in the air, then that sudden destruction, the time period of God's wrath will begin. The scripture states that believers within the church are not in darkness so that this day should take us by surprise, i.e. because we will be having faith in Christ, we will not be here on the earth for that time of destruction. For it also states that we are not appointed to suffer God's coming wrath.
I continue to say it, people have not done an in depth study of the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, understanding the severity and magnitude of their destruction and the fatalities that will result. If they did, they would not claim that the church is going to be on the earth during that time.
The time of God's wrath will be for the wicked, the proud, the arrogant, the sexually immoral and who continue to willfully live according to the sinful nature. The true church will not be living like that, but will be watching for and anticipating the Lord's appearing and will be removed from the earth.
Every event that takes place during that last seven years is a part of God's wrath, including the beasts reign, the mark of the beast, etc. The mark will be like that proverbial line being drawn in the sand which will force people to make a direct decision for God or Satan. Those who receive it will love their lives more than God. And those who refuse it will keep their testimony for Jesus and the word of God and will not worship the beast, his image nor receive his mark at the expense of their own lives. These will be the great tribulation saints, those who will have come to Christ after the church was gathered and during the time period of God's wrath.
That is correct! And because of their severity and the fact that they will affect the entire world, the church will not remain on the earth, but will be gathered by the Lord. Even if the Lord protected the church, the earth will be no place to live during that time. Remember, everyone will be required to take that mark in order to be able to continue credit and debit their bank accounts. That would mean that the believers in the church would not be able to pay their mortgages/rents, buy gas, food or anything else, because they will not have access to their money without that mark.
The bowls of wrath and the kingdom of the beast, is why it is called the great tribulation. By the way, the seals and trumpets also events of God's wrath and not just the bowls.
That is exactly what I have been saying, i.e. that the gathering of the church will take place prior to the first seal is opened, which initiates God's wrath.
"But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and the helmet of our hope of salvation. For God has not appointed us to suffer wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ."
"They tell how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead—Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath.
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you out of the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth." - Rev.3:10
The word 'ek' is translated above as 'out of' which means that believers will be kept out of that time of wrath, not in it or through it, but will be kept 'out of' that time of wrath. And the way that He will keep us 'out of' that time of wrath, is that the Lord will keep His promise by gathering the church and taking them back to the Father's house.
Runningman, I have studied Matthew 24 and all the related scriptures more times than I can count over the last 45 years. I wouldn't be teaching these truths if I hadn't. Matt.24:29-31 is in reference to when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. In Matt.24:31, the Lord will send out His angels and they will go out and first collect the wicked, which are the 'ones taken' group and will be brought back to the Lord to be killed with that double-edged sword described in Rev.19:15, 21. Matt.24:31, is not in reference to the angels gathering the church at the rapture as some believe, but will be gathering both the wicked and the righteous who will have made it alive through the entire wrath of God. Just fyi, angels do not gather those who will be resurrected, nor the living who will be changed and caught up. They will rise under their own power when the Lord with a voice that will sound like a trumpet, calls them up. Both the remnant of Israel and the great tribulation saints who make it alive through the entire wrath of God, will enter into the millennial kingdom and will repopulate the earth.
Both Jews and Gentile believers are referred to as the elect. We should not pigeonhole the word 'elect' to mean one thing.
Just trying to break you free of the teaching that the gathering of the church as being synonymous with the Lord's return to the earth to end the age. They are two separate events, which take place at different times and for different reasons.
This is funny.
I understand your POV.
It can be pretty painful trying to read his posts.
I can usually "decipher" his posts if I want to make the effort. Otherwise - and, to be honest, it is the 'norm' - I just skip it...
I do the same type of thing myself - intended to help folks better understand what I have written.
Of course, [I don't think] mine are not nearly as difficult to "decipher" as his. (I sure hope not.)
One thing I can say about him, however - he is generally always cordial about it!
I understand your POV.
It can be pretty painful trying to read his posts.
I can usually "decipher" his posts if I want to make the effort. Otherwise - and, to be honest, it is the 'norm' - I just skip it...
I do the same type of thing myself - intended to help folks better understand what I have written.
Of course, [I don't think] mine are not nearly as difficult to "decipher" as his. (I sure hope not.)
One thing I can say about him, however - he is generally always cordial about it!
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There is no 7 year period seen in scripture
The 1260 days of the Two Witnesses and 42 months of (The Beast) are future parallel time frames of 3.5 years, that will start when (The Little Horn) or (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) is revealed in Jerusalem, with the Two Prophets of Rev 11 standing against this figure the entire time
The 1260 days of the Two Witnesses and 42 months of (The Beast) are future parallel time frames of 3.5 years, that will start when (The Little Horn) or (Man Of Sin) or (The Beast) is revealed in Jerusalem, with the Two Prophets of Rev 11 standing against this figure the entire time
There will be a 3.5 year period from the time John's Beast is revealed
There will be two witnesses, prophets returned that will bring literal plagues Rev 16:1-11 upon this world, as the sealed church is protected
This will be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt
At the end of this great tribulation,the witnesses will be killed,the world celebrates for 3.5 days, as they are raised to heaven, as the world watches in fear
The 3rd woe is unleashed shortly after, in the Lords second coming in fire and judgement, the heavens and earth are dissolved by fire, as judgement is complete, lake of fire for the wicked, the eternal new heaven, earth, Jerusalem, for the righteous.
There will be two witnesses, prophets returned that will bring literal plagues Rev 16:1-11 upon this world, as the sealed church is protected
This will be a complete remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt
At the end of this great tribulation,the witnesses will be killed,the world celebrates for 3.5 days, as they are raised to heaven, as the world watches in fear
The 3rd woe is unleashed shortly after, in the Lords second coming in fire and judgement, the heavens and earth are dissolved by fire, as judgement is complete, lake of fire for the wicked, the eternal new heaven, earth, Jerusalem, for the righteous.
Your claim is false, the gathering seen below isnt a Pre-Trib rapture as you claim, it's the (Second Coming) The End!
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is nothing more than the (Second Coming) Last Day Resurrection (Then Cometh The End) when (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end
1 Corinthians 15:22-26KJV
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Corinthians 15:51-54 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 is nothing more than the (Second Coming) Last Day Resurrection (Then Cometh The End) when (Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory)
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end
afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end
1 Corinthians 15:22-26KJV
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
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