2000 years and end times connection

[ewq1938]

I believe that as long as the saints ar vigilant and do not give up; thinking that the mark is inevitable and therefore we ought not to fight against it, we may even be able to prevent it from happening for as long as the church is on the earth.

So you think church could make this prophecy not happen??

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Wouldn't that be taking away from prophecies of Revelation?

 

[justbyfaith]

So you think church could make this prophecy not happen??

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Wouldn't that be taking away from prophecies of Revelation?

Yes, I believe that the Holy Spirit within the church is in fact a restraining factor that keeps the mark from being implemented so that the antichrist agenda will not be able to come in full force until either the rapture comes or else a falling away that affects the majoirty of Christendom; and even if there is a falling away, such a thing can be reversed if revival occurs.

For it is written in Daniel 12 that the antichrist agenda will not have its full realization until after the power of the holy people has been scattered.

 

[justbyfaith]

So you think church could make this prophecy not happen??

Rev 13:11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
Rev 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
Rev 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
Rev 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Wouldn't that be taking away from prophecies of Revelation?

If the church is on the earth when the mark is implemented, then, according to the verse above that you have underlined and placed in bold, there are those in the church who will take the mark; in fact, everyone in the church will do so.

 

[ewq1938]

and even if there is a falling away, such a thing can be reversed if revival occurs.

No. There is no "if" about the Apostasy. It will happen and it cannot be stopped nor "reversed". The Apostates will accept and worship the false Christ and will take mark of beast and this is their fate:


Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

 

[justbyfaith]

But how is that possible, since there is no condemnation for those who are in the church?

Because the mark is everlasting condemnation on all who take it.

(cont'd from #43).

 

[justbyfaith]

No. There is no "if" about the Apostasy. It will happen and it cannot be stopped nor "reversed". The Apostates will accept and worship the false Christ and will take mark of beast and this is their fate:


Rev 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
Rev 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

The final falling away indeed will not be reversed.

However, apostasies over the generations have been reversed when revival has hit.

Therefore, I contend that it can happen again.

 

[ewq1938]

If the church is on the earth when the mark is implemented, then, according to the verse above that you have underlined and placed in bold, there are those in the church who will take the mark; in fact, everyone in the church will do so.

When its ays "all" take mark it means all types of people, great or not like rich and famous people to poor and homeless. It doesn't mean "all" as in every single human. The two witnesses don't take mark and there will be others who will not also:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

 

[ewq1938]

The final falling away indeed will not be reversed.

However, apostasies over the generations have been reversed when revival has hit.

Therefore, I contend that it can happen again.

Not the final one.

 

[ewq1938]

But how is that possible, since there is no condemnation for those who are in the church?

Because the mark is everlasting condemnation on all who take it.

(cont'd from #43).

Those of Apostasy leave the church and leave Christ.

 

[justbyfaith]

Not the final one.

So, I suppose that what remains to be seen is whether or not we are currently experiencing the final one.

 

[justbyfaith]

When its ays "all" take mark it means all types of people, great or not like rich and famous people to poor and homeless. It doesn't mean "all" as in every single human. The two witnesses don't take mark and there will be others who will not also:

Rev 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Since taking the mark will be tied closely to worshiping the beast and his image, those who do not take the mark will be killed for not worshiping the beast and his image (Revelation 13:15).

And those whom you are speaking of in Revelation 20:4 may indeed be those who have been resurrected after having been killed for refusing the mark.

 

[justbyfaith]

Those of Apostasy leave the church and leave Christ.

However, the great falling away will be a falling away from sound doctrine within the church.

 

[Diakonos]

I am praying for a pre-tribulation rapture

I think we are on the same page about this
I am hoping in the pre-trib rapture because it is biblically consistent. That being said, the church will be gone before the Tribulation, which means the "saints" / "holy people" is Israel from Rev 6-18. The Holy Spirit is the restrainer. When He is taken out of the way, then the Antichrist will be able to fully bring his government to fruition.

Since the church has become eternally bound (cannot be separated from) the Holy Spirit...when He leaves the world...so do we.
We go with Him. That's the super simple explanation of why (and when) the rapture happens. But this is also explained in hundreds of passages (explicitly and implicitly).

It may be that God intended the book of Revelation, not as a prophecy that will definitely come to pass; but as a warning in order to keep the saints vigilant in an eternal sense.

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.” (Revelation 1:1–3)​

The book of Revelation is prophecy. It will come to pass. vs 19 says the future things written in this book are "the things which will take place".
Daniel also testifies to the certainty of these future events:

““As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what will take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place.” (Daniel 2:29)

““Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future.”” (Daniel 10:14)​

If we apply this logic that the book (Revelation) is not a certain, sure prophecy...that would also include the return of Jesus, the wedding of Christ and the church, Satan's final defeat, and the new heavens and new earth, etc. These events are prophesied in the OT and explained in the NT.

I believe that you are mistaken in your interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8. For, I believe that God has given to the common people the unadulterated message of His word in their own language. And therefore, it is sufficient in the English and we do not have to go to the Greek to find out what it REALY MEANS.

Do you believe that the first KJV Bible was 100% flawless as a translation?

 

[justbyfaith]

I think we are on the same page about this
I am hoping in the pre-trib rapture because it is biblically consistent. That being said, the church will be gone before the Tribulation, which means the "saints" / "holy people" is Israel from Rev 6-18. The Holy Spirit is the restrainer. When He is taken out of the way, then the Antichrist will be able to fully bring his government to fruition.

Since the church has become eternally bound (cannot be separated from) the Holy Spirit...when He leaves the world...so do we.
We go with Him. That's the super simple explanation of why (and when) the rapture happens. But this is also explained in hundreds of passages (explicitly and implicitly).

“The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.” (Revelation 1:1–3)​

The book of Revelation is prophecy. It will come to pass. vs 19 says the future things written in this book are "the things which will take place".
Daniel also testifies to the certainty of these future events:

““As for you, O king, while on your bed your thoughts turned to what will take place in the future; and He who reveals mysteries has made known to you what will take place.” (Daniel 2:29)

““Now I have come to give you an understanding of what will happen to your people in the latter days, for the vision pertains to the days yet future.”” (Daniel 10:14)​

If we apply this logic that the book (Revelation) is not a certain, sure prophecy...that would also include the return of Jesus, the wedding of Christ and the church, Satan's final defeat, and the new heavens and new earth, etc. These events are prophesied in the OT and explained in the NT.


Do you believe that the first KJV Bible was 100% flawless as a translation?

I believe that it is inspired and inerrant as concerning doctrine.

And, 1 Corinthians 13:8 does stand out to me in that version as saying that the events of the book of Revelation can be prevented for as long as the church is on the earth...that we are indeed that restraining factor and that as long as we are here it is not inevitable that any attempt by satan to implement the mark must surely come to pass.

 

[Diakonos]

I believe that it is inspired and inerrant as concerning doctrine.

I believe your sincerity. But I didn't ask about inerrancy or inspiration...
Do you believe that the first KJV Bible was 100% flawless as a translation?

1 Corinthians 13:8 does stand out to me in that version as saying that the events of the book of Revelation can be prevented for as long as the church is on the earth...that we are indeed that restraining factor and that as long as we are here it is not inevitable that any attempt by satan to implement the mark must surely come to pass.

If you used the word "delay" rather than "prevent", then I could agree.
The fact is: The Church will depart with the Holy Spirit. The Antichrist will have his way and implement the mark on the remaining world. In other words, the departure of the Church is what triggers the tribulation. But the timing of our departure, I believe, can be influenced by the church's diligence to be sanctified and preach the gospel.

There is no dispute that the tribulation (following the rapture) will come to pass (Dan 2:29, 10:14). The mystery, though, is "when?".
We know this because Revelation is prophecy (Rev 1:3), all prophecy is from God (1 Pet 1:22), and God cannot lie (Tit 1:2).

 

[justbyfaith]

I believe your sincerity. But I didn't ask about inerrancy or inspiration...
Do you believe that the first KJV Bible was 100% flawless as a translation?

It has flaws in it as concerning certain numbers and names, that I have seen.

 

[Diakonos]

It has flaws in it as concerning certain numbers and names, that I have seen.

Exactly... it has errors.

Since the KJV is not completely true, it is not an inspired, special preservation from God? It is a man-made translation (just like all translations are).

All that God breathes is 100% true.

Having said that, there are no "inspired translations"; no translation is flawless.
The KJV is a very good translation (the KJV and NASB are equally the 2 most accurate translations overall).

Having a good translation like the KJV is plenty sufficient for godliness and ministry and living a holy life that is pleasing to God. But precision in technical areas requires more accuracy. You, as a believer are not required by God to be able to articulate every Biblical subject with precision, but you will be a better distributor of truth if you are diligent in that area of study. We know that what the original manuscripts say is inspired. So any part of a translation that contradicts what the original says is not what God said. God meant exactly what He said when the Scriptures were first written by the prophets and apostles. The word of God never changes, never fades, never fails.

 

[justbyfaith]

God, being Omnipotent and sovereign and loving;

Because He is sovereign and Omnipotent, is able to preserve doctrine that is necessary for salvation perfectly in the Bible that I read.

Because He is loving, He is motivated to do so.

Name one good reason, therefore, that God has not preserved His unadulterated message in the kjv.