2 Thessalonians 2

[Gideon300]

True and true. I think that partly is the problem with those antichrist readings of 2 Thessalonians 2. They have to isolate and decontextualize the passage in order to fit it into a non-scriptural eschatology.
Re Romans, again it feeds back into the theme of God's wrath against the Jews. I totally agree Gideon, all these passages work together to reinforce the point because the Holy Spirit, the voice and mind of God, is not in conflict with itself!!

I don't accept that Paul is talking solely about the Jews. He declares that homosexuality is a result of mankind's rejection of God. The Greeks and Romans were fine with homosexuality. It was obviously an issue in Abraham's time. That is before Israel existed, of course.

 

[OldSage]

I don't accept that Paul is talking solely about the Jews. He declares that homosexuality is a result of mankind's rejection of God. The Greeks and Romans were fine with homosexuality. It was obviously an issue in Abraham's time. That is before Israel existed, of course.

I've seen the same thing in my lifetime. When I first came to Australia, the UK was mocked for legalising homosexuality. Now, not only is it legal in both countries, Christians can be imprisoned for stating the scriptural objections to it. A few people have been arrested in the UK, but the court threw out the cases. It's still intimidation and persecution.

Laws have been passed but not enacted in Australia that will make it an offence to teach your children biblical principles. Australia is sinking into a morass of sin and the nation is suffering under God's judgement as a result.

This decline is the responsibility of the church. Christians are the true authority on the earth. If we fail to exercise our authority and power, we get exactly what is happening in what used to be Christian nations. We are supposed to be salt and light. In reality, the light is dim and the salt is too mixed with the dirt of the world to be of much use.

Yes I think you have a very good point.
I think it is aimed at both Israel, (first), and all humankind.
I need to take your correction on board I think

 

[OldSage]

I don't accept that Paul is talking solely about the Jews. He declares that homosexuality is a result of mankind's rejection of God. The Greeks and Romans were fine with homosexuality. It was obviously an issue in Abraham's time. That is before Israel existed, of course.

It is a tough passage to grasp, I think.
It does sound like he's talking about the Greeks, I agree.
There's is a certain amount of evidence that certain Greek tribes were Israelite tribes.
It's very hard for us to corroborate those things, but they most likely have been better understood this when Paul was writing.
The tribe of Dan and the Greek Danaans? I think there is historical evidence for this.
The Spartans also. In mythology there is the idea that Hercules was a form of Samson.
I really don't know about the veracity of these claims. Apparently quite a lot of Israelites disappear between the first and second census.

It makes sense logically to see the Israelites come out of Egypt with the Egyptian pantheon of Gods,
and then some of then to abandon Israel, and go to Greece, with their Egyptian/Greek mythology intact.
Then they became re-adopted back into Israel through Hellenization.

But I don't know if anyone can convincingly prove the case.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
You quoted 2 Thess 2:2+ but ignored v.1. I assumed nothing. Why are YOU presuming?

Will you take my challenge? Quote 2 Thess 2:1 like this, but put in the parentheses the words you think "coming" and "gathering" mean.

Concerning the coming (Second Advent) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him (rapture), we ask you, brothers and sisters,

OK, your turn.

You are the one putting Second Advent in there, not the scriptures !!

Then just take my challenge and put in parentheses what you believe "coming of our Lord" means. It's that easy.

If anyone equates the number of Jesus' coming to earth with his TWO ADVENTS then they are way off the deep end to start with.

This is irrelevant. Heb 9:28 is clear enough for anyone to grasp. "He will appear a second time" means exactly what it says. The first part of the verse references His FIRST appearance on earth. So the math is very easy.

John ch. 20, Jesus tells Mary, touch me not fr I have not yet ascended unto the Father (to offer the sacrifice). Then 8 days later he tells Doubting Thomas to touch his wounds, has this clicked yet?

Just add up the appearances in Heb 9:28. Real easy.

The First Resurrection is THE RIGHTEOUS, the 2nd Resurrection is the UNRIGHTEOUS 1000 years later.

Why do you presume I don't know that. Acts 24:15 makes that point very clearly. As does Acts 24:15.

Jesus will have only TWO ADVENTS on this Earth, as the Suffering Servant and as the Conquering King.

There you go. My point exactly.

But to try and say Jesus can thus only COME to this earth twice is just (sorry) WAY OUT THERE in la la land.

Now you're just trying to swallow gnats or something.

So, Jesus will come to the clouds and call us home as Rev. 14:14 clearly shows

This is a summary verse about what is coming.

No one is ever going to out debate me on a blog I wrote, period.

Well, bully for you. However, truth is truth. Either you have it or you don't, regardless of your debating "skills". Or your opinion of them. The only way to prove your claims is by having Scripture that says what you claim. Well, do you?

If I understand it well enough to run a blog you might as well give it up.

As if your over-confidence in your blogging techniques will deter me. I think you'd better give it up. I have the truth and your blogging skills have no advantange over the truth.

This is simple, not complex. Everyone will have attest to Jesus why they kept going down a wrongheaded path.

I hope that you are preparing your defense. You'll need one. Not that it will help. Since you have been given the truth.

Its mind-boggling at the people who want to fight to their last breath to go through the 70th week tribulation, they will not be taught and they know they are right, even though it's obvious they are very, very wrong.

Well, this is sick. Who is "fighting for their last breath" to "go through" anything?

What I strongly defend is the truth of what Scripture says. Period. You haven't refuted anything I've posted. Yes, you have disagreed, but so what? You have given your opinions, but where is the Scripture that says what you claim?

Its a waste of time to be honest, and I wonder why the Holy Spirit can't teach these people, SMH. Something ain't right, I tried debating with them for years, now I refuse to converse with them, they have to know they are wrong and ot just stubborn, OR............You do the math.

Why don't you. Starting with Heb 9:28.

And, just curious, but why won't you take my challenge with 2 Thess 2:1. You've shared your opinion that I'm wrong about it, but in all this post, you don't even try to explain the verse as you understand it.

What are you waiting for? If you have the truth, please share.

Do you think I want to be wrong? I sure don't think you want to be wrong.

Anyone who wants to be wrong is an idiot.

Yet, everyone thinks they are right. Well, ain't happening. When 2 people disagree, either one of them is wrong, or both are wrong.

But, both can NEVER be right when they are at polar opposites. Just can't happen.

So explain what 2Thess 2:1 is referring to, if not the Second Advent and rapture. If you know. Maybe that why you aren't taking my challenge.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Say what??!!

When is this "coming of the Lord" going to or when did it occur?

And what is this "cauldron of Jerusalem"? Where in the Bible is it mentioned?

Thanks.

The cauldron is a metaphor. Like when Jesus says 'I am coming with fire'.
The destruction of Judea and Jerusalem. It is mentioned all through scripture, starting in the Old Covenant.
I am not sure I have the will nor energy to take you though all of the Old Covenant texts right now.

Not necessary. My question was WHEN does this occur on the end times timeline? I don't need an OT review.

The coming of the Lord is mentioned throughout the NT.

Thank you. WHEN does it occur?

Here we have Jesus coming in wrath but the Church being delivered all in one sentence

OK, and that perfectly fits a Second Advent event, because Jesus comes to END the battle of Armageddon. That will surely be wrathful.

1 Thessalonians 19 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God; 10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

Excuse me, but let's look at the tenses here in v.10.

First, we have the future "to wait for His Son from heaven". The, we have the past tense "which delivered us from the wrath to come".

It seems you've taken v.10 to all be future. Which it isn't.

Paul notes that Jesus is coming back in the future. For which we (the church) are to wait for. Then Paul essentially reminds us that Jesus has already delivered us (believers) from the wrath to come.

That wrath would be Jesus' ending of the Trib by ending the BATTLE of Armageddon. There'll be plenty of wrath exhibited at that battle, for sure. And believers won't be in that battle. Jesus does all the fighting, which will be quite quick.

You have not yet clearly explained what 2Thess 2:1 refers to by "coming" and "gathered".

If you agree that "gathered" does refer to the rapture and resurrection (1 Thess 4:16,17, 1 Cor 15:52), then you have to admit what Paul said in v.3, that it can't happen UNTIL the "rebellion" occurs, which is obviously the Trib and the beast (aka a.c) is revealed.

So, please, without a summary of the OT, just put in parentheses what "coming" refers to and "gathered" refers to.

I believe the reason that no pretribber has taken up my challenge on this verse is that they know they have been cornered.

So instead of taking the challenge, all we get is long posts trying to distract with lots of words.

Pretribbers need to define/explain only 2 words in 2 Thess 2:1. "coming" and "gathered". What do they refer to. Specifically.

Thanks.

 

[FreeGrace2]

It is a tough passage to grasp, I think.
It does sound like he's talking about the Greeks, I agree.
There's is a certain amount of evidence that certain Greek tribes were Israelite tribes.
It's very hard for us to corroborate those things, but they most likely have been better understood this when Paul was writing.
The tribe of Dan and the Greek Danaans? I think there is historical evidence for this.
The Spartans also. In mythology there is the idea that Hercules was a form of Samson.
I really don't know about the veracity of these claims. Apparently quite a lot of Israelites disappear between the first and second census.

It makes sense logically to see the Israelites come out of Egypt with the Egyptian pantheon of Gods,
and then some of then to abandon Israel, and go to Greece, with their Egyptian/Greek mythology intact.
Then they became re-adopted back into Israel through Hellenization.

But I don't know if anyone can convincingly prove the case.

I'm curious as to why the emphasis on who Paul wrote to. Why would it matter? In his epistle to the Romans (Greeks) he addressed the Jews as well. So the messages he sent to the various churches were to both.

And we must remember what Paul wrote in Gal 3-
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.

So, ALL believers in Christ are "Abraham's offspring".

The key is every believer is "one is Christ Jesus".

Paul did not have different messages for Greeks and Jews.

 

[OldSage]

Thank you. WHEN does it occur?

AD67-73

 

[OldSage]

First, we have the future "to wait for His Son from heaven". The, we have the past tense "which delivered us from the wrath to come".

Why do you get confused here? Jesus delivered us, past tense, when he gave instructions to the Church, in the past, e.g. Matthew 24

 

[OldSage]

FreeGrace2 said:
Say what??!!

When is this "coming of the Lord" going to or when did it occur?

And what is this "cauldron of Jerusalem"? Where in the Bible is it mentioned?

Thanks.

Not necessary. My question was WHEN does this occur on the end times timeline? I don't need an OT review.


Thank you. WHEN does it occur?


OK, and that perfectly fits a Second Advent event, because Jesus comes to END the battle of Armageddon. That will surely be wrathful.


Excuse me, but let's look at the tenses here in v.10.

First, we have the future "to wait for His Son from heaven". The, we have the past tense "which delivered us from the wrath to come".

It seems you've taken v.10 to all be future. Which it isn't.

Paul notes that Jesus is coming back in the future. For which we (the church) are to wait for. Then Paul essentially reminds us that Jesus has already delivered us (believers) from the wrath to come.

That wrath would be Jesus' ending of the Trib by ending the BATTLE of Armageddon. There'll be plenty of wrath exhibited at that battle, for sure. And believers won't be in that battle. Jesus does all the fighting, which will be quite quick.

You have not yet clearly explained what 2Thess 2:1 refers to by "coming" and "gathered".

If you agree that "gathered" does refer to the rapture and resurrection (1 Thess 4:16,17, 1 Cor 15:52), then you have to admit what Paul said in v.3, that it can't happen UNTIL the "rebellion" occurs, which is obviously the Trib and the beast (aka a.c) is revealed.

So, please, without a summary of the OT, just put in parentheses what "coming" refers to and "gathered" refers to.

I believe the reason that no pretribber has taken up my challenge on this verse is that they know they have been cornered.

So instead of taking the challenge, all we get is long posts trying to distract with lots of words.

Pretribbers need to define/explain only 2 words in 2 Thess 2:1. "coming" and "gathered". What do they refer to. Specifically.

Thanks.

I have explained what coming and gathering refer to.
Just read and absorb, and maybe try to respond in a more considered way

 

[Mem]

I have explained what coming and gathering refer to.
Just read and absorb, and maybe try to respond in a more considered way

2 Thess 2 offers no cross references and neither does Zechariah 12 other than that connected to 'the one they've pierced.' Would you consider these to be speaking on the same topic?

 

[OldSage]

2 Thess 2 offers no cross references and neither does Zechariah 12 other than that connected to 'the one they've pierced.' Would you consider these to be speaking on the same topic?

i am not sure why the cross is of importance here Mem. Zechariah is describing an event around the regathering of Israel isn't he?
Paul is advising a first century Church how not to get hoodwinked by deceptive elements.

 

[Mem]

i am not sure why the cross is of importance here Mem. Zechariah is describing an event around the regathering of Israel isn't he?
Paul is advising a first century Church how not to get hoodwinked by deceptive elements.

I'm not sure, I'm still in the process of ascertaining the Day of the Lord, which I had previously held, rightly or wrongly I wish to determine, as synonymous with 'the last day' mentioned four times by Jesus in John 6, which various discussions throughout the forum seems to keep drawing me back to in this case or that and will probably turn out to be the chapter study of this week for me.

 

[OldSage]

I'm not sure, I'm still in the process of ascertaining the Day of the Lord, which I had previously held, rightly or wrongly I wish to determine, as synonymous with 'the last day' mentioned four times by Jesus in John 6, which various discussions throughout the forum seems to keep drawing me back to in this case or that and will probably turn out to be the chapter study of this week for me.

Well make it a good study!
Fortunately some scriptures leave no room for doubt

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done.28 “Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”

 

[FreeGrace2]

You noted,
"The coming of the Lord is mentioned throughout the NT."

So I asked:
"Thank you. WHEN does it occur?"

AD67-73

Please explain from Scripture WHERE Jesus came back to earth in that time period.

The "coming of the Lord" IS mentioned throughtout the NT, and in EVERY case refers to His Second Advent.

But I'd like to see biblical evidence, or even historical evidence for your claim that Jesus came back to earth between AD 67-73.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
First, we have the future "to wait for His Son from heaven". The, we have the past tense "which delivered us from the wrath to come".

Why do you get confused here? Jesus delivered us, past tense, when he gave instructions to the Church, in the past, e.g. Matthew 24

How am I confused. Why can't you see the obvious tense differences in the verse?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I have explained what coming and gathering refer to.
Just read and absorb, and maybe try to respond in a more considered way

I don't need your condescension to understand the Bible. What you keep failing to do is clearly define each of the words, which you haven't done. Oh yes, you've been all over the map, but you need to narrow it down specifically.

You claim that "the coming of our Lord" refers to the time period of AD 67-73? So then, in addition to your proof from Scripture or history about that visit, now explain what the "gathering" was and who was involved when Jesus came.

And your view STILL doesn't work, since v.3 clearly references the beast, aka a/c. So Jesus' coming CANNOT occur until AFTER the rebellion and the a/c is revealed.

Boom.

 

[FreeGrace2]

OldSage said:
I have explained what coming and gathering refer to.
Just read and absorb, and maybe try to respond in a more considered way

2 Thess 2 offers no cross references and neither does Zechariah 12 other than that connected to 'the one they've pierced.' Would you consider these to be speaking on the same topic?

He seems way more confused that I thought.

 

[OldSage]

But I'd like to see biblical evidence, or even historical evidence for your claim that Jesus came back to earth between AD 67-73.

Who on earth do you think avenges the blood of the prophets if it is not God?

 

[OldSage]

The "coming of the Lord" IS mentioned throughtout the NT, and in EVERY case refers to His Second Advent.

No, you've made that all up. Out of your own head FG.

 

[OldSage]

I don't need your condescension to understand the Bible. What you keep failing to do is clearly define each of the words, which you haven't done. Oh yes, you've been all over the map, but you need to narrow it down specifically.

You claim that "the coming of our Lord" refers to the time period of AD 67-73? So then, in addition to your proof from Scripture or history about that visit, now explain what the "gathering" was and who was involved when Jesus came.

And your view STILL doesn't work, since v.3 clearly references the beast, aka a/c. So Jesus' coming CANNOT occur until AFTER the rebellion and the a/c is revealed.

Boom.

No, you need my help, which is what I am giving you.
As you don't listen or understand concepts outside the bandwidth of what you have learned and refuse to
challenge or auto-critique, I have to try and help you to do that.
But there is only so much tutoring I can do. I have other much more urgent matters.