2 Thessalonians 2:3 "the departure" IS intentionally describing the RAPTURE.

[rayzor]

Just placing this other post I just made in a different there, here:

Post #17 - https://christianchat.com/threads/great-grace-departure-which-day.201630/post-4663909




[basically covering how certain SAME Greek words are used in DISTINCT *contexts*... where one should understand what the CONTEXT is, in each, or one would just come to "confused ends" if one were to simply blanketly APPLY them in the SAME WAY without regard to context (thus making a big mish-mash of mush, rather than coming to "understand")]

Greek is easy to read and by 4th grade most could get the context just like with English. Was not trying to paste the Greek words like that but the internet here is unstable, and went out before i could adjust it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I hadn't seen your post today... so my post was not directed to you in particular. = )

 

[Icedaisey]

Dear Icedaisy Post # 179
Thank you for your perfect example of how the carnal mind twists the meaning of God's word.
It is a clear indication that the heresy of pre-trib is backed into a corner it cannot escape from.
You know it's on it's death bed when carnal minded teachers strive over a single word or phrase to keep the lie alive.

The Apostle Paul said it would come down to this:
Remind them of these things, charging them before the Lord not to strive about words to no profit, to the ruin of the hearers. Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth. But shun profane and idle babblings, for they will increase to more ungodliness. And their message will spread like cancer. Hymenaeus and Philetus are of this sort, who have strayed concerning the truth, saying that the resurrection is already past; and they overthrow the faith of some. Nevertheless the solid foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of Christ depart from iniquity.”

The Lord Jesus Christ, the Apostle Paul and the Apostle John all testify that the falling away is a departure from truth.

In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established = Deut 19:15, Matt 18:16, 2 Cor 13:1

This other Faithful Witness is the Apostle John - He also wrote in full agreement to 2 Thessalonians 2:3

Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.
1 John 2:18-19

Three Faithful Witnesses, the LORD and Apostles Paul and John agree that the 'falling away' is not the rapture but a departure from Truth.
#1.) The LORD - "At that time many will fall away and will betray and hate one another" - Matt 24:10
#2.) Apostle Paul - "falling away first"
#3.) Apostle John - "they went out from us" -

#1.) The LORD - Abomination of Desolation - Matt 24:15
#2.) Apostle Paul - man of sin shall come first
#3.) Apostle John - the Antichrist is coming and we are already in the last hour for many antichrists are in the world

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who take refuge in Him.
Do not add to His words
Or He will rebuke you, and you will be proved a liar.
Proverbs 30:5-6

I think the carnal mind is that which believes the church will suffer the day of the Lord, the great tribulation.
Why would God, who predestined his Elect church for eternal irrevocable sealing by his Holy Spirit, and Salvation, destine us to suffer his wrath during the great tribulation?

There is also evidence early church fathers used Apostasis as, "departure", what we call rapture.

Justin Martyr in his work, Dialogue With Trypho, referred to the Antichrist as, the man of Apostasy.

Apostasis, departure, is the word and meaning intended to describe the Rapture in the work of Clement of Alexandria, entitled Stromateis.

Those father's knew the Greek words for Rapture. Solo, epairo, poreuomai, allasso, but did not employ them in those writings.

Did they have carnal minds that twisted the words of scripture I wonder.

We know the church will not suffer the day of the Lord, God's wrath, the great tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 5.

For those who prefer to disagree and envision that destiny for the church, so be it.

Though it is likely so because they may figure they'll be dead, having lived their earthly life unto its end and well before the great tribulation arrives.

 

[DavidTree]

There is also evidence early church fathers used Apostasis as, "departure", what we call rapture.

I think the carnal mind is that which believes the church will suffer the day of the Lord, the great tribulation.
Why would God, who predestined his Elect church for eternal irrevocable sealing by his Holy Spirit, and Salvation, destine us to suffer his wrath during the great tribulation?

There is also evidence early church fathers used Apostasis as, "departure", what we call rapture.

Justin Martyr in his work, Dialogue With Trypho, referred to the Antichrist as, the man of Apostasy.

Apostasis, departure, is the word and meaning intended to describe the Rapture in the work of Clement of Alexandria, entitled Stromateis.

Those father's knew the Greek words for Rapture. Solo, epairo, poreuomai, allasso, but did not employ them in those writings.

Did they have carnal minds that twisted the words of scripture I wonder.

We know the church will not suffer the day of the Lord, God's wrath, the great tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 5.

For those who prefer to disagree and envision that destiny for the church, so be it.

Though it is likely so because they may figure they'll be dead, having lived their earthly life unto its end and well before the great tribulation arrives.

i will take your words one sentence/thought at a time to show you the carnal mind.
1.) You said: "I think the carnal mind is that which believes the church will suffer the day of the Lord, the great tribulation."
Jesus said: Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name’s sake.
You said: Why would God, who predestined his Elect church for eternal irrevocable sealing by his Holy Spirit, and Salvation, destine us to suffer his wrath during the great tribulation?
Jesus said: And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Precious in the sight of the LORD is the death of his saints.

You said: There is also evidence early church fathers used Apostasis as, "departure", what we call rapture.
There is no such thing as the 'church fathers' there are only His Apostles, Prophets Evangelists Pastors and Teachers.
Christ is the Chief Cornerstone and upon Him His Church is built with the Apostles upon Him and so forth.

Apostle Paul said: Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition

Apostle John said: Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out,

Jesus said : And at that time many will fall away, and they will betray one another and hate one another.

You said: Justin Martyr in his work, Dialogue With Trypho, referred to the Antichrist as, the man of Apostasy.

The LORD and His Apostles Paul and John all said that the "falling away/apostacy/departure/went out from us"
These all fell away, went out from us, departed so that they may follow their christ - the Antichrist.
Just as the Holy Spirit calls God's Children unto Himself so also the spirit of antichrist calls the children of wrath unto their Antichrist who is the Son of Perdition.

You said We know the church will not suffer the day of the Lord, God's wrath, the great tribulation. 1 Thessalonians 5.
This what you said is TRUE - For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
His Coming is the Day of the Lord - This the Day the Lord has made, we will rejoice and be glad in it - Salvation Begins.
His Second Coming is also the Day of the Lord - Resurrection for the Righteous - Salvation Completed
Two Outcomes in His First Coming - Salvation and Condemnation - John 3:16-18
Two Outcomes in His Second Coming - Resurrection of the Just and Wrath upon the Antichrist and His Apostate children
His Coming is for His Bride/His Elect/His Saints
The Day of the Lord for Wrath upon the Antichrist and the children of wrath
SAME Day - TWO OUTCOMES

Always remember that the LORD and the Holy Spirit and the Scripture/Word cannot lie.

When JESUS said He is coming after the tribulation - believe Him
When the Apostle Paul said No rapture until the Resurrection and no Gathering until the Apostacy- believe what he said.
When the Apostle John said the Antichrist is coming and "they went out from us" - believe what he said.
When JESUS said in Revelation the Saints faced the Antichrist and overcame him by the Blood of the Lamb and the word of their testimony and they loved not their lives unto death - believe what JESUS says.
When JESUS said that there will be NO RESURRECTION until the number set forth by God of the death of His Saints - BELIEVE HIM.

When He opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony which they held. And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed.

And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished.
This is the first Resurrection.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first Resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.

 

[cv5]

My latest question to the post-tribbers was (as is usual) left unanswered, that being:

What is your estimate for the amount (a percentage estimate would be fine) of Christians who will be left alive at the end of the tribulation, this residual to be supposedly raptured?

By the sounds of it it's going to be a truly rarefied scintilla.......

Isa 13:12
I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold.

Yes....post-tribbers need to deal with Christians being nearly wiped out during the DOTL.

Thank God we pre-tribbers possess the 1Thes 5:8 helmet of the hope of salvation, knowing 1Thes 5:9 assures us that we shall in no wise suffer the wrath of the DOTL.

 

[walknlight]

What is your estimate for the amount (a percentage estimate would be fine) of Christians who will be left alive at the end of the tribulation, this residual to be supposedly raptured?

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

This applies to the "The Church"?

God bless!

 

[rayzor]

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

This applies to the "The Church"?

God bless!

But where is wisdom found?
because wisdom is not found in the land of the living!
man does not know the price.,,,,or said another way, how to die.

 

[rayzor]

My latest question to the post-tribbers was (as is usual) left unanswered, that being:

What is your estimate for the amount (a percentage estimate would be fine) of Christians who will be left alive at the end of the tribulation, this residual to be supposedly raptured?

By the sounds of it it's going to be a truly rarefied scintilla.......

I'll throw out a guess: one 3rd,,to be refined in the fire.I know you where not asking me.

 

[DavidTree]

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

This applies to the "The Church"?

God bless!

Read again

And out of the smoke, locusts descended on the earth, and they were given power like that of the scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. The locusts were not given power to kill them, but only to torment them for five months, and their torment was like the stinging of a scorpion. In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them.

 

[cv5]

I'll throw out a guess: one 3rd,,to be refined in the fire.I know you where not asking me.

You forgot the part about the mass martyrdom. Factor that into this third you're talking about.

 

[Icedaisey]

Isa 13:12
I will make a mortal more rare than fine gold.

Yes....post-tribbers need to deal with Christians being nearly wiped out during the DOTL.

Thank God we pre-tribbers possess the 1Thes 5:8 helmet of the hope of salvation, knowing 1Thes 5:9 assures us that we shall in no wise suffer the wrath of the DOTL.

I actually don't think there are that many genuine post-trib proponents here. I think they assume that position, as those who also assume the, God didn't predestine Salvation and the Lamb's Book of Life written before the foundation of the world story is a lie, because they want to incite Christians to become upset with their obstinate pov. And they also want to see just how long we'll labor to change minds that have absolutely no intention of changing, because their minds are made up to mock and troll Christians.

Seriously. It's so obvious. Who, when they claim the name of Christ, insists they're not a Christian according to God's plan having unfolded to include them before the foundation of the world? Nobody.

That's the biggest most stark neon yellow tell behind the whole argument those type people pursue.

They're anti-Gospel, as God laid out in it being predestined before the foundation of the world! BUT, they're an example God's plan works as planned because there they are telling us they're in Christ because it did work as planned. God called them and they responded because the call of God is spiritually discerned. Fallen people aren't able to hear. But those whom God predestined shall.

God saved his church through predestination of his plan. (And the Bible is full of prophecy! Which is, guess what, those things God predetermined would to occur!)

Same with the lot that insist post-tribulation rapture is reality in scripture. Who believes that when it isn't scripture in the first place?
When at the end of time it's all going to hit the fan, God is going to insure the church he saved suffers the great tribulation , his wrath! That he tells us he will pour onto a fallen rebellious world. Lets not forget in the midst of these discussions the 7 seals, bowls, vials.

So much for the church being saved, huh? Wrath, laid upon a rebellious fallen world. AND THE CHURCH IS THERE TOO! What fun! Salvation, NOT!

We'll suffer God's wrath on earth and then leave! Anyone read the description of the great tribulation? Does that sound like something the church God predestined to save would be found deserving by the God that saved them before he created THE WORLD!?

 

[cv5]

I actually don't think there are that many genuine post-trib proponents here. I think they assume that position, as those who also assume the, God didn't predestine Salvation and the Lamb's Book of Life written before the foundation of the world story is a lie, because they want to incite Christians to become upset with their obstinate pov. And they also want to see just how long we'll labor to change minds that have absolutely no intention of changing, because their minds are made up to mock and troll Christians.

Seriously. It's so obvious. Who, when they claim the name of Christ, insists they're not a Christian according to God's plan having unfolded to include them before the foundation of the world? Nobody.

That's the biggest most stark neon yellow tell behind the whole argument those type people pursue.

They're anti-Gospel, as God laid out in it being predestined before the foundation of the world! BUT, they're an example God's plan works as planned because there they are telling us they're in Christ because it did work as planned. God called them and they responded because the call of God is spiritually discerned. Fallen people aren't able to hear. But those whom God predestined shall.

God saved his church through predestination of his plan. (And the Bible is full of prophecy! Which is, guess what, those things God predetermined would to occur!)

Same with the lot that insist post-tribulation rapture is reality in scripture. Who believes that when it isn't scripture in the first place?
When at the end of time it's all going to hit the fan, God is going to insure the church he saved suffers the great tribulation , his wrath! That he tells us he will pour onto a fallen rebellious world. Lets not forget in the midst of these discussions the 7 seals, bowls, vials.

So much for the church being saved, huh? Wrath, laid upon a rebellious fallen world. AND THE CHURCH IS THERE TOO! What fun! Salvation, NOT!

We'll suffer God's wrath on earth and then leave! Anyone read the description of the great tribulation? Does that sound like something the church God predestined to save would be found deserving by the God that saved them before he created THE WORLD!?

Yes indeed. The post-tribbers doctrine makes God's tribulation wrath MUCH MUCH WORSE for Christians. I don't see that anywhere in any of Paul's writings....quite the contrary!

 

[DavidTree]

Rev 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

This applies to the "The Church"?

God bless!

What's His Church/His Elect/His Saints doing here anyway in Revelation chapter 9 - they were supposed to of been pre-trib raptured by now.

Crazy Crazy
don't be lazy
read it all
and do not fall
for what is Says
is IT's Pledge
not to lie
where sinful men die

 

[Icedaisey]

Yes indeed. The post-tribbers doctrine makes God's tribulation wrath MUCH MUCH WORSE for Christians. I don't see that anywhere in any of Paul's writings....quite the contrary!

Agreed. And quite to the contrary of Jesus words himself.
Matthew 24 tells us, if we read it within the knowledge gleaned and the assurance in Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith.
In that Ephesians verse alone we know we are saved from damnation as fallen sinners because we are redeemed in Christ as a new creation.
However, very often those prone to promoting insecurity in Salvation, which is an oxymoron, will insist verse 13 in Matthew 24, is telling us we must labor and work to retain our Salvation. But that's not true and we know this from the verse, one of many, in just Ephesians 2:8.

Rather, the truth is, what Jesus is telling us in Matthew 24 is what you and I and others here know and have been saying all along. Those who are in Christ, when the great tribulation is about to occur, shall be saved from suffering that. Those who endure to the end, we who are in Christ to that end times of the world, are going to be saved from it.

One of the best articles I've read, saved to favorites for some time now, is this. Linked Here.
Maybe it will open the eyes of those who cannot see as yet.
Prayerfully, it will halt the effort of those who willfully seek to mislead as well.

 

[DavidTree]

icedaisy said: "Rather, the truth is, what Jesus is telling us in Matthew 24 is what you and I and others here know and have been saying all along. Those who are in Christ, when the great tribulation is about to occur, shall be saved from suffering that. Those who endure to the end, we who are in Christ to that end times of the world, are going to be saved from it."

If what you are saying is true? Why is it that a pre-trib rapture has no place in Christ and cannot be found in any of His Words.

You know, just like you said: "when the great tribulation is about to occur, shall be saved from suffering that."

I mean, come on, how about just one verse where our Lord says: 'You shall not suffer the great tribulation'

What about the Apostle Paul? give us just one verse where he says - "we shall be pre-trib raptured before the Lord's Coming"

How about the Apostle John? can you give us just one verse where he says - 'we will not face the Antichrist, it will not happen until after we leave'

And please don't start that devilish BS where you change Scripture in 1 Thessalonians 2

When you embrace error, you will change Scripture so that it conforms to your error - God calls this falsehood, and from the evil one.

But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Matthew 5:37

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

How about the Apostle John? can you give us just one verse where he says - 'we will not face the Antichrist, it will not happen until after we leave'

In Revelation 5:9 the 24 elders (shown to be UP THERE) are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." and they are shown to be wearing "stephanous / crowns" which Paul had stated he will be awarded "IN THAT DAY" (NOT the day of his DEATH) and not to him only (2Tim4:8).

You, however, believe these "crowns" are awarded (and worn) PRIOR to that point in time (i.e. PRIOR TO "the BEMA of Christ"), like, even NOW.

How is that?




[by the way... John wrote Revelation as we see it says so in verse 1:1; Nowhere in Scripture does it STATE that John wrote the gospel we commonly CALL "John" or the three epistles labeled "John" also, according to "tradition," but not stated in Scripture anywhere; So I placed a passage from Revelation since the question pertained to "Apostle John" in particular ]

 

[DavidTree]

In Revelation 5:9 the 24 elders (shown to be UP THERE) are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." and they are shown to be wearing "stephanous / crowns" which Paul had stated he will be awarded "IN THAT DAY" (NOT the day of his DEATH) and not to him only (2Tim4:8).

You, however, believe these "crowns" are awarded (and worn) PRIOR to that point in time (i.e. PRIOR TO "the BEMA of Christ").

How is that?




[by the way... John wrote Revelation as we see it says so in verse 1:1; Nowhere in Scripture does it STATE that John wrote the gospel we commonly CALL "John" or the three epistles labeled "John" also, according to "tradition," but not stated in Scripture anywhere; So I place a passage from Revelation since the question pertained to "Apostle John" in particular ]

You like to "add to and take away from from God's word" - better go back and do some reading in Revelation about 'crowns'.

 

[DavidTree]

In Revelation 5:9 the 24 elders (shown to be UP THERE) are saying "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out-of EVERY..." and they are shown to be wearing "stephanous / crowns" which Paul had stated he will be awarded "IN THAT DAY" (NOT the day of his DEATH) and not to him only (2Tim4:8).

You, however, believe these "crowns" are awarded (and worn) PRIOR to that point in time (i.e. PRIOR TO "the BEMA of Christ"), like, even NOW.

How is that?




[by the way... John wrote Revelation as we see it says so in verse 1:1; Nowhere in Scripture does it STATE that John wrote the gospel we commonly CALL "John" or the three epistles labeled "John" also, according to "tradition," but not stated in Scripture anywhere; So I placed a passage from Revelation since the question pertained to "Apostle John" in particular ]

Rip those pages out of your Bible then and you can rewrite scripture, which you like to do, and get your pre-trib error in there.
Then you can be confident that there is a pre-trib rapture, at least somewhere.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

You like to "add to and take away from from God's word" - better go back and do some reading in Revelation about 'crowns'.

I did and I have.


As I stated in past posts, the following two references are stated within chpts 2-3, in "the things WHICH ARE" section (per Rev1:19b);

Whereas our passage under discussion (Rev4:4 / 5:9) is in "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" section (per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 - the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, which take place "AFTER THESE THINGS" of chpts 2-3 which are "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said of THEM that they are "things which must take place IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" as the FUTURE ASPECTS of the Book ARE said to do [/be])

 

[DavidTree]

I did and I have.


As I stated in past posts, the following two references are stated within chpts 2-3, in "the things WHICH ARE" section (per Rev1:19b);

Whereas our passage under discussion (Rev4:4 / 5:9) is in "the things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" section (per Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 - the "FUTURE" aspects of the Book, which take place "AFTER THESE THINGS" of chpts 2-3 which are "the things WHICH ARE" which are NOT said of THEM that they are "things which must take place IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" as the FUTURE ASPECTS of the Book ARE said to do [/be])

Well then go find the crown(s) in Rev ch 2-ch 3