Israel.

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Gideon300

Well-known member
Mar 18, 2021
6,172
3,839
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Frankston, Victoria
christianlife.au
#21
Hearing and then seeing is a theme in Revelation.

Earlier in the same book, John records this passage:

“Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?”
But no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth could open the scroll or even look inside it.
I wept and wept because no one was found who was worthy to open the scroll or look inside. 5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! See, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll and its seven seals.”


While John is weeping, the elder says to him "See, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah..."
John hears "Look, the Lion!" One would expect to see some type of a lion.

But then John turns to look and he sees this:

"Then I saw a Lamb, looking as if it had been slain..."

Hears "Look a lion!" -> Sees a lamb that looked like it had been slain.
Now, we know that the lion and the lamb refer to neither animal but to a specific person: Christ Jesus.

This pattern is also relevant to the passage in Revelation 7.

John hears the number of those who were sealed;

Revelation 7 "Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel."

And then the number from each tribe is enumerated:

"From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad... etc."


Notice, this was to be a list from "all the tribes of Israel" yet it is not: Dan is missing and Mannasseh, one of Joseph's sons, is added.
So, just from the text (and excluding any religious gymnastics) we should know that this is NOT a list of the physical tribes of Israel.

This is something else.

But let's continue...

So John hears "144,000 from the tribes of Israel!" (a specific number and specific types of people) and then he looks and sees...

"After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb."

...he sees a great multitude no one could count.

I could write nearly a page for every sentence above but let me conclude this:

Revelation 7 requires wisdom to understand, like the rest of the book. This is not a count of 144,000 Jews. It is something else.
If not Jews, who?
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
9,041
3,362
113
#22
God works where people are looking.

This prophesy still hangs over them:

But I ask, did they not hear? Indeed they did:
“Their voice has gone out into all the earth,
their words to the ends of the world.”
I ask instead, did Israel not understand? First, Moses says:
“I will make you jealous by those who are not a nation;
I will make you angry by a nation without understanding.”


The Jews are not currently jealous of believers: they are using them to advance their own political agendas.

I look for the people who currently reside in the region called "Palestine" to be those who move Israel to jealousy. I am not talking about Hamas or any other terrorist group... the people.
I do believe these verses were fulfilled in the first century as the gentiles they being not a particular nation, but I will need to formulate my response more fully to demonstrate why I believe it to be so.

Paul reiterates it in Romans 10:19.