Concerning the gift of tongues

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ocean

Active member
Oct 15, 2024
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What you don't know is that this is the president of the CDSC (Calvinist Derangment Syndrome Cult) here. If you knew how bad they hate Calvin to the point they falsely call others Calvinist who are not Calvinist just to have someone to fight with. This person hates John Calvin more than anyone I've ever seen, and I think it's great you call them a Calvinist after all the people they've done it to.
He has not denied being one himself even though I asked twice. I don't think he hates Calvin since his "love for others" is most equal to the love of that old Catholic Calvin himself. I am truly surprised by what you say above. Its interesting though because I would not have asked the question of him if he had not put me in mind that was his persuasion. The smooth twisting of people's words and taking verses out of context no doubt encouraged me in that direction. And the sarcasm when all else fails. Yup

Glad to have afforded you a laugh though ;)
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
5,049
1,078
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USA-TX
What you don't know is that this is the president of the CDSC (Calvinist Derangment Syndrome Cult) here. If you knew how bad they hate Calvin to the point they falsely call others Calvinist who are not Calvinist just to have someone to fight with. This person hates John Calvin more than anyone I've ever seen, and I think it's great you call them a Calvinist after all the people they've done it to.
Now the joke is on you more than it was on Ocean!
I am the president of the GLEA Club (God loves everyone and--so should we).
IOW, the HTSBLTS (hate the sin but love the sinner, including Satan) Club.

And the astute among us will realize that I have stopped referring to Calvinism
and have begun calling the part I disagree with TULIPism.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
5,049
1,078
113
USA-TX
He has not denied being one himself even though I asked twice. I don't think he hates Calvin since his "love for others" is most equal to the love of that old Catholic Calvin himself. I am truly surprised by what you say above. Its interesting though because I would not have asked the question of him if he had not put me in mind that was his persuasion. The smooth twisting of people's words and taking verses out of context no doubt encouraged me in that direction. And the sarcasm when all else fails. Yup

Glad to have afforded you a laugh though ;)
Good catch, Ocean. I was waiting to deny being a Calvinist in order to see if anyone would catch that you had called me that.
But now I confess to loving everyone, although that is not what TULIP teaches.
Please see what I just posted to Jimbone.
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,958
3,684
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What must be asked is "What must I do to be saved?" (Matt. 7:7, Acts 16:30)
The answer is "Accept Jesus as Messiah and Lord." (Acts 16:31, Col. 2:6, John 6:29)
The result is that Christ's HS indwells believers, (Rev. 3:20, John 14:18, Rom. 5:5)
baptizing them into the spiritual body of Christ, (1Cor. 12:30, Rom. 8:9)
producing loving fruit as they persevere in saving faith (Matt. 7:16-17, Gal. 5:22-23, 1 Thes, 1:3)
and motivating them to grow toward moral maturity. (Phil. 3:7-20, Heb. 6:1-12)
Have you ever done a Biblical (NOT commentaries) research deep dive on the Holy Spirit?

- Search the words “Holy Spirit” “Holy Ghost” and “Spirit”

- Then, read ALL the scriptures that pop up under that search.

- Pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ and ask for the Truth concerning the Holy Spirit, then reread all the scriptures again slowly.

- Ponder, meditate and engage God in a back and forth conversation, asking Him sincere humble questions about the Holy Spirit.

- Lastly, praise and give thanks to God for how wonderfully He has opened your spiritual eyes and ears to His Truth.

Then, come back and share with us all that God has given you. Enjoy! :love:
 

Lafftur

Senior Member
Apr 18, 2017
6,958
3,684
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I see that all the time in my church family.... generally not in the assembly, where we have a designated speaker give a lesson from scripture, but we have others that will be in front of the assembled body to read a scripture and comment, or to lead prayers, especially prior to partaking in communion, the Lord's supper....
Generally we do not look at this as a "miraculous" gift of the Spirit, but more in line with Spiritual gifts that are given to believers as is needed for that particular body of believers.
We have people that are "gifted" with being good listeners, and others that are gifted with being very wise in making decisions, and counseling others in times of struggle...
We have people that worship/sing with hands raised, eyes closed, completely immersed in it... are they praying in tongues? I don't know, but if they are, it is between them and God.
Nobody needs to "see" miraculous tongues being spoken.... that is a sign for unbelievers.... and I believe it was used only at "foundation" moments in church history... I do not think it is "needed" in our worship service.

If a believer was trying to start a "church" somewhere, where there were no believers, then miraculous tongues could serve as "proof" that the Spirit is present... but if a body of believers feels the need to have constant proof that the Spirit is there, then I would have questions about their maturity and understanding...
I understand that what you have said is perfect human common sense and there are scriptures that can back it up but, I’ve learned God oftentimes will do something foolish to confound the wise.

I don’t think God’s definition of “decently and in order” is the same as ours. God does whatever is needed to be done at the time to bring life, set captives free, heal on the Sabbath, speak to a Samaritan woman, resist and humble the proud, and on and on….

Just when we think we have figured out everything there is to know and understand about any of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, we find out there is MORE to know and understand… God is amazing!
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
5,049
1,078
113
USA-TX
Have you ever done a Biblical (NOT commentaries) research deep dive on the Holy Spirit?

- Search the words “Holy Spirit” “Holy Ghost” and “Spirit”

- Then, read ALL the scriptures that pop up under that search.

- Pray to the Father in the Name of Jesus Christ and ask for the Truth concerning the Holy Spirit, then reread all the scriptures again slowly.

- Ponder, meditate and engage God in a back and forth conversation, asking Him sincere humble questions about the Holy Spirit.

- Lastly, praise and give thanks to God for how wonderfully He has opened your spiritual eyes and ears to His Truth.

Then, come back and share with us all that God has given you. Enjoy! :love:
I have read all of the Bible in four versions (NEV, TEV, NIV, ASB) making margin notes,
and I have made the results available on the website <truthseekersfellowship.com>

Since joining CC I have begun calling it OUR website and offer to consider contributions from folks,
if they follow the parameters I share on my profile.

Before joining CC I had enumerated the TOJ, and since joining CC I enumerated the TOP.
I am currently working from the posts by Brightfame to create a lesson on the HS.
Would you like to submit something on the HS?
 

randyk

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2021
1,012
287
83
Pacific NW USA
We are commanded to share the truth in love. The ultimate goal is to help, not hurt anyone.

Consider the fact that the detailed conversion accounts In Scripture reveal 100% spoke in tongues upon receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 33, 10:44-45, 19:6)
The Scriptural account did not establish a *doctrine* that all should speak in tongues, even though at the initial outpouring of the Spirit all did indeed speak in tongues in the Upper Room or outside it. So this Scriptural account has a specific context, which does not set a precefdent for normal Christian experience.

It was a unique event--I say that because it did not continue as such in the future. Only on limited occasions did it happen.

We are never told that it didn't happen at other times due to disobedience. Only that some forbade speaking in tongues or discouraged it.

So what do the Scriptures actually teach on this? It doesn't teach a doctrine at all in Acts 2 or on the Day of Pentecost, except that accepting Jesus as Messiah brings eternal Salvation. Tongues were a supernatural manifestation attesting to this truth.

What do Scriptures teach on tongues? We are taught elsewhere that Tongues should not be forbidden, that it is a gift of the Spirit given to some, but not to all. It is not a common "Prayer Langage" as Pentecostals teach.

We are taught that in community the tongues speakers should resist being demonstrable and rely more on interpretation in the common vernacular. It continues to manifest supernatural experience both in private, among some, and in community under certain restraints.
 

Wansvic

Well-known member
Nov 27, 2018
5,471
1,189
113
The Scriptural account did not establish a *doctrine* that all should speak in tongues, even though at the initial outpouring of the Spirit all did indeed speak in tongues in the Upper Room or outside it. So this Scriptural account has a specific context, which does not set a precefdent for normal Christian experience.

It was a unique event--I say that because it did not continue as such in the future. Only on limited occasions did it happen.

We are never told that it didn't happen at other times due to disobedience. Only that some forbade speaking in tongues or discouraged it.

So what do the Scriptures actually teach on this? It doesn't teach a doctrine at all in Acts 2 or on the Day of Pentecost, except that accepting Jesus as Messiah brings eternal Salvation. Tongues were a supernatural manifestation attesting to this truth.

What do Scriptures teach on tongues? We are taught elsewhere that Tongues should not be forbidden, that it is a gift of the Spirit given to some, but not to all. It is not a common "Prayer Langage" as Pentecostals teach.

We are taught that in community the tongues speakers should resist being demonstrable and rely more on interpretation in the common vernacular. It continues to manifest supernatural experience both in private, among some, and in community under certain restraints.
As mentioned, God established speaking in tongues for difference purposes. One as evidence the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost. (100%) And the other as a means of presenting God's message requiring interpretation for a group of believers. (not all operate in these gifts)

In Acts 2, those hearing people speak in languages ask what it means. Some marvel at the miracle, while others mock.
Peter gave a direct answer. This is that which was prophesied by Joel. "This" the "speaking in tongues" that you are now seeing and hearing is what Joel prophesied about. The prophecy is specific, in the last days I will pour out my Spirit. In other words, when you see someone speaking in tongues it means they have received the Holy Spirit as prophesied by Joel.

Some ask, If speaking in tongues is the evidence that accompanies receiving of the Holy Spirit, why doesn't the Bible just plainly say so? The Bible actually does say it plainly; in story form. When the question was asked, what does this speaking in tongues mean? Peter gives them a direct answer straight from Joel's prophecy. So, when you see someone speaking in tongues you know they have received the Holy Spirit.

Five places describe someone actually receiving the Holy Spirit to enter the NT church.

Acts 2, 10, and 19 set the pattern. Each confirms speaking in tongues is the direct evidence of the initial indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 10 - they heard them speak in tongues. That experience confirmed to Peter and others that the individuals had actually received the Holy Spirit. And as seen elsewhere in scripture nothing other than tongues confirms the initial experience; not believing in Jesus, saying a sinner's prayer, or having strong feelings, etc.

Acts 11 - Peter gives an account of what occurred in Acts 10. He indicates the people spoke in tongues proving they had received the Holy Spirit and as such God intended they be water baptized in the name of Jesus as well.

Acts 19:6-7 (This is the last detailed account some 20+ years after the witness of the truth revealed at Pentecost)
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.
And all the men were about twelve.


A Visible Sign of the Invisible:

Acts 8 - Confirms receiving the Holy Spirit is identifiable.
How could the people be so sure that those who believed and were water baptized had not received the Holy Spirit? And what made the people so sure that the experience had occurred a few days later? (Acts 8:14-19)

Clearly it was not just the laying on of hands that proved the experience occurred. Simon wanted to buy the ability to do what he witnessed when the apostles laid hands on the people. Think about it. There's no need to pay to have the ability to lay hands on a person. It is clear he wanted to buy the power to demonstrate the receiving of the Holy Spirit.

(There must have been a definite, supernatural
sign for Simon the Magician to be impressed enough to
desire it. Simon apparently wanted to buy and use this
miracle in his magical shows; he desired the power to lay
hands on people and have the miraculous sign manifest
itself.) New Birth-Bernard

As revealed elsewhere in scripture, speaking in tongues is the visible sign God chose to reveal when the invisible Holy Spirit initially enters one's body.

God chose the sign. And He certainly does not have to explain Himself. However, some biblical records point to the possible reason why He did it.

1. Tower of Babel = God used tongues as a means to separate people who were disobedient. A reversal of this is seen at Pentecost. God is bringing people back into one body - into unity.

2. James 3 - reveals human beings cannot tame the unruly tongue. However, God can and does when people submit to Him. Speaking in tongues is a conscious act of surrender.

3. There are many external signs when the Holy Spirit is present in an area. As to Pentecost, the wind indicated the Holy Spirit had arrived in the upper room. And flaming tongues sat atop each person revealing that what was about to happen was for all individually.

Speaking in tongues is different in that the sign comes from the inside out after God has taken up residence in one's body.