Beloved!!!

[yoej_ogart]

If you haven't read or heard about Oral Roberts' book, 'When You See The Invisible, You Can Do The Impossible' then I suggest you check it out or at least Google it...

Anyways! I'd like to just drop by and remind you guys NOT to let that spirit of condemnation or that loss of confidence in your soul to continue living. I say to you right now to chop its head off er somethin! If you are not just "trying" to do what He wants but are doing it then He is already so proud of you!! I read this morning something out of that book and this is what I want you to know too..

"I assure you that failure, loss, and defeat need not stop your calling or even seriously hinder it. You have seed to sow. Go ahead and sow it by faith. Look to God to grow your seed sown, trust Him as your Source, expect a miracle harvest, and you will see what God will do."

My friends, we must come BOLDLY to the throne of grace so that we may receive mercy in our time of need!(Heb. 4:16)

Now, what seed to sow? Well that just depends on what you're in need of; what you had lost. You gotta sow for an equivalent benefit! Like, me for instance, I am seeking to God for confidence in my calling. That I am able to know that I can do it! So, I will sow confidence in God that He is my all in all, He will provide this, do that, love me forever, ecs ecs. Get it? I hope so.. Took me about 45 min. to get the "equivalent benefit" thing haha

 

[Ugly]

Hmm.. won't be going near this book. Word of Faith heresy. I suggest staying away from anything by him.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I concur with Ugly.

Stay away from Oral Roberts and the whole Charismania group.

 

[yoej_ogart]

With all due respect, I will not stay away from him. I knew the man and he has inspired me very much. He is a man of God, who has seen His wonders and if you close him out then I'm sorry to say but you're abnormal. That was God's son who was filled with the Spirit, dude.

 

[Kyouken]

I figure it would be good to know this:
What exactly is the Word of Faith heresy? I think this is the first time I've heard of that; it doesn't ring any bells.

 

[jimmydiggs]

With all due respect, I will not stay away from him.

You do so at your own risk.

 

[jimmydiggs]

I figure it would be good to know this:
What exactly is the Word of Faith heresy? I think this is the first time I've heard of that; it doesn't ring any bells.

Good summary.

 

[yoej_ogart]

Are you serious?? THAT is what you would summarize Oral Roberts' system as?? That is ridiculous. Word of Faith heresy is a lame thing to put out there. Yes, it does seem so but when you are running a business that is directly for God then YES, my friend, God will provide financially and will have to. Yes, too, money isnt everything but because we live in a world that requires it when buying, investing, ecs, God will let us prosper with it according to our specific call!

 

[Ugly]

I figure it would be good to know this:
What exactly is the Word of Faith heresy? I think this is the first time I've heard of that; it doesn't ring any bells.

Word of Faith teachings focus one prosperity. But teach many things much worse. Lets bullet point some common WOF teaching by some of the most popular teachers of this heresy.

-God is about 6'2" and weighs 'a couple hundred pounds'
-Have faith in faith, not faith in God
-Faith is a physical substance
-You use the 'force of faith' to create into existence that BMW, or yacht you want
-God used His 'faith' to speak earth and all creation into existence (power of words)
-humanity are all 'gods' since we are made in Gods image
-man had so much power God could do nothing on earth without mans permission
-Adam and Eve sold their godhood to Satan in the garden, making Satan the god of this world
-They were also infused with Satans nature making Adam the 'first born-again man' having been born of both divine and Satans nature
-God was then banished from Earth and searching for a way back into Earth
-Needed mans invitation to get back into earth
-God 'visualized' a 'new Adam' and spoke into existence this 'Savior'
-Jesus was rich, designer clothes, mansion and a treasurer to keep track of all his money
-Jesus spoke things into existence through 'positive confession'
-JESUS NEVER CLAIMED TO BE GOD
-Jesus died spiritually on the cross
-Jesus was dragged to hell and tormented after his death
-'The lamb became a serpent' on the Cross
-''Satan and his demonic hosts had tortured the emaciated, poured out, little wormy spirit of Christ without legal rights''
-Jesus emerged from hell as a born again man


This is just a composite of some of the teachings my many of the most famous WOF preachers out today. And if you're wondering who teaches some of these things..
Joel Osten
Joyce Meyer
Creflo Dollar
Benny Hinn
Kenneth Copeland
Kenneth Hagin
Fredrick K. C. Price
Myles Munroe
T. D. Jakes
Paula White
JUanita Bynum
John Hagee
Paul and Jan Crouch
Rod Parsley
John Avanini
Robert Tilton
Marylin Hickey
Charles Capps
Jerry Sevile
Morris Cerullo
Todd Bentley
E. W. Kenyon
and of course... Oral Roberts

 

[lil_christian]

Word of Faith teachings focus one prosperity. But teach many things much worse. Lets bullet point some common WOF teaching by some of the most popular teachers of this heresy.

-God is about 6'2" and weighs 'a couple hundred pounds'
-Have faith in faith, not faith in God
-Faith is a physical substance
-You use the 'force of faith' to create into existence that BMW, or yacht you want
-God used His 'faith' to speak earth and all creation into existence (power of words)
-humanity are all 'gods' since we are made in Gods image
-man had so much power God could do nothing on earth without mans permission
-Adam and Eve sold their godhood to Satan in the garden, making Satan the god of this world
-They were also infused with Satans nature making Adam the 'first born-again man' having been born of both divine and Satans nature
-God was then banished from Earth and searching for a way back into Earth
-Needed mans invitation to get back into earth
-God 'visualized' a 'new Adam' and spoke into existence this 'Savior'
-Jesus was rich, designer clothes, mansion and a treasurer to keep track of all his money
-Jesus spoke things into existence through 'positive confession'
-JESUS NEVER CLAIMED TO BE GOD
-Jesus died spiritually on the cross
-Jesus was dragged to hell and tormented after his death
-'The lamb became a serpent' on the Cross
-''Satan and his demonic hosts had tortured the emaciated, poured out, little wormy spirit of Christ without legal rights''
-Jesus emerged from hell as a born again man

And where exactly did you get these points? If you're just listening to the stereotype then what good is that? Everything is stereotyped. You gotta get past those stereotyped and actually look INTO what they ACTUALLY believe.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not Word of Faith or Pentecostal...I'm non-denominational and I don't go by labels. I go by what God has given me in His Word.

 

[lil_christian]

Another disclaimer is, I haven't really looked into the Word of Faith doctrine. To me it just sounds like they're proclaiming the Word of God. And word of faith is mentioned in the Bible...it might not be THEIR word of faith though.

Romans 10:8-10

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

If that is the Word of Faith doctrine, then I'd believe it.

Far as the name it and claim it thing? The only thing we should really claim is God's promises for our lives. Like in the Bible, it says God will not forsake us.

Far as riches go? Don't love money...it's not wrong to have money...just don't put it before God.

Some of those are just straight up weird and I don't know how to reply to them.

 

[jimmydiggs]

And where exactly did you get these points?

It's widely available with a google search.

I'll help you though.

Word Of Faith Movement <--- click

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical? <--- click

What Is the Word of Faith Movement? <--- click

If you're just listening to the stereotype then what good is that?

Most stereotypes are rooted in truth.

Everything is stereotyped.

That's a stereotype. What's your source?

You gotta get past those stereotyped and actually look INTO what they ACTUALLY believe.

Straight from the horses mouth.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmMih5jnR7Q[/video]

DISCLAIMER: I'm not Word of Faith or Pentecostal...

Need to know what it is to say you're not.

I'm non-denominational and I don't go by labels.

"Non-Denominational is a label, get real.

 

[Ugly]

And where exactly did you get these points? If you're just listening to the stereotype then what good is that? Everything is stereotyped. You gotta get past those stereotyped and actually look INTO what they ACTUALLY believe.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not Word of Faith or Pentecostal...I'm non-denominational and I don't go by labels. I go by what God has given me in His Word.

Those bullet points all come directly from the mouths of worth of faith preachers. These are documented quotes and not 'stereotyping'.

If you have any real interest in learning, and not to just criticize doubt and question others who have learned, then a good book to read is ~~> http://www.amazon.com/Christianity-...1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1329361378&sr=1-1-spell

 

[Kyouken]

Let me try and sum it up to see if I understand this 'Word of Faith' stuff:

'Blab it grab it; name it claim it'
I may even go so far as to say 'faith moves God'.

Is that pretty much the Word of Faith teaching, or did I miss it?

And lil_christian...

Thank you. We may not be thinking the exact same things, but I think I see what you're getting at.

 

[Ugly]

Basically, yes. God is our bellhop. We speak, 'activating' our faith, through the power of our confession, and the substance of faith reacts and God somehow in all this grants us our desires. No matter how selfish and frivolous.

 

[lil_christian]

It's widely available with a google search.

I'll help you though.

Word Of Faith Movement <--- click

Is the Word of Faith movement biblical? <--- click

What Is the Word of Faith Movement? <--- click

Thanks but that last link I'm having an issue with. It's not because Romans 9 is taken out of context but that does bug me, but it says:

"Hell (Gehenna) is not the seat of Satan's government. Hell is currently unoccupied. Hell is a place of punishment and torment where Satan, demons, and the unregenerate will eventually be cast."

Umm what? I'm not sure about some of what they say. That sounds just as weird, if not weirder than word of faith.

Most stereotypes are rooted in truth.

They can be...but thing about stereotypes is, they blow that truth out of proportion.

That's a stereotype. What's your source?

Life. All ya gotta do is turn on the TV and you find some sort of stereotype.

Straight from the horses mouth.

[video]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmMih5jnR7Q[/video]

Thank you. I'll watch it in my spare time.

Need to know what it is to say you're not.

'scuse me? My mom has told me what a Pentecostal-Charismatic church is like. She used to go to one. I'm not Pentecostal. and if word of Faith is what you guys are saying it is, then I don't believe it either.

"Non-Denominational is a label, get real.

To you, maybe. To me, no. Non-denominational is just that. It's not necessarily an actual label.

 

[jimmydiggs]

Thanks but that last link I'm having an issue with. It's not because Romans 9 is taken out of context but that does bug me, but it says:

Romans 9 was not taken out of context. Even my roommate who didn't like the idea of Reprobation conceded on this matter. He asked me about my beliefs as a Calvinist regarding the Doctrine of Reprobation. I explained it, and he stated quite simply that he didn't like the idea of it at all. I said while there were many verses that attest to it, the most obvious is Romans 9. I told him I was just going to read Romans 9 out loud, and he could figure it out on his own. I read it out loud, and as he was sitting there while I was reading I watched his face change, he began to squirm in his chair and definately was in that mindset of "I really don't like this, but that sounds obvious", and he conceded that Romans 9 was rather clear. He, however, did say that he thought he should talk to other people on the matter.

It was an amazing night, because he admitted that it's plainly spelled out in the text.

19 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” 20 But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? 22 What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, 23 in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— 24 even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles? 25 As indeed he says in Hosea,

There are congregations, that all you have to do is read Romans 9 and people will leave the church and never come back again. Humans do not want to submit that they are not autonomous. Interestingly enough, that is the same sin that Satan fell to, and it's the lie that he tries to tell us. "You can be autonomous from God! Be a god of your own making!"


I hated Calvinism. Then, I quit trying to manipulate scripture, read the bible, and submitted unto God.

"Hell (Gehenna) is not the seat of Satan's government. Hell is currently unoccupied. Hell is a place of punishment and torment where Satan, demons, and the unregenerate will eventually be cast."

Is the Devil in hell right now?

Umm what? I'm not sure about some of what they say. That sounds just as weird, if not weirder than word of faith.

Where does the devil "rule from?"

They can be...but thing about stereotypes is, they blow that truth out of proportion.


Life. All ya gotta do is turn on the TV and you find some sort of stereotype.

Contradictory, but it's not important at this point.

Thank you. I'll watch it in my spare time.

It's ten minutes.

To you, maybe. To me, no. Non-denominational is just that. It's not necessarily an actual label.

I guess then, saying I'm a Reformed Baptist Christian who attends a Southern Baptist Convention affiliated church, by the name of Red Star Baptist Church, has no labels in the statement, right? Since we can do this whole postmodernism "true for you, but not me" intellectual garbage.

If you say you are a Christian, you have accepted a label. Any time you describe yourself, with terms, or with descriptive statements, you label yourself. It's just the way it works my friend.

 

[lil_christian]

Romans 9 was not taken out of context. Even my roommate who didn't like the idea of Reprobation conceded on this matter. He asked me about my beliefs as a Calvinist regarding the Doctrine of Reprobation. I explained it, and he stated quite simply that he didn't like the idea of it at all. I said while there were many verses that attest to it, the most obvious is Romans 9. I told him I was just going to read Romans 9 out loud, and he could figure it out on his own. I read it out loud, and as he was sitting there while I was reading I watched his face change, he began to squirm in his chair and definately was in that mindset of "I really don't like this, but that sounds obvious", and he conceded that Romans 9 was rather clear. He, however, did say that he thought he should talk to other people on the matter.

It was an amazing night, because he admitted that it's plainly spelled out in the text.

It was an amazing night just because he said he's wrong and you're right. Pfft. Romans 9 has a lot of underlying meaning to it. I don't disagree that God has the power to do what He wants. But I think it takes a lot before God hardens someone's heart.

There are congregations, that all you have to do is read Romans 9 and people will leave the church and never come back again. Humans do not want to submit that they are not autonomous. Interestingly enough, that is the same sin that Satan fell to, and it's the lie that he tries to tell us. "You can be autonomous from God! Be a god of your own making!"

Humans don't want to submit? I've said it once and I'll say it again. Just because you have the free will to accept DOES NOT MEAN man is superior or Sovereign or over God. Okay, once you make the decision, you let Him be Lord of your life. You have to submit to Him daily. Repent. More of Jesus, less of me. Trusting Him with everything. THAT is submitting.

I hated Calvinism. Then, I quit trying to manipulate scripture, read the bible, and submitted unto God.

I could say SO much on that right there mainly because it's contradicted what you've tried to argue with me in the past.

Is the Devil in hell right now?

Who knows? I sure don't think he's in heaven.

Where does the devil "rule from?"

He doesn't rule. Simple as that. Satan has to get permission from God to do anything.

It's ten minutes.

Sometimes people don't have ten minutes.

I guess then, saying I'm a Reformed Baptist Christian who attends a Southern Baptist Convention affiliated church, by the name of Red Star Baptist Church, has no labels in the statement, right? Since we can do this whole postmodernism "true for you, but not me" intellectual garbage.


If you say you are a Christian, you have accepted a label. Any time you describe yourself, with terms, or with descriptive statements, you label yourself.

You're just making piddly arguments. ...WHY? *sigh* I don't even know why I'm bothering with you.

It's just the way it works my friend.

Oh so when you want to make a point I'm your friend? Uh. No.

Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean you need to be nasty or anything. I've been patient with you. But I'm not going to be trampled on by you. Okay I've read Romans 9. and you know what? I believe it has nothing to do with Calvinism. It has to do with Israel. I don't think that Romans 9 can stand alone. Romans 9 makes a lot more sense when you read 9-11. I know that may be a lot to read, but that's actually the whole context. You can't just make the chapter itself stand alone, let alone the verses that claim to teach Calvinism. Romans 9 can be tricky to interpret alone. You have to look at the chapters before it and after it. Heck you gotta look at BOOKS before it. That's just how it is for me.

Okay I don't hate anything. I simply don't agree with it. And you may say "Well people don't like or agree with the truth." well there's a difference between seeing the truth and disagreeing with it and seeing something false and saying I don't agree with it. All throughout the Bible there is free-will. It's not to say God is not Sovereign. God DOES rule. He is superior over us. But God did not take away the will to accept His grace or not. Okay if God really did have to choose, He'd choose no one. Because no person is more qualified than the other. We are all sinners in God's eyes. That's why Jesus came. So God wouldn't have to condemn us. God had MERCY on us. He sent His Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus made His move on the cross. Now it's our move. And then once we say yes (and once again...saying yes doesn't save me. Jesus is the One that saves me), we submit to God. And walking with God is about submitting to His will daily, repenting, talking with Him, and reading what He has to say to us...now that isn't what makes you saved or else that would be a work-based faith. But those things are important to maintaining a healthy relationship with God.

I know I repeated some things. But they're important points.

 

[Kyouken]

Basically, yes. God is our bellhop. We speak, 'activating' our faith, through the power of our confession, and the substance of faith reacts and God somehow in all this grants us our desires. No matter how selfish and frivolous.

Thanks, Ugly, and JimmyDiggs, for explaining this to me. I'll have fun combating this one.

 

[yoej_ogart]

Another disclaimer is, I haven't really looked into the Word of Faith doctrine. To me it just sounds like they're proclaiming the Word of God. And word of faith is mentioned in the Bible...it might not be THEIR word of faith though.

Romans 10:8-10

New American Standard Bible (NASB)

8 But what does it say? “THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

If that is the Word of Faith doctrine, then I'd believe it.

Far as the name it and claim it thing? The only thing we should really claim is God's promises for our lives. Like in the Bible, it says God will not forsake us.

Far as riches go? Don't love money...it's not wrong to have money...just don't put it before God.

Some of those are just straight up weird and I don't know how to reply to them.

AMEN sister.