Atonement
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Limited Atonement cannot be supported by John 6:38 either.
For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
However, many other verses clearly tell us the Father's will, which is THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND. So Limited Atonement makes God a liar.
All of the scriptures must harmonize to understand the doctrine that Jesus taught and I have attempted to explain your SALVATION FOR ALL MANKIND scriptures, so give me the same courtesy.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
Limited atonement can't be supported by scripture period.
Show me one scripture that says that the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross is not sufficient for all.
I go as far as to say that limited atonement may very well be blasphemy. I think it robs the value of the sacrifice of Jesus, and lays blame for the lost at the feet of God. I think it's an attempt to make God into a moral monster that would create sentient eternal beings for the purpose of tormenting them forever.
When to the contrary it is stated over And over that God is not willing that any should perish
Show me one scripture that says that the sacrifice that Christ made on the cross is not sufficient for all.
I go as far as to say that limited atonement may very well be blasphemy. I think it robs the value of the sacrifice of Jesus, and lays blame for the lost at the feet of God. I think it's an attempt to make God into a moral monster that would create sentient eternal beings for the purpose of tormenting them forever.
When to the contrary it is stated over And over that God is not willing that any should perish
You cannot explain what you do not understand. You cannot teach what you have not learned.
The blood of Christ is sufficient to atone for all the sins of man. The blood of Christ is only efficacious to those who believe and receive the atonement God has provided by grace.
To endeavor to limit the atonement of Christ is to endeavor to limit the sovereignty of God.
For the cause of Christ
Roger
That is likely because verse 38 does not speak of "limited atonement" , also called "substitutionary atonement".
38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me.
But you have not done that.
Do us the courtesy please of understanding that many of us, if not all, recall your arguments to the contrary of what you have affirmed above now.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
So you have decided to carry on a conversation from another thread by starting a new thread?
Why would someone do that?
Roger, I think that you are smart enough with your grammar to read John 6:38 and see that it does not include all mankind. If it did include all mankind, then all mankind would be raised up at the last day, and I don't think you would agree with that.
Because no one can explain John 6:38 to include all mankind. Everyone avoids explaining the particular verse and "skirts around it" without making an attempt to explain it, as you have done. They always quote other verses that they think contradicts it, but I have attempted to explain all of said such verses. I would just like for someone to take it word for word and explain it.
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
Because it's a logical non-sequitor, it makes no assertion including or excluding anyone.
By your statement I can not tell if you believe in limited atonement or not. Which is it?
Then answer this question. Did God give Jesus all mankind or just a portion of mankind?
I believe that the term Gods elect refers to the predestination or pre selection of Evangelists, teachers, preachers, messengers and workers for the Gospel of Jesus the Christ. Salvation is for everyone that can come to believe and receive the Grace by faith through the power of the Holy Spirit, and become circumcized of the heart. Those that turn from Grace and return to the law risk losing their Salvation if they do not turn back to Grace and faith. Now I've got a study to return to so ciao for now.
Does the Bible teach that Christ died for everyone or just the elect?
Bible Question:
Does the Bible teach that Christ died for everyone or just the elect (some)?
Bible Answer:
Your question has also been asked as, “For whom did Jesus die?” The topic has also been called “Particular Atonement,” “Limited Atonement,” and “Particular Redemption.” There are two major views on this subject.
Limited Atonement
One position says that Jesus died only for the elect or those who would eventually become Christians. Here are three passages which seem to teach this truth.
The other view is that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. There are a number of passages that seem to teach this too!
Considerations
The question that is usually asked at this point is, “Did Jesus die to save the whole world?” If we answer yes, then some say that Jesus was defeated because everyone will not be saved. At first this seems to support the limited atonement position. But the question is designed to give the desired answer. We must ask two questions. Our first question is, “Was Jesus’ death or blood inadequate, or not sufficient, to save the entire world?” The answer is that Jesus’ death was a perfect sacrifice and it is more than adequate to forgive anyone’s sins. The second question is, “How can Jesus be defeated when He chose the elect before the foundation of the world?” The answer to this question is that He was not defeated. He chose the elect and provided the perfect sacrifice – a sacrifice that is sufficient to save anyone.
Bible Question:
Does the Bible teach that Christ died for everyone or just the elect (some)?
Bible Answer:
Your question has also been asked as, “For whom did Jesus die?” The topic has also been called “Particular Atonement,” “Limited Atonement,” and “Particular Redemption.” There are two major views on this subject.
Limited Atonement
One position says that Jesus died only for the elect or those who would eventually become Christians. Here are three passages which seem to teach this truth.
I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep. John 10:11 (NASB)
All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. John 6:37-39 (NASB)
I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine . . . John 17:9 (NASB)
If we ask the question, “Did Jesus know for whom He was dying?” we must answer yes. Yes, He knew for whom He was dying because God chose the elect before the foundation of the world.All that the Father gives Me shall come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. John 6:37-39 (NASB)
I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom Thou hast given Me; for they are Thine . . . John 17:9 (NASB)
For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory. 2 Timothy 2:10 (NASB)
Unlimited AtonementThe other view is that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world. There are a number of passages that seem to teach this too!
All of us like sheep have gone astray, Each of us has turned to his own way; But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all to fall on Him. Isaiah 53:6 (NASB)
I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh. (John 6:51 (NASB)
. . . and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 (NASB)
These passages teach that Jesus died for the sins of the entire world.I am the living bread that came down out of heaven; if anyone eats of this bread, he shall live forever; and the bread also which I shall give for the life of the world is My flesh. (John 6:51 (NASB)
. . . and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world. 1 John 2:2 (NASB)
Considerations
The question that is usually asked at this point is, “Did Jesus die to save the whole world?” If we answer yes, then some say that Jesus was defeated because everyone will not be saved. At first this seems to support the limited atonement position. But the question is designed to give the desired answer. We must ask two questions. Our first question is, “Was Jesus’ death or blood inadequate, or not sufficient, to save the entire world?” The answer is that Jesus’ death was a perfect sacrifice and it is more than adequate to forgive anyone’s sins. The second question is, “How can Jesus be defeated when He chose the elect before the foundation of the world?” The answer to this question is that He was not defeated. He chose the elect and provided the perfect sacrifice – a sacrifice that is sufficient to save anyone.
Conclusion:
Limited and unlimited Atonement are both true. It is limited in the sense that Jesus knew for whom He was dying and that His death would ultimately benefit only the elect. He chose everyone who who has believed and will believe before the foundation of the world. Unlimited Atonement is also true in the sense that Jesus’ death was perfect. It can save anyone, but His death only benefits those who believe in Jesus – those whom God chose before the foundation of the world. This is a paradox since anyone who wants to be saved – anyone who believes in Jesus – is immediately saved. If you desire to become a Christian, then God has chosen you to become a Christian and the faith that you have has been given to you (Acts 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1). We urge you to read “Searching for God.”
Limited and unlimited Atonement are both true. It is limited in the sense that Jesus knew for whom He was dying and that His death would ultimately benefit only the elect. He chose everyone who who has believed and will believe before the foundation of the world. Unlimited Atonement is also true in the sense that Jesus’ death was perfect. It can save anyone, but His death only benefits those who believe in Jesus – those whom God chose before the foundation of the world. This is a paradox since anyone who wants to be saved – anyone who believes in Jesus – is immediately saved. If you desire to become a Christian, then God has chosen you to become a Christian and the faith that you have has been given to you (Acts 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9; Philippians 1:29; 2 Peter 1:1). We urge you to read “Searching for God.”
L
Locoponydirtman
Guest
Gives is present tense. Your question fails because it assumes past tense from the verb.
Didn't you learn verb tense in elementary school? It's actually some simple language that your are reading your personal theology onto rather than reading for what it says.
In verse 39 he uses past tense "has given", but he is speaking from the perspective of a future time when he will raise them up.
You should take a reading comprehension class, and possibly a language mechanics class, this may help you to understand written language. Or is it that you want to read in your own theology because there is a word for that; eisegesus, and it is the soul source of heterodoxy which can shipwreck a person's faith.
It's not for to worry very much about as I see it because we were given the task of sharing the Gospel with everyone can be saved. We won't know till the book of life is opened for everyone to see who is and isn't saved. As my friend Lynn used to say, "Many would be surprised to see hookers and thieves in heaven and preachers and scholars in hell." We just need to do what we are called to do. God will do the rest.
Well put.
It's like that cartoon from years ago. Two people looking at one another and each at the same time saying, I didn't think I'd see you here!
It's amazing that there can be so many conversations going on about the same thing. That of, those who Jesus didn't die for.