A 'Worship Leader' is not a real thing. Change my mind.

[MartinBarret]

This article written by 'Plumbline Faith' on X summarizes what changed my mind entirely about the whole 'worship leading' thing. He states:

"Successful New Testament church and discipleship requires that we re-align our concept of “worship.” That’s because what most people call “worship” … Isn’t.

At least, not according to the New Testament. “Worship” in the New Testament means living lives of sacrificial service and reverent obedience. That’s it, pure and simple.

It’s not a Sunday “service” … And it’s not music or a song. In fact, those concepts didn’t arise in the church until the 4th Century AD. Instead, worship as commanded in the New Testament is an ongoing lifestyle, 24/7. Yes, we’re encouraged to congregationally sing praises together when we meet, but only in four passages in the New Testament.

Three of those passages say why: It’s to encourage or build up one another. That’s it. Nothing more … But nothing less! That destroys the modern narrative of “worship” as pursuing intense experiences, often invoked through manipulative “worship services” … Which supposedly conjure up God’s presence. Where do you even find that in the New Testament?

You don’t.

In fact, that’s more pagan than Biblical. And although a genuine encounter with God certainly can generate emotional intensity … These days, we instead pursue emotional intensity and call it God. So let’s gather Biblically to congregationally express God’s presence already in us … Through songs that encourage one another towards true worship by living lives of reverent obedience. Otherwise, we’ll remain trapped in pagan carnality … Rather than find authentic church, authentic worship and authentic discipleship as defined in the New Testament."
https://x.com/PlumblineFaith/status/1948092136399737331

As a Sunday service 'song-leader' myself, this at first bothered me, but there is no New Testament example of 'worship leader' (esp. a PAID one!) ... it just didn't carry over from the O.T. as I was somewhat led to believe. I think Plumbline is right.

Worship is (as per Romans 12:1-2) the disposition of our mind and bodies being conformed not to the world, but offered up to God as 'living sacrifices'. WE are the temple, we don't ATTEND a temple, after all. It all is starting to make so much sense ... to my nearly 60-year-old mind.

What has taken over in our modern churches is a financial burden (paying song-leaders, some of which are called 'worship-pastors'?). Money could be going to the poor rather than to high-tech light-shows and sound equipment playing 4-chord 'worship songs' that now have all begun to sound the same and which needs very little talent to reproduce (which is somewhat in violation of Psalm 33:3). What has led the movement to make people buy into 'experiential faith' on any given Sunday? Did we think a few holy moments of arm raising and hand waving was actually our 'worship'? No wonder we're so hollow, spiritually! Congregational milk feeders, rather than Spirit-led Bible readers. What have we become? What have we allowed to be called 'church-worship'?



Thoughts?

 

[MsMediator]

I have heard that God likes to hear us sing; that's why we should sing even if we sound bad. He doesn't care too much about our singing ability.

 

[Lynx]

This article written by 'Plumbline Faith' on X summarizes what changed my mind entirely about the whole 'worship leading' thing. He states:

"Successful New Testament church and discipleship requires that we re-align our concept of “worship.” That’s because what most people call “worship” … Isn’t.

At least, not according to the New Testament. “Worship” in the New Testament means living lives of sacrificial service and reverent obedience. That’s it, pure and simple.

It’s not a Sunday “service” … And it’s not music or a song. In fact, those concepts didn’t arise in the church until the 4th Century AD. Instead, worship as commanded in the New Testament is an ongoing lifestyle, 24/7. Yes, we’re encouraged to congregationally sing praises together when we meet, but only in four passages in the New Testament.

Three of those passages say why: It’s to encourage or build up one another. That’s it. Nothing more … But nothing less! That destroys the modern narrative of “worship” as pursuing intense experiences, often invoked through manipulative “worship services” … Which supposedly conjure up God’s presence. Where do you even find that in the New Testament?

You don’t.

In fact, that’s more pagan than Biblical. And although a genuine encounter with God certainly can generate emotional intensity … These days, we instead pursue emotional intensity and call it God. So let’s gather Biblically to congregationally express God’s presence already in us … Through songs that encourage one another towards true worship by living lives of reverent obedience. Otherwise, we’ll remain trapped in pagan carnality … Rather than find authentic church, authentic worship and authentic discipleship as defined in the New Testament."
https://x.com/PlumblineFaith/status/1948092136399737331

As a Sunday service 'song-leader' myself, this at first bothered me, but there is no New Testament example of 'worship leader' (esp. a PAID one!) ... it just didn't carry over from the O.T. as I was somewhat led to believe. I think Plumbline is right.

Worship is (as per Romans 12:1-2) the disposition of our mind and bodies being conformed not to the world, but offered up to God as 'living sacrifices'. WE are the temple, we don't ATTEND a temple, after all. It all is starting to make so much sense ... to my nearly 60-year-old mind.

What has taken over in our modern churches is a financial burden (paying song-leaders, some of which are called 'worship-pastors'?). Money could be going to the poor rather than to high-tech light-shows and sound equipment playing 4-chord 'worship songs' that now have all begun to sound the same and which needs very little talent to reproduce (which is somewhat in violation of Psalm 33:3). What has led the movement to make people buy into 'experiential faith' on any given Sunday? Did we think a few holy moments of arm raising and hand waving was actually our 'worship'? No wonder we're so hollow, spiritually! Congregational milk feeders, rather than Spirit-led Bible readers. What have we become? What have we allowed to be called 'church-worship'?

View attachment 278252

Thoughts?

First, howdy and welcome to the forum.

Second, I would counter all this with "To the chief musician," a phrase appearing at the head of some psalms. Some forms of worship need a bit more organizing than others.

Third, what do I get for this task? If I prove you wrong, what is my payment?

 

[SomeDisciple]

I have heard that God likes to hear us sing; that's why we should sing even if we sound bad. He doesn't care too much about our singing ability.

Probably from a desperate "worship leader" that otherwise can't get people to participate in their uninspired and uninspiring compositions.

 

[MartinBarret]

First, howdy and welcome to the forum.

Second, I would counter all this with "To the chief musician," a phrase appearing at the head of some psalms. Some forms of worship need a bit more organizing than others.

Third, what do I get for this task? If I prove you wrong, what is my payment?

NEW Testament. I agree there is a system in play in the OLD Testament, no dispute there. But does that mean it carries over (like Tithing, which shouldn't) into praxis in the new? It was for THE TEMPLE worship. Now that we ARE the temple, 'Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs' are for the encouragement of the ecclesia, but not indicated (NT) as being a specific function of the church in 1st century Israel and elsewhere. Thoughts? Evidence to the contrary in historical documentation? Augustine never mentions 'worship services' per se, right?

 

[MartinBarret]

Probably from a desperate "worship leader" that otherwise can't get people to participate in their uninspired and uninspiring compositions.

I'm sorry, but could you be more judgmental? Just a little bit? That would be greeeaaat. Okay, seriously - what evidence, biblically or textually (1-4 centuries) is there of a 'worship leader' per se? You have a heart issue, my friend. You don't hurt me taking a stab at my abilities or service, but you demean yourself with ad hominem negativity like that. Take it to the Lord in prayer, my brother!

 

[SomeDisciple]

I'm sorry, but could you be more judgmental? Just a little bit? That would be greeeaaat.

Why? Did you drop that line on people? I don't usually escalate on request; but I might make an exception in your case.

what evidence, biblically or textually (1-4 centuries) is there of a 'worship leader' per se?

None. Not that you can't have someone called that in a church; but it isn't a specific designation in the NT.

You have a heart issue, my friend.

Seems to working fine at the moment.

You don't hurt me taking a stab at my abilities or service, but you demean yourself with ad hominem negativity like that.

I didn't even refer to you specifically; but... if the shoe fits I won't try to stop you from putting it on.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Thoughts?

Do you really want thoughts or just want people to agree with you? Because you put it out there, then you need to expect people will give their POV.

It’s not a Sunday “service” … And it’s not music or a song. Yes, we’re encouraged to congregationally sing praises together when we meet, but only in four passages in the New Testament.

So the argument against singing praises together is what exactly?

Three of those passages say why: It’s to encourage or build up one another.
That’s it. Nothing more … But nothing less!

And again the argument is what exactly?

That destroys the modern narrative of “worship” as pursuing intense experiences, often invoked through manipulative “worship services” … Which supposedly conjure up God’s presence... In fact, that’s more pagan than Biblical.

Ah, it's the Pentecostals, too emotional! How exactly does one manipulate a worship service? Pagan? Wow, wonder what they would have said when David danced for joy, would have tarred and feathered him!

And although a genuine encounter with God certainly can generate emotional intensity … These days, we instead pursue emotional intensity and call it God.

Well, that depends on who's doing the leading. And yes, it's ok to be emotional and feel intensity with the Holy Spirit. People get more emotional at a football game or a secular concert. I think it's ok to get a little excited in the presence of God.

Through songs that encourage one another towards true worship by living lives of reverent obedience. Otherwise, we’ll remain trapped in pagan carnality …

Yeah, that's a little over the top. First of all, not all music moves all people. Some like hymns, some like upbeat, some contemporary, there are other forms. A good worship leader should be able to handle all that. You can't tell people what to like.

What has taken over in our modern churches is a financial burden (paying song-leaders, some of which are called 'worship-pastors'?). Money could be going to the poor rather than to high-tech light-shows and sound equipment playing 4-chord 'worship songs' that now have all begun to sound the same and which needs very little talent to reproduce

Well there's a lot that could be cut from a church budget. I church I once attended bought a big screen tv so when the super bowl was on, the men would still come to church. Hence the "one attended". The same church decided, after I left, to shill out 10 grand on a sign out front of the church. Totally useless expense IMO. A couple months later a bad storm took it out. I don't see an issue with paying a worship leader, or as we used to call them, the song leader.

. What has led the movement to make people buy into 'experiential faith' on any given Sunday? Did we think a few holy moments of arm raising and hand waving was actually our 'worship'?
No wonder we're so hollow, spiritually! Congregational milk feeders, rather than Spirit-led Bible readers. What have we become? What have we allowed to be called 'church-worship'?

I really don't think anyone is that stupid. It's a matter of laying down the burden of the week we just went through. It's like a cool rain, a refreshing after a week of work, bills, problems. It's letting it all fall away in God's presence with fellow believers. It's a fresh start to a new week. It helps a lot of people make it through Monday and there's nothing wrong with that. Music speaks to the heart where sometimes a sermon won't.

 

[Lynx]

NEW Testament. I agree there is a system in play in the OLD Testament, no dispute there. But does that mean it carries over (like Tithing, which shouldn't) into praxis in the new? It was for THE TEMPLE worship. Now that we ARE the temple, 'Psalms, hymns and spiritual songs' are for the encouragement of the ecclesia, but not indicated (NT) as being a specific function of the church in 1st century Israel and elsewhere. Thoughts? Evidence to the contrary in historical documentation? Augustine never mentions 'worship services' per se, right?

Be careful with that logic. I know a certain group of people who use the same argument about musical instruments. Sure they used them in the OLD testament, but nothing is ever mentioned about them in the NEW testament...

By the way, and just for clarification: Someone mentioned a paid position in the church. In my church only the pastor is paid. Everything else is people volunteering to do things they believe are good to be done. Are you objecting to ANYBODY who leads praise, or just people who get paid to lead singing?

 

[Lynx]

Probably from a desperate "worship leader" that otherwise can't get people to participate in their uninspired and uninspiring compositions.

I'm sorry, but could you be more judgmental? Just a little bit? That would be greeeaaat. Okay, seriously - what evidence, biblically or textually (1-4 centuries) is there of a 'worship leader' per se? You have a heart issue, my friend. You don't hurt me taking a stab at my abilities or service, but you demean yourself with ad hominem negativity like that. Take it to the Lord in prayer, my brother!

To me it looked like SomeDisciple was agreeing with you about the worship leaders not being needed.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Be careful with that logic. I know a certain group of people who use the same argument about musical instruments. Sure they used them in the OLD testament, but nothing is ever mentioned about them in the NEW testament...

By the way, and just for clarification: Someone mentioned a paid position in the church. In my church only the pastor is paid. Everything else is people volunteering to do things they believe are good to be done. Are you objecting to ANYBODY who leads praise, or just people who get paid to lead singing?

The church I attend now had not allowed any music in the church for years. Then a pastor friend of ours was called to preach there. He got a piano in the church and hired us to be the first group to sing there in some 30 yrs. Talk about pressure. But they were so moved and it was wonderful to see them feel free to praise the Lord through music again. You wouldn't take their music now if you tried. Music is a form of ministry.

 

[SomeDisciple]

To me it looked like SomeDisciple was agreeing with you about the worship leaders not being needed.

True. I'm probably not the most agreeable person on CC; but in this case, there was some agreement. It was like a unicorn sighting; but then he shot the unicorn. "It's coming right for us! KA-BOOM!

 

[Lynx]

True. I'm probably not the most agreeable person on CC; but in this case, there was some agreement. It was like a unicorn sighting; but then he shot the unicorn. "It's coming right for us! KA-BOOM!

Yeah, that was what puzzled me. I think he thought you were disagreeing with him, strongly and in an insulting manner.

Whatever. I still disagree with him so at least he has somebody left to argue with.

 

[Howdy]

I guess we be behind the times.
We got no worship leader or music minister.
We don't even have a band or lights.
All we got is a piano and a song leader.

 

[Lynx]

I guess we be behind the times.
We got no worship leader or music minister.
We don't even have a band or lights.
All we got is a piano and a song leader.

For churches below a certain size, that's really all you need.

As the crowd gets bigger, a drum set comes in handy for keeping everybody on beat.

 

[oldman]

For churches below a certain size, that's really all you need.

As the crowd gets bigger, a drum set comes in handy for keeping everybody on beat.

In 1972 we had an organ and a piano and ONE person leading praise and actual worship.
and even he stepped away from the microphone when he sang or worshiped.
Congregation was about 800 to 1000 people. House lights stayed up, NO fog machines.
The vineyard folks called the person "the invisible worship leader" in the 70's.

To be self conscious during true worship is to be much less conscious to God's presence. To correct this
problem, it was suggested to "close your eyes and you'll have total privacy"

 

[Lynx]

Why do people keep talking about fog machines?

I've been to many churches. I have seen a fog machine once, and it was at a youth convention, and many people were like >> and as far as I know they never did it again.

But people sure do talk about it a lot...