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I am not rejecting the idea that the Second Coming could happen at any moment and that this is what the early church believed. Darby’s “secret rapture” is nothing like the Second Coming Paul describes. Jesus discusses his Second Coming as a moment that will be seen by everyone. Paul discusses...

I think this is where the confusion is setting in. What Darby meant by “rapture” is very different from what Edwards meant. Edwards simply meant that we would be “caught up” with Jesus as 1 Thess 4 indicates. However, he was not teaching that this would be an invisible event to the world that...

Ok, allow me to clarify. The Church throughout history has believed in a literal, visible Second Coming of Jesus that would be seen by every eye and mourned/celebrated by the whole world. Now, it seems, perhaps some in the 1700s or so started to suggest that Christians would be “caught up“ to...

Ok, well perhaps I misunderstood his position. I have been responding to a lot of people so it is hard to keep track of who believes what. He did quote this as factual which is why I inferred as much: The clear implication of this citation is that the church “suffered” throughout history of...

I disagree with this post. Nearly every time ”baptism” is mentioned in the NT it is referring to water. The times it is not referring to water, it is clearly stated as such. Moreover, when people are instructed to baptize or be baptized, clearly this is an act that they are to engage in...

Look, you can post til your blue in the face, but the fact of the matter is NO reader of the Bible ever had the notion that Jesus would come secretly and no one would see him but the Church. Nor did anyone ever believe that God needed to rapture the Church away in order to refocus his attention...

I appreciate the post. I did read the post previously but didn’t notice the additional link at the bottom that mentioned the Morgan Edwards writings. It does seem that he posits a rapture and return of Christ with the Church after 3.5 years. While I suppose that technically, this does ”split”...

I agree the Bible speaks of the Second Coming. My point, throughout the thread has been that it was not until the 1800s that the idea of a ”secret rapture” was ever discussed. None of those Scriptures you posted said anything about a secret second coming that is only visible to believers that...

Well according to the “eye-and-ear witness,” Robert Norton M.D who preserved her handwritten account of her rapture revelation in two of his books, and said it was “the first time anyone ever split the second coming into two distinct parts, or stages.” So, if you can provide proof that Darby...

Must be a good feeling to know that when you arent interpreting something properly, you are able to self-correct and make sure you know only the truth and all your interpretations are 100% true. By the way, I’d be careful denigrating “man made” commentaries and teaching sources. Last I...

I appreciate the comments and research. However, I must say I am always a bit skeptical of an author who doesn’t actually provide the material to defend the point they are trying to make. Saying, “but their arguments do not stand up to serious criticism” seems like a way to dismiss a point...

Thanks for the links. I did look at the information. I do think it‘s important to recognize that the opponents to this view of the origin of the rapture concept are Dispensational theologians… “For these and other reasons, dispensational scholars consider MacPherson's alleged connection to...

lol, ok. Well I’m glad to hear you have never stated anything that is incorrect. Apparently that is the way we judge false teachers these days. Smh

And who are you to judge that? To dismiss someone who has spent countless hours studying the Bible and the history of the church and has led churches for decades because you sit as judge over them and declare them to have “no spiritual insight” is ridiculous. Besides, this is either a...

Here is my understanding on the gift of tongues based on what Scripture says… 1. Not all will speak in tongues (1 Cor. 12:30 (the Greek he implies “no” is the answer to the rhetorical question)). 2. Tongues is a gift where one “utters mysteries in the Spirit” and speaks “to God“ (1 Cor. 14:2...

Could you point to some references? I’d be happy to look at published literature rather than searching online forums where anyone can say anything. I’m not trying to be obtuse, I tend to trust people who do research for a living and have their work backed by reputable publishers. The author I...

Yes, universalists like to point out this scripture as suggesting that Jesus’ act can only be “greater” than Adam‘s if the effect of Christ‘s forgiveness encompasses all those who have sinned. I do not see it this way… I think what Paul is saying is that Adam committed one sin…. That one sin...

I agree. I think Romans 4 spells this out very directly: Paul goes on to say… So, for Paul, God has always used faith to provide forgiveness. The animal sacrifices and circumcisions were not what offered forgiveness because Abraham was declared righteous “by faith” before engaging in these...

For clarity sake, I will put it like this. Binding of Satan in Gospels = Jesus‘ displaying his power and the presence of his kingdom which sets captives free. Jesus tells his disciples they would have the keys to advance that kingdom, binding and loosing as well, showing that the kingdom was...

I never said the “chain” was the gospel. I said that the purpose of his binding was so that he could not ”deceive the nations.” The preaching of the Gospel presents people with the truth so that those who are captive in sin can be set free. If you are trying to associate specific meanings to...