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You tell them incorrectly. Which proves my previous point. You want to tell people what they believe, instead of listening to what they say they believe. Even after being told that's not what we believe. Many times. You got two out of five correct. Perhaps try listening and you'll get more of them. I would tell you what I believe those actually mean if I thought you would be willing to listen. Based on prior experience, I don't believe you would.
Resolving Problematic Interpretations of Scripture
- Thread starter GWH
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I laughed because you say you want to discuss, but then you don't. So I will explain them to you in the hopes that we can have a discussion this time.
Total depravity says that sin has so twisted us that apart from grace, we love other things more than we love God. Adam chose to reject our Creator, and, through Adam’s disobedience, humanity fell into sin (Gen. 3; Rom. 5:12–21).
Unconditional election is God’s loving choice of specific sinners for salvation without respect to any good in them(Rom. 9:1–29).
Jesus tells us that He lays His life down for His sheep and only for His sheep (John 10:1–18).
If God chooses some for salvation and this will cannot be thwarted, then His grace must be finally irresistible. It must be effectual to bring us to faith. But also find evidence for it in texts such as John 6:37–40, are told that everyone given to Christ by the Father for salvation actually comes to Him. Ephesians 2:1–10 also tells us that God makes people who are dead in sin alive.
They go out from us because they were never truly of us (1 John 2:19). Christ says that no one can snatch us out of the Father’s hand (John 10:28). “No one” includes even us—even we cannot snatch ourselves out of His hand. Romans 8:28–30 says that everyone whom God justifies He also glorifies.
This was all copied from https://learn.ligonier.org/articles/what-tulip -- They say it much better than I ever could. Feel free to read that for a more in-depth explanation.
Re discussion: I hope you will tell me when you think I am not upholding my end before it becomes laughable,
because IMO it is you who drops the ball. Anyway, let us continue this discussion by comparing the Ts:
Per me: T – total depravity, meaning souls are unable to exercise sufficient MFW to seek salvation.
Per you: T - sin has so twisted us that apart from grace, we love other things more than we love God. Adam chose to reject our Creator, and, through Adam’s disobedience, humanity fell into sin (Gen. 3; Rom. 5:12–21).
The problematic part is "apart from grace". I understand GW (1Tim. 2:3-4, etc.) as indicating God graces everyone with the opportunity to repent of sin. How do you understand it?
Comparing the U...
Per me: U – unconditional election, meaning that souls need not satisfy a divine requirement such as faith or repentance, but God chooses to save some while damning the rest to hell.
Per you: U - God’s loving choice of specific sinners for salvation without respect to any good in them (Rom. 9:1–29).
The problematic part is "choice of specific sinners for salvation", which means specific other/the rest of sinners are condemned to hell.
(Matt. 25:46. John 3:16-18)
Comparing the I...
Per me: I - irresistible grace, meaning that elect souls cannot resist or refuse God’s will for them to be saved.
Per you: I - If God chooses some for salvation and this will cannot be thwarted, then His grace must be finally irresistible. It must be effectual to bring us to faith. But also find evidence for it in texts such as John 6:37–40, are told that everyone given to Christ by the Father for salvation actually comes to Him. Ephesians 2:1–10 also tells us that God makes people who are dead in sin alive.
The problematic part is "this will cannot be thwarted", because this assumption contradicts Scriptures teaching that God allows souls to sin or thwart His will for them to be righteous/be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4, Matt 23:37, Deut. 30:19).
Over/ball in your court...
[QUOTE="GWH, post: 5686620, member: 334064"
Re discussion: I hope you will tell me when you think I am not upholding my end before it becomes laughable,
because IMO it is you who drops the ball.[/QUOTE]
We see it differently. So far, so good this time. Let's see how this goes.
Re discussion: I hope you will tell me when you think I am not upholding my end before it becomes laughable,
because IMO it is you who drops the ball.[/QUOTE]
We see it differently. So far, so good this time. Let's see how this goes.
I have no idea what "MFW" means. We've had this discussion before. If you use acronyms I'm not going to reply.
The opportunity exists for everyone. The ability however, does not. Some will (the Elect) and some won't (the non-Elect). The non-elect won't because they love themselves more than they love God. They will chose not to respond to God's Grace.
I'm only replying to the bolded part. These are your words, and they do not reflect what I believe. Everyone's going to hell by default (see Total Depravity). God doesn't need to specifically condemn them to hell. It's the destination from birth unless God intervenes.
It's not problematic because God's Grace is irresistible for those who have been made spiritually alive. For those who remain dead in their sins, resisting God is their nature.
We see it differently. So far, so good this time. Let's see how this goes.
I have no idea what "MFW" means. We've had this discussion before. If you use acronyms I'm not going to reply.
The opportunity exists for everyone. The ability however, does not. Some will (the Elect) and some won't (the non-Elect). The non-elect won't because they love themselves more than they love God. They choose not to respond to God's Grace, even though God graces every sinful soul with the ability or opportunity to repent and seek salvation (cf. 1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Tim. 2:25, Ezek. 33:11, cf. Rev. 3:5).
I'm only replying to the bolded part. These are your words, and they do not reflect what I believe. Everyone's going to hell by default (see Total Depravity). God doesn't need to specifically condemn them to hell. It's the destination from birth unless God intervenes.
It's not problematic because God's Grace is irresistible for those who have been made spiritually alive. For those who remain dead in their sins, resisting God is their nature.[/QUOTE]
My acronyms are found in my profile. MFW means moral free will, which anyone should know who participates in discussions of TULIP, because it is the opposite:
M – moral requirement, meaning that God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is righteousness, which presumes sinners are morally accountable.
F – free faith, meaning that GRFS or condition for attaining righteousness is IF they believe in GW, which implies sinners are enabled by God to repent, seek salvation and believe the Gospel of Christ’s atonement–but they may resist divine grace.
W – will, meaning that the essence of moral faith is the desire to cooperate with God, and choosing to cooperate with God opens the door of a sinner’s heart to the entrance of Christ’s loving Holy Spirit.
Re the T - How can everyone have opportunity without ability?! The rest of that statement is true but contradicts the first part of the statement. Choosing not to respond means they had the opportunity and ability but not the willingness.
Re the U - I see no bolded part, but I do see you believe God sends everyone not specifically elected to hell, because that is the default He created for unelected souls, whether repentant and accepting Christ or not. The problematic part is that you contradict Scripture teaching God does not show favoritism (Rom. 2:11, Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).
Re the I - Ditto re the U, which also makes God into a hater of nonelect humanity, contradicting Scripture teaching that God loves everyone (John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4).
And you say?...
My acronyms are found in my profile. MFW means moral free will, which anyone should know who participates in discussions of TULIP, because it is the opposite:
M – moral requirement, meaning that God’s requirement for salvation (GRFS) is righteousness, which presumes sinners are morally accountable.
F – free faith, meaning that GRFS or condition for attaining righteousness is IF they believe in GW, which implies sinners are enabled by God to repent, seek salvation and believe the Gospel of Christ’s atonement–but they may resist divine grace.
W – will, meaning that the essence of moral faith is the desire to cooperate with God, and choosing to cooperate with God opens the door of a sinner’s heart to the entrance of Christ’s loving Holy Spirit.
Re the T - How can everyone have opportunity without ability?! The rest of that statement is true but contradicts the first part of the statement. Choosing not to respond means they had the opportunity and ability but not the willingness.
Re the U - I see no bolded part, but I do see you believe God sends everyone not specifically elected to hell, because that is the default He created for unelected souls, whether repentant and accepting Christ or not. The problematic part is that you contradict Scripture teaching God does not show favoritism (Rom. 2:11, Eph. 6:9, Col. 3:25, 1Pet. 1:17).
Re the I - Ditto re the U, which also makes God into a hater of nonelect humanity, contradicting Scripture teaching that God loves everyone (John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4).
And you say?...[/QUOTE]
So we're back at the impass. You continue to say I believe what I don't. Grace and Peace.
So we're back at the impass. You continue to say I believe what I don't. Grace and Peace.[/QUOTE]
I continue to say what TULIP and MFW mean,
and I see that your meaning is problematic per Scripture,
so ditto re G&P, but I also wish you will become a TSer and LGW,
because now you know just enough to be dangerous.
And now you made it personal. Bye.[/QUOTE]I continue to say what TULIP and MFW mean,
and I see that your meaning is problematic per Scripture,
so ditto re G&P, but I also wish you will become a TSer and LGW,
because now you know just enough to be dangerous.
Actually, YOU made it personal by saying "You continue to say I believe what I don't",
whereas I was discussing doctrine impersonally. But yes, God loves ya, so do I.
Yet another Scripture tulipists have cited is Jeremiah 17:9a, ”The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure.”
The immediate context includes:
Jer. 17:5, “Cursed is the one who trusts in man… and whose heart turns away from the Lord.”
Jer. 17:7, “But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him.”
Jer. 17:10, “I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct, according to what his deeds deserve.”
Jer. 12:1,3,14 &16, “You are always righteous, O Lord… you see me and test my thoughts about you…
This is what the Lord says… if the wicked learn well the ways of my people… then they will be established among my people.”
Jer. 14:10, “This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander…
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now … punish them for their sins.”
Jer. 18:8-11, “If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned…
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it…
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you.”
Oops! The astute tulipist among us will notice that Jeremiah implies MFW by urging repentance,
so surely they will turn from their wrong way of understanding GW, each one of them!
Here's a pastor's explanation of Biblical Prophecy, pointing to these Last Day Events, and the exposing of the Anti-Christ, its doctrines and deceptions of humanity, to lead the Elect of God, ... away from the Righteousness of Christ, unto perdition and ever lasting DEATH.
~~ Conrad Vine Sermon – End-Time Sign: A “Falling Away” Inside The Church ~~
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