Acts 2:38 Comparison: Evangelical vs. Oneness / Baptismal-Regeneration View

FlyingDove said:

Once again, you've run from question of when God purified & accepted them & switched to how often Acts 1:5/2:4/10:44 happens. Those are two different questions.

Uniqueness doesn't mean ""not salvational."" The cross happened once. The resurrection happened once. Pentecost happened once. Their uniqueness doesn't make them less salvational. It makes them foundational.

Peter treats Pentecost & Cornelius as the same salvational event applied to 2 groups (Jews/Gentiles), not as a random sign.

Peter universalizes the promise beyond those three events.

Acts 2:39, the promise is for you, your children, and all who are afar off.

Acts 11:17–18, God gave them the same gift & the Jews conclude: Then God has granted to the Gentiles repentance unto life.

Acts 15:8–9, God gave them the Holy Spirit, made no distinction, purified their hearts by faith.

Paul later describes the same reality without wind/tongues: By one Spirit we were all baptized into one body (1 Cor 12:13).

The outward phenomena (wind, tongues) are not what make it salvational; the giving of the Holy Spirit is.

Your ""daily basis"" demand is a red herring. You're asking: Show me Acts 2:4/10:44 happening every day with the same manifestations.

But Peter's argument is not: This exact manifestation happens every day.

Peter's argument is: What happened to them is the same gift, same baptism, same purification, same acceptance as what happened to us at the beginning [Pentecost].

The question is not, How often did the wind/tongues happen? The question is, What did God do when He gave the Spirit?

So let's come back again —to the one thing you still haven't answered:
Peter says God gave them the Holy Spirit, God made no distinction, God purified their hearts by faith & then they were baptized in water (Acts 10:44–48; 11:15–18; 15:8–9).

When did God purify & accept them? Before water or after?

You can talk about ""daily basis"" all you want, but until you answer that, you're not dealing with Peter. You're running from his God breathed testimony.

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I have answered when did God purify their hearts by faith . You just reject the answer. It was when Peter baptized them in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin and the sealing of the Holy Ghost as per Acts 2:38 just as he was sent by God to speak the words where by they would be saved. Yes the spirit came upon them as Peter began to speak but it was not for the promised sealing as in Acts 2:38,39. The promised gift of the holy ghost of Acts 2;38,39 is not the same promise of Act 1:5&8 that was to the Apostles only and they were the only ones to receive it until it happen again In Acts 19:44 but that was not salvation Peter finish his words he was sent yo speak and then they submitted to the gospel call and that is when they were purified by THE FAITH (THE GOSPEL)

You are not following context but appling your bias to the narrative. The holy Ghost in Acts 2:38 Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
39 is a promise unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.” That is the promise to all mankind forever and ever for as many as the Lord shall call. It is not the power spirit of Acts 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth. Those two passage was told to the Apostles and it was only the Apostles that recieved it not many days hence. Everyone else on the day of Pentecost was Acts 2:38.39 that is what is recorded in the KJV bible go look it up. The power of witness is not the promise of 2:38,39 it is not the seal of the indwelling that is the baptism of Acts 238 the same one Peter purified the hearts of the gentiles that he was sent by God to speak the words to the gentiles. Stay in context from Acts 1 to 15 and you will get the picture it is spelled out for you to see.

Jews First, Jews Only, Covenant‑Bound Rituals. From John's Baptism to Cornelius.

No Gentiles Until God Breaks the Pattern. Until God Himself flips the baptism script with Gentiles (Acts 10).

John the Baptist's Ministry was 100% Jewish.
John's baptism was in Judean wilderness, in the Jordan & was for Israelites only. He called Jews to repentance, preparing Israel for their Messiah, using categories rooted in Jewish purification. No Gentiles are ever baptized by John. Not one. Because Gentiles were outside the Mosaic covenant. (See Eph 2:12). Jesus Himself affirms this covenant divide when He calls the Canaanite woman a dog (Matt 15:26). Not an insult, a covenant reality.

Jesus' Ministry Still Israel‑First, Israel‑Only. Jesus sends the Twelve: Do not go to the Gentiles, go only to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matt 10:5–6)
Jesus affirms: Salvation is of the Jews. (Jn 4:22)

From the Gospels all the way to Acts 10, Gentiles remain: unclean, outside the covenant, not part of Israel's baptismal or purification rites.

Pentecost (Acts 2) Still 100% Jewish

Pentecost, under Mosaic law every Jewish male 20 years & older was required to travel to Jerusalem & attend the festival. Jewish males from every nation (Acts 2:5) were there. The fulfillment of Joel's prophecy to Israel unfolds. The launch of the New Covenant begins with, Jews only.

Peter's audience: Men of Judea, All who dwell in Jerusalem, Men of Israel. No Gentiles. Not one.

Acts 2:38 is spoken to Israel, under Jewish covenant categories, at a Jewish feast, in a Jewish city, fulfilling a Jewish prophecy.

You cannot broad‑brush Gentiles into John's baptism or Peter's Acts 2 sermon. They simply don't belong there.

After Pentecost the gospel message is still Jews Only

Even after the resurrection & Pentecost: Peter says it is unlawful to enter a Gentile home (Acts 10:28). Jewish believers contend/dispute with Peter for eating with Gentiles (Acts 11:2–3). Scattered believers preach ""to Jews only"" (Acts 11:19). Jews try to kill Paul for allegedly bringing a Gentile into the Temple (Acts 21:28–36). Jews wouldn't enter the Roman judgment hall "lest they be defiled/deemed unclean (Acts 18:28). The Mosaic covenant wall is still fully intact.

Acts 10 God Flips the NT inclusion Script:
Cornelius is the 1st uncircumcised Gentile to enter the New Covenant & God does it in a way that breaks the Jewish pattern:

At Pentecost (Acts 2): Repent > Water > Spirit. At Cornelius' house (Acts 10): Spirit > Water. God reverses the order & Jewish believer witnesses cannot deny Gentile inclusion.

Peter's interpretation: (the only interpretation that matters)
The Holy Spirit fell on them as on us at the beginning. (Acts 11:15). Then I remembered, You shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16). God GAVE THEM the SAME GIFT as He GAVE US (11:17). God purified their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:9). God made no distinction" (Acts 15:9). This is the moment God collapses the old covenant wall.

The Holy Spirit/Eternal life is a GIFT GIVEN thru Faith (Rom 6:23 & Jn 5:24)

The Gospel for the Body of Christ Today
The Acts 2 message "Repent & be baptized". Is not the gospel for the Body of Christ.

The New Covenant Body of Christ gospel for Jew & Gentile alike is:
1 Cor 15:
3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
(NOTE: First importance: Christ died for your sins (paying sins required wage/DEATH) was buried (proof He died) & on the 3rd day rose (Fathers receipt sins requited wage accepted)

Rom 10:
9 if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM [whoever adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED [in his expectations].
(NOTE: Peter say's the same thing Acts 2:21 > 17 verses before Acts 2:38)

Titus 2:11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
(NOTE: Grace has a name its Jesus the Christ)

Grace: Is a Given freely & received thru FAITH: (Rom 3:24, 4:16, 5:1-2, 15, "11:6" "Eph 2:5 & 8" Rom 5:1-2)

Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
(Note: Hear about Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection > Believe it > Receive Salvations Eternal Life Seal Jesus Holy Spirit baptism)

FlyingDove said:

Jews First, Jews Only, Covenant‑Bound Rituals. From John's Baptism to Cornelius.

No Gentiles Until God Breaks the Pattern. Until God Himself flips the baptism script with Gentiles (Acts 10).

John the Baptist's Ministry was 100% Jewish.
John's baptism was in Judean wilderness, in the Jordan & was for Israelites only. He called Jews to repentance, preparing Israel for their Messiah, using categories rooted in Jewish purification. No Gentiles are ever baptized by John. Not one. Because Gentiles were outside the Mosaic covenant. (See Eph 2:12). Jesus Himself affirms this covenant divide when He calls the Canaanite woman a dog (Matt 15:26). Not an insult, a covenant reality.

Jesus' Ministry Still Israel‑First, Israel‑Only. Jesus sends the Twelve: Do not go to the Gentiles, go only to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matt 10:5–6)
Jesus affirms: Salvation is of the Jews. (Jn 4:22)

From the Gospels all the way to Acts 10, Gentiles remain: unclean, outside the covenant, not part of Israel's baptismal or purification rites.

Pentecost (Acts 2) Still 100% Jewish

Pentecost, under Mosaic law every Jewish male 20 years & older was required to travel to Jerusalem & attend the festival. Jewish males from every nation (Acts 2:5) were there. The fulfillment of Joel's prophecy to Israel unfolds. The launch of the New Covenant begins with, Jews only.

Peter's audience: Men of Judea, All who dwell in Jerusalem, Men of Israel. No Gentiles. Not one.

Acts 2:38 is spoken to Israel, under Jewish covenant categories, at a Jewish feast, in a Jewish city, fulfilling a Jewish prophecy.

You cannot broad‑brush Gentiles into John's baptism or Peter's Acts 2 sermon. They simply don't belong there.

After Pentecost the gospel message is still Jews Only

Even after the resurrection & Pentecost: Peter says it is unlawful to enter a Gentile home (Acts 10:28). Jewish believers contend/dispute with Peter for eating with Gentiles (Acts 11:2–3). Scattered believers preach ""to Jews only"" (Acts 11:19). Jews try to kill Paul for allegedly bringing a Gentile into the Temple (Acts 21:28–36). Jews wouldn't enter the Roman judgment hall "lest they be defiled/deemed unclean (Acts 18:28). The Mosaic covenant wall is still fully intact.

Acts 10 God Flips the NT inclusion Script:
Cornelius is the 1st uncircumcised Gentile to enter the New Covenant & God does it in a way that breaks the Jewish pattern:

At Pentecost (Acts 2): Repent > Water > Spirit. At Cornelius' house (Acts 10): Spirit > Water. God reverses the order & Jewish believer witnesses cannot deny Gentile inclusion.

Peter's interpretation: (the only interpretation that matters)
The Holy Spirit fell on them as on us at the beginning. (Acts 11:15). Then I remembered, You shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit (Acts 11:16). God GAVE THEM the SAME GIFT as He GAVE US (11:17). God purified their hearts by faith" (Acts 15:9). God made no distinction" (Acts 15:9). This is the moment God collapses the old covenant wall.

The Holy Spirit/Eternal life is a GIFT GIVEN thru Faith (Rom 6:23 & Jn 5:24)

The Gospel for the Body of Christ Today
The Acts 2 message "Repent & be baptized". Is not the gospel for the Body of Christ.

The New Covenant Body of Christ gospel for Jew & Gentile alike is:
1 Cor 15:
3 For I passed on to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],

4 and that He was buried, and that He was [bodily] raised on the third day according to [that which] the Scriptures [foretold],
(NOTE: First importance: Christ died for your sins (paying sins required wage/DEATH) was buried (proof He died) & on the 3rd day rose (Fathers receipt sins requited wage accepted)

Rom 10:
9 if you acknowledge and confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord [recognizing His power, authority, and majesty as God], and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.

10 For with the heart a person believes [in Christ as Savior] resulting in his justification [that is, being made righteous—being freed of the guilt of sin and made acceptable to God]; and with the mouth he acknowledges and confesses [his faith openly], resulting in and confirming [his] salvation.

11 For the Scripture says, “WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM [whoever adheres to, trusts in, and relies on Him] WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED [in his expectations].
(NOTE: Peter say's the same thing Acts 2:21 > 17 verses before Acts 2:38)

Titus 2:11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
(NOTE: Grace has a name its Jesus the Christ)

Grace: Is a Given freely & received thru FAITH: (Rom 3:24, 4:16, 5:1-2, 15, "11:6" "Eph 2:5 & 8" Rom 5:1-2)

Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
(Note: Hear about Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection > Believe it > Receive Salvations Eternal Life Seal Jesus Holy Spirit baptism)

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We understand the systematic theory. Repetition is unnecessary.

FlyingDove said:

Jews First, Jews Only, Covenant‑Bound Rituals. From John's Baptism to Cornelius.

No Gentiles Until God Breaks the Pattern. Until God Himself flips the baptism script with Gentiles (Acts 10).

John the Baptist's Ministry was 100% Jewish.
John's baptism was in Judean wilderness, in the Jordan & was for Israelites only. He called Jews to repentance, preparing Israel for their Messiah, using categories rooted in Jewish purification. No Gentiles are ever baptized by John. Not one. Because Gentiles were outside the Mosaic covenant. (See Eph 2:12). Jesus Himself affirms this covenant divide when He calls the Canaanite woman a dog (Matt 15:26). Not an insult, a covenant reality.

Jesus' Ministry Still Israel‑First, Israel‑Only. Jesus sends the Twelve: Do not go to the Gentiles, go only to the lost sheep of Israel. (Matt 10:5–6)
Jesus affirms: Salvation is of the Jews. (Jn 4:22)

From the Gospels all the way to Acts 10, Gentiles remain: unclean, outside the covenant, not part of Israel's baptismal or purification rites.

Pentecost (Acts 2) Still 100% Jewish

Pentecost, under Mosaic law every Jewish male 20 years & older was required to travel to Jerusalem & attend the festival. Jewish males from every nation (Acts 2:5) were there. The fulfillment of Joel's prophecy to Israel unfolds. The launch of the New Covenant begins with, Jews only.

Peter's audience: Men of Judea, All who dwell in Jerusalem, Men of Israel. No Gentiles. Not one.

Acts 2:38 is spoken to Israel, under Jewish covenant categories, at a Jewish feast, in a Jewish city, fulfilling a Jewish prophecy.

You cannot broad‑brush Gentiles into John's baptism or Peter's Acts 2 sermon. They simply don't belong there.

Click to expand...

You said "At Pentecost (Acts 2): Repent > Water > Spirit. At Cornelius' house (Acts 10): Spirit > Water. God reverses the order & Jewish believer witnesses cannot deny Gentile inclusion."
It biblically went Acts 2;4 the spirit comes upon the Apostles Peter preached the gospel they heard the words repented was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and received the holy ghost (the indwelling spirit as a seal)

You said "The Holy Spirit/Eternal life is a GIFT GIVEN thru Faith " The Holy Spirit (the seal for eternal life) is a gift given through THE FAITH (the gospel)

You said "The Gospel for the Body of Christ Today
The Acts 2 message "Repent & be baptized". Is not the gospel for the Body of Christ." The bible says that there is only one gospel and it is found in Acts chapter and is still the same as for us all today
Acts 2:38ff
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

You point to 1 Cor 15:3,4 as if it is a different gospel but it is the same as Acts chapter 2

Now lets look at Romans 10 in context
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(the word of FAITH (the gospel of Christ )

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (confession has always been part of the response to the gospel call )

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Believest the words the gospel and obeys the words)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. ( see no new gospel from Acts chapter two it is the gospel for both Jews and the Greeks for ALL that call upon the name of the Lord (acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.( Acts 2216 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? ( The gospel is sent by God through man to be preach to the whole world and this is what God sent Peter to do In Acts 10 His showing proof with the signs was not him overstepping what he sent peter to do which was to give them the words whereby they ama be saved there response to the words is what purified their hearts.)

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! ( This is exactly what God did in Chapter 10 He sent Peter to give them them the words whereby the might be saved. It was through the words that Peter preached unto them that their hearts was purified. This fit well with biblical teaching making scriptures harmonize.)

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? ( it is clear that the gospel Is Gods words and they must be obeyed and in the gospel the response is given in Acts 2:38)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. ( So faith is believing all the words of God and responding to them accordingly )

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. ( the same gospel for both the Jews and the gentiles has been sent throughout the world. )

You quote "Titus 2:11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
(NOTE: Grace has a name its Jesus the Christ)" I say yes that grace id the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

You say "Grace: Is a Given freely & received thru FAITH: " and I say yes Everyone that responds accordingly to the gospel call that is what you call "received thru FAITH:"

And finally you close with Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
(Note: Hear about Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection > Believe it > Receive Salvations Eternal Life Seal Jesus Holy Spirit baptism)
And I agree somewhat with you the only difference is in how we determine what is meant by believe, You divorce baptism but I include all the words on baptism as presented in the same gospel we both are talking about. The gospel is a call that needs to be answered. We are given the answer to how to respond to the call it is through baptism in Christ name to wash away sin which is our calling upon the name and it then gives us the indwelling spirit which is our seal of salvation.

Biilybob65 said:

You said "At Pentecost (Acts 2): Repent > Water > Spirit. At Cornelius' house (Acts 10): Spirit > Water. God reverses the order & Jewish believer witnesses cannot deny Gentile inclusion."
It biblically went Acts 2;4 the spirit comes upon the Apostles Peter preached the gospel they heard the words repented was baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins and received the holy ghost (the indwelling spirit as a seal)

You said "The Holy Spirit/Eternal life is a GIFT GIVEN thru Faith " The Holy Spirit (the seal for eternal life) is a gift given through THE FAITH (the gospel)

You said "The Gospel for the Body of Christ Today
The Acts 2 message "Repent & be baptized". Is not the gospel for the Body of Christ." The bible says that there is only one gospel and it is found in Acts chapter and is still the same as for us all today
Acts 2:38ff
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

You point to 1 Cor 15:3,4 as if it is a different gospel but it is the same as Acts chapter 2

Now lets look at Romans 10 in context
8 But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
(the word of FAITH (the gospel of Christ )

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. (confession has always been part of the response to the gospel call )

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. Believest the words the gospel and obeys the words)

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. ( see no new gospel from Acts chapter two it is the gospel for both Jews and the Greeks for ALL that call upon the name of the Lord (acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.)

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.( Acts 2216 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.)

14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? ( The gospel is sent by God through man to be preach to the whole world and this is what God sent Peter to do In Acts 10 His showing proof with the signs was not him overstepping what he sent peter to do which was to give them the words whereby they ama be saved there response to the words is what purified their hearts.)

15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! ( This is exactly what God did in Chapter 10 He sent Peter to give them them the words whereby the might be saved. It was through the words that Peter preached unto them that their hearts was purified. This fit well with biblical teaching making scriptures harmonize.)

16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? ( it is clear that the gospel Is Gods words and they must be obeyed and in the gospel the response is given in Acts 2:38)

17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. ( So faith is believing all the words of God and responding to them accordingly )

18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world. ( the same gospel for both the Jews and the gentiles has been sent throughout the world. )

You quote "Titus 2:11 For the [remarkable, undeserved] grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
(NOTE: Grace has a name its Jesus the Christ)" I say yes that grace id the gospel of Christ for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.”

You say "Grace: Is a Given freely & received thru FAITH: " and I say yes Everyone that responds accordingly to the gospel call that is what you call "received thru FAITH:"

And finally you close with Eph 1:
13 In Him, you also, when you heard the word of truth, the good news of your salvation, and [as a result] believed in Him, were stamped with the seal of the promised Holy Spirit [the One promised by Christ] as owned and protected [by God].

14 The Spirit is the guarantee [the first installment, the pledge, a foretaste] of our inheritance until the redemption of God’s own [purchased] possession [His believers], to the praise of His glory.
(Note: Hear about Jesus sin atoning death & resurrection > Believe it > Receive Salvations Eternal Life Seal Jesus Holy Spirit baptism)
And I agree somewhat with you the only difference is in how we determine what is meant by believe, You divorce baptism but I include all the words on baptism as presented in the same gospel we both are talking about. The gospel is a call that needs to be answered. We are given the answer to how to respond to the call it is through baptism in Christ name to wash away sin which is our calling upon the name and it then gives us the indwelling spirit which is our seal of salvation.

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Your reply erases the Jewish only covenant framework Scripture builds from John's baptism straight through Acts 10, as laid out in the OP.

You keep insisting "one gospel" while ignoring that the stewardship/administration of that gospel was not the same for Jews & Gentiles until God Himself broke the pattern in Acts 10.

To be clear I've never presented more then ONE gospel. Acts 2 & 10, Peter preached the death & resurrection of Jesus Christ exactly as all New Testament writers do.

John's baptism was Israel only, no Gentiles, no exceptions (Matt 10:5-6, 15:24, Acts 3,26, Rom 1:16, 2:9-10 Eph 2:12). Jesus' ministry was Israel only (Matt 10:5–6; Matt 15:24). Pentecost was Israel only, men of Judea - men of Israel - Jews from every nation (Acts 2:5, 14, 22).

You keep dragging Gentiles into a Jewish feast, under Jewish law, hearing a Jewish prophet fulfill a Jewish prophecy to a Jewish audience.

Acts 2:38 is not a universal formula; it is Peter addressing covenant‑bound Israel under the guilt of killing their own Messiah. When you quote Acts 2:39, you ignore that AFAR OFF is Isaiah's language for scattered Jews, not Gentiles (Isa 57:19). And when you claim Romans 10 teaches the same response pattern as Acts 2, you skip the fact that Paul explicitly says righteousness now comes "apart from the law" (Rom 3:21) & that salvation is given the moment one believes (Rom 10:9–10; Eph 1:13), not after water.

Cornelius proves this: the Holy Spirit fell before water (Acts 10:44–48), which destroys your Acts‑2‑for‑all theory. If Acts 2:38 were the universal gospel, God would never have reversed the order. The truth is simple: Scripture shows Jews first, Jews only, until God Himself opens the door to Gentiles by giving the Holy Spirit without water. You're trying to force Gentiles back under a Jewish stewardship God Himself closed.

Dispensation
A God given administration of His will: Seen in Noah's covenant (Gen 6:18), Abraham's promises (Gen 12:1–3 & Rom 4:13), Israel under the Mosaic Law (Ex 19–24). And beginning in Acts 10:44 the dispensation of grace revealed through Christ (John 1:17; Eph 3:2; Rom 3:21–26).

Let me try this in this manner. The gospel of Acts 2 was for all people ALL see verse 39. It was to the Jews first to reconcile them back to God. He went to the people he worked with to bring the gospel into being. He knew that most would reject him as did happen so he continued with his plant to bring in all nations see Acts 2:39. The gentiles were always to receive the same gospel as with the Jews but he went to them first knowing that most would reject him so he turn to the gentiles as he had planned from the beginning. It was not just a gospel centered on the Jews they were just the first in line. All nations were to hear and respond to the same gospel God just had the order in which it was to happen but still the same gospel nothing different from Jews to gentiles but the time frame in which they were presented by God's will.

You really need to get past the outpouring trying to make it a salvation moment because you are really missing the point there and can't seem to open your eyes to the context. The outpouring was not a salvation event it was a confirmation only event and scripture points that out.

Once deep in the mid-acts dispensational system of faith-alone, likely for most, no coming out of it, though I and maybe one I personally know did. Not much different with other systems, yet I've chatted with and read from some who did switch systems.

Baye's Theorem caught my eye a few days ago.

Just an off the wall question unrelated to the OP . Does anyone else have issues with this website checking verification of bots or is it just mine?

Biilybob65 said:

Just an off the wall question unrelated to the OP . Does anyone else have issues with this website checking verification of bots or is it just mine?

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Yes, we're all experiencing this.
If I suddenly disappear from CC for a while... - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

studier said:

Once deep in the mid-acts dispensational system of faith-alone, likely for most, no coming out of it, though I and maybe one I personally know did. Not much different with other systems, yet I've chatted with and read from some who did switch systems.

Baye's Theorem caught my eye a few days ago.

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I completely agree.

Kudos to you and Billybob65 for your patience.

Biilybob65 said:

Let me try this in this manner. The gospel of Acts 2 was for all people ALL see verse 39. It was to the Jews first to reconcile them back to God. He went to the people he worked with to bring the gospel into being. He knew that most would reject him as did happen so he continued with his plant to bring in all nations see Acts 2:39. The gentiles were always to receive the same gospel as with the Jews but he went to them first knowing that most would reject him so he turn to the gentiles as he had planned from the beginning. It was not just a gospel centered on the Jews they were just the first in line. All nations were to hear and respond to the same gospel God just had the order in which it was to happen but still the same gospel nothing different from Jews to gentiles but the time frame in which they were presented by God's will.

You really need to get past the outpouring trying to make it a salvation moment because you are really missing the point there and can't seem to open your eyes to the context. The outpouring was not a salvation event it was a confirmation only event and scripture points that out.

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You're still assuming what the text never says - that Acts 2 was a universal pattern for all people in all places. But the context of Acts 2 is unmistakably Jewish from start to finish. Peter is preaching at a Jewish feast, to Jews under Mosaic Law, in Jerusalem, about their national guilt for crucifying their own Messiah (Acts 2:5, 14, 22, 36). Nothing in the chapter involves Gentiles, Gentile inclusion, or Gentile response patterns. When you quote Acts 2:39 as if ""afar off"" means Gentiles, you're ignoring Isaiah's own use of that phrase for scattered Jews (Isa 57:19). Peter is not redefining the audience - he is quoting a Jewish prophet about a Jewish dispersion.

The fact remains: Acts 2 is Israel under covenant, not the Body of Christ under grace. That's why Peter says nothing about the cross removing sin for all nations, nothing about justification apart from the Law, nothing about salvation by faith alone & nothing about the Holy Spirit being given upon belief. Those doctrines appear later through Paul (Rom 3:21–26; Rom 4:5; Eph 1:13; Gal 3:2) which he explicitly says he received by direct revelation from the risen Christ (Gal 1:11–12). You're reading later revelation back into an early Jewish event.

Cornelius is the turning point because God Himself reverses the Acts 2 order. The Holy Spirit falls before water (Acts 10:44–48). That is not a ""sign"" to confirm Acts 2 - it is a correction to show that Gentiles are accepted outside Mosaic law seals & without the Jewish repentance‑water‑Spirit sequence. Peter himself interprets the event this way: God purified their hearts by faith (Acts 15:8–9), not by baptism.

Romans 10 also contradicts your position. Paul says righteousness is now revealed apart from the Law (Rom 3:21), salvation is given the moment one believes (Rom 10:9–10) & the Holy Spirit is received upon hearing & believing the gospel (Eph 1:13). None of that matches Acts 2’s Jewish covenant formula. You keep quoting Romans 10 as if it teaches Acts 2, but Paul is teaching the opposite: Jew & Gentile now come the same way - by faith without water.

You keep saying "one gospel,"" & I agree - there is one gospel: Christ's death & resurrection. Peter preached in Acts 2 & 10 & Paul preached it through his letters. But Scripture shows different stewardships of that one gospel: John's baptism for Israel, Pentecost for Israel & then the opening of the door to Gentiles in Acts 10. The message is the same; the administration is not. That's why Paul calls his ministry a ""dispensation of grace"' (Eph 3:2) & says the righteousness of God is now revealed in a way it wasn't before (Rom 3:21). You're trying to force Gentiles back under a Jewish stewardship God Himself closed.

studier said:

We understand the systematic theory. Repetition is unnecessary.

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What you're calling ""repetition"" is the biblical storyline itself. The covenant sequence Scripture lays out from John's baptism through Acts 10. If that framework is already understood, then the conclusion should be obvious: you cannot insert Gentiles into Jewish only covenant rituals without collapsing the categories the text itself maintains.

The issue isn't whether the pattern has been explained enough. The issue is whether the pattern can be overturned by a single verse or assumption. It can'!

The Jewish only scope of John's baptism, Jesus' ministry, Pentecost & the early chapters of Acts is not a theory, they are the narrative of the New Testament & the moment God includes Gentiles, He does so by reversing the Jewish order (Acts 10:44–48)

Peter's own testimony destroys the idea that Acts 2:38 is a universal salvation formula: at Cornelius' house the Holy Spirit fell on the Gentiles while Peter was still preaching (Acts 10:44) & Peter says they ""received the Holy Ghost as well as we"" > before water (Acts 10:47). When challenged, Peter explains the Holy Spirit fell on them ""as on us at Pentecost"" (Acts 11:15). He identifies it as the fulfillment of Jesus' promise of the Holy Spirit baptism (Acts 11:16) & concludes that God ""GAVE them the like GIFT as he did unto us" (Acts 11:17). At the Jerusalem Council he gives the final interpretation: God ""gave them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us… purifying their hearts by faith"" & ""put no difference between us and them"" (Acts 15:8–9). If Peter says God made no distinction & purified them by faith before water, then Acts 2 cannot be imposed on Gentiles without contradicting the apostle who preached it.

read

not read - too much repetition and circularity

FlyingDove said:

Peter's own testimony destroys the idea that Acts 2:38 is a universal salvation formula: at Cornelius' house

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This is the "testimony" of Peter at the house of Cornelius:

Acts 10:47
"Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Where in these two sentences does Peter claim that what he commanded in Acts 2:38 does not apply to the house of Cornelius?

The house of Cornelius were commanded to be water baptized for the remission of sins just as Peter and his companions were baptized.

The "just as we have" is referring to what happen at Pentecost not the remission of sin given in Acts 2:38.

Water baptism is the moment of the remission of sins not belief or tongues.

Mark 1:4
Luke 3:3
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1st Peter 3:21
etc.

You are attempting to surmise away the clear command of Acts 2:38.

With this reasoning nothing in the Bible is safe.

Lamar said:

With this reasoning nothing in the Bible is safe.

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Reposting. Absolutely correct.

Lamar said:

This is the "testimony" of Peter at the house of Cornelius:

Acts 10:47
"Surely no one can stand in the way of their being baptized with water. They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have.”

Where in these two sentences does Peter claim that what he commanded in Acts 2:38 does not apply to the house of Cornelius?

The house of Cornelius were commanded to be water baptized for the remission of sins just as Peter and his companions were baptized.

The "just as we have" is referring to what happen at Pentecost not the remission of sin given in Acts 2:38.

Water baptism is the moment of the remission of sins not belief or tongues.

Mark 1:4
Luke 3:3
Acts 2:38
Acts 22:16
1st Peter 3:21
etc.

You are attempting to surmise away the clear command of Acts 2:38.

With this reasoning nothing in the Bible is safe.

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The issue isn't whether Peter permitted water baptism-everyone agrees he did. The issue is what Peter said the event meant & on that point his own interpretation contradicts your claim.

From the Gospels through Acts 10, Jesus' ministry & the entire baptismal framework remain Israel‑1st & Israel‑only: He sends the 12 specifically not to Gentiles but to the lost sheep of Israel (Matt 10:5–6) & He affirms that salvation is ""of the Jews"" (Jn 4:22). Gentiles were outside Israel's covenant, outside its purification rites & had no part in John's baptism.

Pentecost itself was entirely Jewish-Jewish males required by the Law to attend, Jewish crowds from every nation (Acts 2:5), a Jewish feast in a Jewish city fulfilling a Jewish prophecy. Peter's audience is ""Men of Judea,"" ""all who dwell in Jerusalem,"" & ""Men of Israel."" Acts 2:38 is spoken into Jewish covenant categories, not Gentile ones, which is why you cannot broad‑brush Gentiles into John's baptisms or Peter's Acts 2 sermon-they simply do not belong there.

When God finally includes Gentiles in Acts 10, He deliberately reverses the Jewish order: the Holy Spirit falls on them before water (Acts 10:44–47). In Acts 11 Peter explains this was the same Holy Spirit‑baptism that happened “at the beginning,” tying Cornelius to Pentecost, not to Acts 2:38’s repentance‑water sequence. In Acts 15 Peter gives the final doctrinal interpretation: God has made no distinction between Jew & Gentile, ""purifying their hearts by faith"" & giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us—again, all before water.

Scripture is clear that at Cornelius' house the baptism protocol is inverted—Holy Spirit 1st upon belief, then water & that is the universal order for today's Body of Christ.

FlyingDove said:

The issue isn't whether Peter permitted water baptism-everyone agrees he did. The issue is what Peter said the event meant & on that point his own interpretation contradicts your claim.

From the Gospels through Acts 10, Jesus' ministry & the entire baptismal framework remain Israel‑1st & Israel‑only: He sends the 12 specifically not to Gentiles but to the lost sheep of Israel (Matt 10:5–6) & He affirms that salvation is ""of the Jews"" (Jn 4:22). Gentiles were outside Israel's covenant, outside its purification rites & had no part in John's baptism.

Pentecost itself was entirely Jewish-Jewish males required by the Law to attend, Jewish crowds from every nation (Acts 2:5), a Jewish feast in a Jewish city fulfilling a Jewish prophecy. Peter's audience is ""Men of Judea,"" ""all who dwell in Jerusalem,"" & ""Men of Israel."" Acts 2:38 is spoken into Jewish covenant categories, not Gentile ones, which is why you cannot broad‑brush Gentiles into John's baptisms or Peter's Acts 2 sermon-they simply do not belong there.

When God finally includes Gentiles in Acts 10, He deliberately reverses the Jewish order: the Holy Spirit falls on them before water (Acts 10:44–47). In Acts 11 Peter explains this was the same Holy Spirit‑baptism that happened “at the beginning,” tying Cornelius to Pentecost, not to Acts 2:38’s repentance‑water sequence. In Acts 15 Peter gives the final doctrinal interpretation: God has made no distinction between Jew & Gentile, ""purifying their hearts by faith"" & giving them the Holy Spirit just as He did to us—again, all before water.

Scripture is clear that at Cornelius' house the baptism protocol is inverted—Holy Spirit 1st upon belief, then water & that is the universal order for today's Body of Christ.

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"which is why you cannot broad‑brush Gentiles into John's baptisms " no one's doing this you keep repeating this but no one has said this but you. Now as for this "or Peter's Acts 2 sermon-they simply do not belong there." this is where you are wrong Petr was sent to Cornelius for this sole purpose. Those were the words that Peter was sent to preach to Cornelius and he did.

Then you say "When God finally includes Gentiles in Acts 10, He deliberately reverses the Jewish order: the Holy Spirit falls on them before water" and again you are wrong this is the same way it happened at Pentecost Acts 2:4 the spirit comes upon the Apostles then Peter preaches the gospel and they believe and are water baptized for the remission of sin and receive the gift of the holy ghost just as did the household of Cornelius. It was at the point of Acts 10:47,48 they were purified by THE FAITH.

You can not get it in you bias head that the Apostles and the Household of Cornelius both had the spirit come upon them before water baptism but it was not for the remission of sin and the receiving of the gift of the holy ghost. It was to show it was God at work in both cases. He was ussering in the kingdom in both cases and the power of witness was confirmation that it was God's plan not man.

The same gospel preached in Acts 2 is the same gospel that is supposed to be preached today.

Biilybob65 said:

"which is why you cannot broad‑brush Gentiles into John's baptisms " no one's doing this you keep repeating this but no one has said this but you. Now as for this "or Peter's Acts 2 sermon-they simply do not belong there." this is where you are wrong Petr was sent to Cornelius for this sole purpose. Those were the words that Peter was sent to preach to Cornelius and he did.

Then you say "When God finally includes Gentiles in Acts 10, He deliberately reverses the Jewish order: the Holy Spirit falls on them before water" and again you are wrong this is the same way it happened at Pentecost Acts 2:4 the spirit comes upon the Apostles then Peter preaches the gospel and they believe and are water baptized for the remission of sin and receive the gift of the holy ghost just as did the household of Cornelius. It was at the point of Acts 10:47,48 they were purified by THE FAITH.

You can not get it in you bias head that the Apostles and the Household of Cornelius both had the spirit come upon them before water baptism but it was not for the remission of sin and the receiving of the gift of the holy ghost. It was to show it was God at work in both cases. He was ussering in the kingdom in both cases and the power of witness was confirmation that it was God's plan not man.

The same gospel preached in Acts 2 is the same gospel that is supposed to be preached today.

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The issue is what Scripture says the events meant & how God Himself changed the Holy Spirit' dispensational stewardship (Acts 2 salvation given after & Acts 10 before water)

Under the Old Covenant & during early Acts, Israel's remission framework was tied to covenant repentance & national guilt (Acts 2:36–38), but remission itself always came by blood, never by water (Lev 17:11; Heb 9:22; Matt 26:28). Water purified the flesh (Heb 9:10), but only blood removed sin. Lev 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. That is why your claim that water remits sins cannot stand.

2ndly, Acts 2 Peter is preaching to Israel alone - ""Men of Judea,"" ""all who dwell in Jerusalem,"" ""Men of Israel"" (NO GENTILES!) - at a Jewish feast, in a Jewish city, fulfilling a Jewish prophecy, under Jewish covenant laws.

The Holy Spirit is given after repentance & water because Israel's covenant initiations were physical. Just as physical circumcision initiated the Old Covenant.

Gentiles were never under Israel's purification system, part of John's water baptism & never part of the Mosaic covenant. When God turns to the Gentiles in Acts 10, He does not repeat the Jewish order - He reverses it. The Holy Spirit/SALVATION falls on Cornelius' household while Peter is still preaching (Acts 10:44)

You can't change recorded scripture:
Mark 1:8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.
(NOTE: He shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost. Also see Mat 3:11, Lk 3:16 & Jn 1:33)

2 Tim 1:14 Refers to the Holy Spirit as a Good Deposit.

2 Cor 5:5, Eph 1:14 & 2 Cor 1:22. Refer to the Holy Spirit as "the earnest" = Deposit or Pledge.

Eph 1:13, 2 Cor 1:22 & Eph 4:30 Refer to the Holy Spirit as a Seal.

2 Tim 1:14 The Holy Spirit who dwells within us, guard the good deposit entrusted to you
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit dwelling within us. Is God's good deposit given us until the day of redemption)

2 Cor 5:5 God, who also hath given unto us the "earnest" of the Spirit
(NOTE: God's Holy Spirit dwelling within us is the earnest. Earnest translated from the Greek word: arrabon. Also means a deposit/pledge. In modern Greek arrabona is an "engagement ring.")

2 Cor 1:22 Who hath also "sealed us" & "given the earnest" of the Holy Spirit in our hearts
(NOTE: God has placed His Holy Spirit in the believers heart. As a DEPOSIT/PLEDGE & SEAL, until the soon coming day of our final redemption)

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(NOTE: You heard about Christ's finished sin redemptive payment & resurrection. When you believed/trusted, Christ sealed/baptized you with His Holy Spirit).

Eph1:14 Which is the "earnest" of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession
(NOTE: The Holy Spirit by which only Christ baptizes/seals & indwells us. Is God's earnest = a down payment/pledge)

Eph 4:30 grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are "sealed" unto the day of redemption
(NOTE: Believers are SEALED with God's Holy Spirit. Christ's pledge/promise that he will come for us)

GENTILES RECEIVE GODS ETERNAL LIFE GIVING HOLY SPIRIT - BEFORE WATER! - Peter explains the process:

Acts 10:
45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
(NOTE: Vs44, Gentiles RECEIVE Gods Eternal Life Gift-the Holy Spirit - BEFORE WATER!. Vs47, Gentiles HAVE received Gods Eternal Life Gift-the Holy Spirit. - BEFORE WATER!)

Acts 11: Peter says
16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life.
(NOTE: Vs16, Jesus alone baptizes with/in/by His Eternal Giving Holy Spirit. Vs18, GOD GAVE the Gentiles the same Salvation SEALING-Eph 1:13-14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22, 5:5, 2 Tim 1:14-FOREVER INDWELLING (Jn 14:16)- REPENTANCE GRANTING Holy Spirit- SAVED-SEALED-FORGIVEN-BY FAITH ALONE-BEFORE WATER!)

That is the dispensational shift - from a Jewish, water‑mediated reception of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 to a universal, faith‑based Spirit baptism in Acts 10. This is exactly how Gentiles become the fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham that he would be the father of many nations (Gen 17:5; Gal 3:8, 14). Not through rituals, but through faith.

Peter preached Jesus death & resurrection in Acts 2 & Acts 10. Same gospel message Paul preached (1 Cor 15:1-4 & Rom 10:9-10). But God changes the Holy Spirit administration from "repent from breaking covenant & be water baptized.

Gentiles were never under any covenants (Eph 2:12) During Peters message Gods the previous Holy Spirit' administering to ""hear, believe, receive the H/S, then be water baptized."" That is why Scripture is clear: at Cornelius' house the baptism protocol is inverted - Holy Spirit first, then water - and that is the universal order for the Body of Christ.