The book of Job

reneweddaybyday · Feb 17, 2026

tttallison said:
So you are saying an alligator beholds all high things, like when God met with his angels. And this alligator is king over all the children of pride.

I specifically stated "I'm not saying leviathan was a crocodile or an alligator" ... I provided an image showing the ground after an aquatic creature had passed through. This is what is spoken of in Job 41:30 ... the hide of the underside of leviathan was sharp and left marks in the "mire"

Job 41:30 Sharp stones are under him: he spreadeth sharp pointed things upon the mire.

There were sharp stone-like scales on the underside of the hide of leviathan. It might be good if you looked at the various translations of Job 41:30 I provided for you in Post 117. I'm not just making stuff up out of thin air concerning this verse.

tttallison said:
It would appear you agree that Job was striving with God, because Job confessed he was vile. That would also mean that Isaiah 45:9 applices to Job. Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Job believed God was contending with him ... read Job 10 ... and Job repeatedly asked God to show him what he had done so he could repent and have the fellowship between himself and God restored.

However, it was not God Who was inflicting Job for any wrongdoing on Job's part ... it was satan who attacked Job.

Job 2:4-6 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life. But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

tttallison said:
Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand?

Isaiah 44 speaks of the idolatry of Israel.

Just because a word appears in Job and the same word appears in Isaiah ... this does not mean what is written in Job applies to what is written in Isaiah (and/or vice versa).

Words are to be understood in the context within which the word is placed by the Author of Scripture.

tttallison said:
Job had a deceived heart.

chapter and verse, please.

tttallison said:
Under the first test Job did not sin. But under the second test Job did not sin with his lips. So what about his heart? Job well understood the two types of sinning, one with the lips, and one with the heart. Job though his sons had sinned in their hearts.

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

Job offered burnt offerings unto God on behalf of his children ... Job said "it may be that my sons have sinned" ... Job did not say they had sinned; nor did Job say he believed they had sinned. Job said "it may be". Job made offering to God in case they had sinned inadvertently or ignorantly.

the words "cursed God in their hearts" refers to sin being a curse to God. Job did not infer that his children had cursed God in their hearts. Job believed that sin ... any sin, whether inadvertent or knowingly committed ... was a curse to God.

tttallison said:
Job said many good scriptural things, but where was his heart. He condemned God so that he might be righteous.

All of them (Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu) stated Scriptural truth. The problem was the inaccuracy of attributing to Job some secret sin for which he needed to repent.

They all believed Job was being chastened ... Eliphas, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu believed Job was hiding sin.

Job kept asking God to reveal to him if and when he had sinned so he could repent.

None of them knew Job was under attack from satan.

satan attacks all mankind for no other reason than that's his ministry (steal, kill, destroy - John 10:10).

What sin had been committed by Adam and Eve prior to satan tempting Eve? ... what sin did the Lord Jesus Christ commit before satan tested Him?

A lot of the actions of satan in OT writings were attributed to God ... not because God was doing what was done by satan, but because it wasn't until the Lord Jesus Christ walked the earth that the activities of satan were exposed.

At the end of Job's trial, his family and friends came to him to comfort him and give to him ... they all still believed Job's affliction was from God ... not satan as is clearly revealed in Job 1 and 2.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

The affliction of Job is a direct result of the attack of satan ... 100% from satan.

tttallison said:
Mat 15:8 This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.

spoken by the Lord Jesus Christ concerning scribes and pharisees who appeared to be something they were not. you are in error if you believe Job was being referred to in Matt 15:8.

tttallison said:
Actually Strong's H2303 - ḥadûḏ refers to Job and not leviathan. It refers to Job being a potsherd who is under, or being threshed, or refined by Satan.

you and I are not in agreement in this point.

tttallison said:
You don't see God as the potter and mankind as the clay?

not in Job 41:30 as has been explained to you more than once by me (and by others as well).

.

tttallison · Feb 17, 2026

christophernyc said:
Let me be more specific: does the Lord speak of Job being righteous in a positive or negative way in Ezekiel 14?

Positive way.

christophernyc said:
The fundamental difference in your point of view is that your claim is that Job is not "saved". But based on what is *in the text* we know Job already had a relationship established with God. Furthermore, if Job was solely relying on himself, why would he be crying out to God, asking God to show him his sin, and wanting to restore his relationship with God?

Why can you not accept that Job's relationship with God was established prior to his ordeal? Why do you insist on making it something else, which requires omissions of the text and forcing ideas and other Scripture out of context into the story?

Yes, Job was patient. Again, consider the epistle by James (where Job is mentioned by name in chapter 5) and the theme of suffering:

James 1:2-4
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

James 5:10-11
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Job did not know to be just with God. Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If Job was saved he would already be just.

Job didn't know who, or where God was. Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job was striving with God, and wanted an independent judge. Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.

Job's charge against God. Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job makes another charge against God. Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job's second request for a judge. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Requirements for the judge. Job 9:34-35 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job repeats his requirements for the judge. Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

God's answer to Job. Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

Job speaks, and Elihu's reply. Then would I speak, and not fear him;------------if thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.(Job 33:5)

Job requested a judge of clay and God honored that request. God sent Elihu.

christophernyc said:
Job's ordeal is not a coming-to-faith story. It is a story involving a testing of Job's faith *that existed prior to his ordeal*. The *trying* or *testing* of Job's faith worked patience for him, and in the end, his already established faith was rewarded. Why? Because he passed the tests. Both of them.

It's painfully obvious that Job was clearly not trusting in himself anyway. The reason he mentions those things about his life (chapter 29, for example) is because his friends were accusing him of wrongdoing. Again, he's not proclaiming these things to boast and brag like some proud person. He is arguing his case to his friends who are lying about him. (Look at Eliphaz's last speech where he completely fabricates evils that Job has committed with no basis whatsoever.)

If Job was as prideful and self-righteous, as you claim he is, then why in the world would he be turning to God, seeking Him, and asking God to point out his sin? It's illogical according to your own opinion of Job. Your own ideas are contradicting each other.

How do we know Job trusted God through his ordeal? As mentioned, because Job is seeking God and begging to know what went wrong in their relationship. If Job was "lost" as you believe, why wouldn't God just show him right away? But that's not what the story is about. No, it's about Job's faith being tested, and God's silence was part of that test.

Job also states clearly that he trusts in God in Job 13:15 where he says, "Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him..."

As for Job 27:6, that is a continuation of Job's response to Bildad. For Job to admit he had committed a sin to incur his suffering would itself be a sin. Why? Because it would be a lie and contradict what God said from the beginning. Plus the friends are rebuked by God for not speaking what was right, as is obvious to anyone looking at the entirety of the story.

In Ezekiel 14, when God speaks of Job's righteousness, is it your belief that he is accusing Job of pride?

Also, how do you ascertain that Job's righteousness is a righteousness apart from God? God says Job fears God and shuns evil (the very definition of wisdom, by the way) and yet you infer this to mean something bad?

The perspective you espouse of Job and about this whole story is just bizarre. Have you ever considered taking what the text says at face value (specifically chapters 1 & 2) and moving on into the story from there?

In Ezekiel 14 Job is not being accused of pride.

After the second test God no longer stated that that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Check it out.

tttallison · Feb 17, 2026

tttallison said:
Positive way.

Job did not know to be just with God. Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God? If Job was saved he would already be just.

Job didn't know who, or where God was. Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?

Job was striving with God, and wanted an independent judge. Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.

Job's charge against God. Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job makes another charge against God. Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

Job's second request for a judge. Job 9:33 Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.

Requirements for the judge. Job 9:34-35 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.

Job repeats his requirements for the judge. Job 13:19 Who is he that will plead with me? for now, if I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.

God's answer to Job. Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.

Job speaks, and Elihu's reply. Then would I speak, and not fear him;------------if thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.(Job 33:5)

Job requested a judge of clay and God honored that request. God sent Elihu.

In Ezekiel 14 Job is not being accused of pride.

After the second test God no longer stated that that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause. Check it out.

The three friends said, Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Job said, Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

The spirit said, Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Notice that what the spirit said to Eliphaz, and what Elihu said to Job, and what God said to Job is all the same.

Search

The book of Job

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member

tttallison

Active member

tttallison

Active member