Please help me to understand

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decipher said:
God Almighty can not be sent by anyone. If anyone is sent, He is the sender. Jesus was in heaven with the Father when he was sent by Him to become a man and die. Jesus kept on saying that he was sent by the Father to complete a mission. According to Jesus, his bread was to do the Father's will. It seems that there is someone in charge, and it's not Jesus.
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1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Potentate
dunastēs
doo-nas'-tace
From G1410; a ruler or officer: - of great authority, mighty, potentate.

No person has seen Jesus and no person will ever see Jesus for He is God.

But He showed a visible image of Himself.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Jesus is God and man.

As God He is ruler.

As man He is a servant.

The man Christ Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit for God cannot be separated.
 
GWH said:
Blood, bone and flesh all refer to the perishable/physical body. Look it up in any medical journal.
Then 1Cor. 15:50 should make sense for you.
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Sight, hearing, and speech all refer to the perishable body. Does that imply that a spiritual body can't see, hear and speak?
 
PaulThomson said:
PaulThomson said:
In your theory, is the physical body Jesus is able to manifest in exactly the same physical body as He died and was buried in, but now enlivened directly by spirit rather than blood? Or is it a series of different bodies that He creates each time He manifests anywhere in person when He comes out of the spiritual realm into the physical?

Is the glorified resurrected body the exact same physical body that died, but with a set of upgrades added and handicaps healed? Or is the physical body that Jesus is manifesting physically after glorification a different recreated physical body each time it appears?
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Because the other Paul did not say, I do not know, but I have always envisioned heaven as Eden and heavenly bodies as looking like they did on earth but healed of deformities and disease, which is why I mentioned the scars of Jesus as a possible exception, because we will view them as beautiful. Apparently, "5th dimensional" spiritual bodies retain sight, hearing, and speech but gain the ability to live forever and eat without needing to go tinkle or :poop:.

Do you want to answer your own questions?
 
GWH said:
My "theory" is what Paul said in 1Cor. 15:35-50, which indicates that earthly bodies will be changed into spiritual bodies having
supernatural abilities while having a similar appearance to the physically/naturally body, but presumably healed of deformities,
although Jesus showed his scars to the doubting Thomas. I opine that this will be possible because the 5th dimensional being
can retain the abilities of the inferior 4-dimensional body) harmonizes the most Scripture.
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Are, in your opinion, glorified and spiritual bodies the same?
 
GWH said:
Because the other Paul did not say, I do not know, but I have always envisioned heaven as Eden and heavenly bodies as looking like they did on earth but healed of deformities and disease, which is why I mentioned the scars of Jesus as a possible exception, because we will view them as beautiful. Apparently, "5th dimensional" spiritual bodies retain sight, hearing, and speech but gain the ability to live forever and eat without needing to go tinkle or :poop:.

Do you want to answer your own questions?
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What, do you opine, happens to the food and drink in the glorified, or as you say spiritual bodies, that, according to you, have no need to " tinkle " or defecate?
 
bytheblood said:
What, do you opine, happens to the food and drink in the glorified, or as you say spiritual bodies, that, according to you, have no need to " tinkle " or defecate?
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My opinion is that we cannot imagine alternative reality in much detail,
so the best I can do is envision Earth as Eden and Eve with a heavenly body.

Why do you not answer your own questions?
 
GWH said:
My opinion is that we cannot imagine alternative reality in much detail,
so the best I can do is envision Earth as Eden and Eve with a heavenly body.

Why do you not answer your own questions?
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But you IMAGINED, in an "alternate reality", that glorified or "spiritual" bodies have no need to "tinkle" or defecate didn't you? To answer your question, I want to know your thoughts and how you arrived at them.
 
Inquisitor said:
I asked AI to examine the scripture regarding 'the angel of the Lord' and the angels identity.

Also asked AI whether a Theophany or a Christophany would be more accurate.

1️⃣ The Angel of the LORD speaks and acts as God Himself

In many passages, the Angel of the LORD is distinguished from God yet simultaneously identified as God.

🔹 Speaks as God (first person)

Exodus 3:2–6


“The angel of the LORD appeared to him in a flame of fire…” (v.2)​
…​
“God called to him out of the bush…” (v.4)​
…​
“I am the God of your father, the God of Abraham…” (v.6)​

— The narrative begins with the angel of the LORD but immediately says God speaks.


🔹 Receives worship / holy ground

Exodus 3:5


“Take your sandals off your feet, for the place on which you are standing is holy ground.”​

Compare this with ordinary angels:


Revelation 22:8–9


“You must not do that! … Worship God.”​

Ordinary angels reject worship; the Angel of the LORD does not.


🔹 Speaks with divine authority

Genesis 22:11–12, 15–18


“The angel of the LORD called to him from heaven…​
… now I know that you fear God, seeing you have not withheld your son… from me.”​

Then:


“By myself I have sworn, declares the LORD…”​

The Angel speaks as the LORD Himself.


🔹 Called God by humans

Genesis 16:7–13


After the Angel of the LORD speaks to Hagar:


“So she called the name of the LORD who spoke to her, ‘You are a God of seeing.’”​

🔹 Has power to forgive sin / remove guilt

Zechariah 3:1–4


“The angel of the LORD… said, ‘Behold, I have taken your iniquity away from you.’”​

Removal of sin is a divine act.


2️⃣ Ordinary angels are clearly different

Other angels consistently appear as servants or messengers.

They refuse worship

Revelation 19:10


“I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said… ‘Worship God.’”​

They speak for God, not as God

Luke 1:19


“I am Gabriel. I stand in the presence of God…”​

They are distinct, subordinate beings.


They are ministering spirits

Hebrews 1:14


“Are they not all ministering spirits sent out to serve…?”​

They are never identified directly as God.


3️⃣ Why the difference is so vast (from Scripture)

The Angel of the LORD:


  • Speaks as God
  • Bears the divine name
  • Receives reverence without rebuke
  • Exercises divine authority
  • Sometimes is distinguished from God yet also called God

Ordinary angels:


  • Are servants
  • Refuse worship
  • Speak in third-person authority (“thus says the Lord”)
  • Never claim divine identity

4️⃣ The New Testament clue

A major shift occurs:


After the incarnation, the title “Angel of the LORD” essentially disappears as a unique figure.


Instead:


John 1:18


“No one has ever seen God; the only Son… he has made him known.”​

John 12:41 (referring back to Isaiah’s vision)


“Isaiah said these things because he saw his glory and spoke of him.”​

The NT repeatedly teaches that the Son reveals God.


5️⃣ Theophany or Christophany? (Scripture-based reasoning)
Option A — Theophany

A visible manifestation of God.


Supporting idea:


Exodus 3 alternates freely between:


  • “angel of the LORD”
  • “God”
  • “the LORD”

This shows divine manifestation.


Option B — Christophany (pre-incarnate Son)

NT passages strongly shape this interpretation:


John 1:18


“No one has ever seen God…”​

Yet people clearly “see” God in Angel-of-the-LORD encounters — suggesting the visible revealer is the Son.


1 Corinthians 10:4


“The Rock was Christ.”​

Paul identifies Christ active in Old Testament events.


Jude 5 (textual tradition)


“Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt…”​

Again placing Christ in OT deliverance.


6️⃣ If forced to choose (purely from Scripture trajectory)

The biblical pattern points most strongly toward:

➜ Christophany (a pre-incarnate appearance of the Son)

Because:


  1. God is seen — yet John says no one has seen the Father (John 1:18).
  2. The figure is distinct from God yet fully divine.
  3. The Son is repeatedly presented as the one who reveals God.
  4. After Christ’s incarnation, this unique “Angel of the LORD” figure fades from Scripture.

7️⃣ Summary (scriptural comparison)

Angel of the LORD Other angels Speaks as GodSpeaks for GodCalled GodNever called GodReceives reverenceRejects worshipForgives / judgesServants onlyUnique OT figureMany created beings

Final scriptural conclusion

The Angel of the LORD is not merely another angel but a unique divine messenger who:


  • is distinguished from God,
  • yet identified as God,
  • and functions as God’s visible self-revelation.

Within the full biblical witness, this aligns most naturally with a pre-incarnate appearance of Christ.
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You know, only in the last book of the whole bible is Christ really revealed with all his glory, that's why that book was titled, REVELATION of Jesus Christ, right? Before that, during his ministry, Christ was only revealed to his disciples, others accused him of blasphemy; before his incarnation, any "angel of God" can only be concluded as theophany, because his true identity was not revealed.
 
Inquisitor said:
You may be confused Lovette.

Your quotation of 1 John 1-4, concerns false prophets.

A Christophany in the O.T has nothing to do with false prophecies rather, it is an alternative
way of understanding the scripture.
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I assure you, I've never been confused on this. What you call "Christophany" is a vision of Christ, any pre-incarnate appearance of Christ is a vision of Christ. An angel of the Lord, however, is not the same, that was God the Father speaking through a medium to his people, such as the one who wrestled with Jacob and the one appeared to Moses, therefore that was a theophany. I find this debate pointless and disagreeable. It's just semantics.
 
bytheblood said:
But you IMAGINED, in an "alternate reality", that glorified or "spiritual" bodies have no need to "tinkle" or defecate didn't you? To answer your question, I want to know your thoughts and how you arrived at them.
Click to expand...

My reference to tinkle and Eve's heavenly body were attempts at humor.
My imagination is informed by the observation that the NT does not describe alternate reality (heaven and hell) in detail beyond a few references in earthly terms (no suffering per Rom. 8:17-18, Matt. 25:21&23 and suffering per Matt. 25:30, 41&46).
I must assume you have not arrived at better imaginings/thoughts.
 
GWH said:
My reference to tinkle and Eve's heavenly body were attempts at humor.
My imagination is informed by the observation that the NT does not describe alternate reality (heaven and hell) in detail beyond a few references in earthly terms (no suffering per Rom. 8:17-18, Matt. 25:21&23 and suffering per Matt. 25:30, 41&46).
I must assume you have not arrived at better imaginings/thoughts.
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As best I can, I rely on God's thought's, gleaned from scripture, adding nothing to or taking nothing away from. I have not yet arrived to the level of your "better" imaginings/thoughts. Have a good night.
 
decipher said:
God Almighty can not be sent by anyone. If anyone is sent, He is the sender. Jesus was in heaven with the Father when he was sent by Him to become a man and die. Jesus kept on saying that he was sent by the Father to complete a mission. According to Jesus, his bread was to do the Father's will. It seems that there is someone in charge, and it's not Jesus.
Click to expand...

They are 3 in 1, but Jesus did not fully see into the future. However God the Father does.

I think it's confusing too. Jesus knew he had to die on the cross bc of the prophecies in the old testament and I'm guessing God the Father told him. But he didn't see it I don't think beforehand. He also doesn't know the day or hour for the end of the world. Only God the Father does.

I'm assuming they have different roles for a purpose. They're all the same age right? Eternal...the alpha and omega lol So maybe they wanted to hide things from the devil? So only the father knows. I'm not sure... That's the only reason I can think of. It seems like a military strategy to me.
 
tablet123 said:
1Ti 6:14 That thou keep this commandment without spot, unrebukeable, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1Ti 6:15 Which in his times he shall shew, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords;
1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Potentate
dunastēs
doo-nas'-tace
From G1410; a ruler or officer: - of great authority, mighty, potentate.

No person has seen Jesus and no person will ever see Jesus for He is God.

But He showed a visible image of Himself.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

1Jn 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead.

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,
Gal 4:5 To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Jesus is God and man.

As God He is ruler.

As man He is a servant.

The man Christ Jesus is the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

And the Spirit in Christ is still connected to the omnipresent Spirit for God cannot be separated.
Click to expand...
While I agree with most of your post, I disagree with the part where you say " no person has seen Jesus ". What I would agree with is that no man has seen Christ. It's like saying no man has seen you because they can't see your spirit. We, as was Jesus in His earthly sojourn, are three part beings, spirit, soul and body, legal requirements for man to live on earth. You also state that " no person WILL EVER SEE JESUS because He is God." WHAT?? I hope you have some strong scriptures to clearly back up those statements.
 
blueluna5 said:
They are 3 in 1, but Jesus did not fully see into the future. However God the Father does.

I think it's confusing too. Jesus knew he had to die on the cross bc of the prophecies in the old testament and I'm guessing God the Father told him. But he didn't see it I don't think beforehand. He also doesn't know the day or hour for the end of the world. Only God the Father does.

I'm assuming they have different roles for a purpose. They're all the same age right? Eternal...the alpha and omega lol So maybe they wanted to hide things from the devil? So only the father knows. I'm not sure... That's the only reason I can think of. It seems like a military strategy to me.
Click to expand...
We must realize firstly that the Word, Jesus, became a man, although fully God also, but did not operate as God on the earth. In humbling Himself, He left His omniscience ( didn't know who would sit on His right or left), omnipresence (had to walk or ride to get around) and omnipotence( an angel came and strengthened Him) in heaven (read and study Philippians 2). Secondly, He had the Holy Spirit without measure (there was no darkness in Him). Thirdly He prayed often, sometimes all night. The question may arise, how did He know men's hearts?, how did He know about the upper room?, the donkey being tied up?, etc., etc. He told His disciples that the Holy Spirit would tell them of things to come. Don't you think the H.S. told Him? I believe that Jesus discovered who He was through scripture ( Ma, didn't you say I was born in Bethlehem?) ( Pop, didn't you say we went down to Egypt?). He was made of "quick understanding" Isa. 11:2 and I believe that by the time His family went to one of the feasts and after the feast He stayed behind, and they came back and looked for Him for 3 days. When they found Him with the teachers in the temple and asked why did He stay behind ( I'm paraphrasing) He answered them saying " I must be about My Fathers business ." They were astonished, I believe Joseph was right there. He started this journey at 12 yrs. old and,( it's just me), but I believe He turned thirteen during this trip. When a Jewish boy turns thirteen he becomes a man. I believe He knew what His mission was from that time on, to fulfill scripture and/or righteousness.
 
bytheblood said:
As best I can, I rely on God's thought's, gleaned from scripture, adding nothing to or taking nothing away from. I have not yet arrived to the level of your "better" imaginings/thoughts. Have a good night.
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Well, the reason I share insights on CC is to give folks a boost in their understanding of ultimate reality,
just as others have helped me. IOW, as the song says, I want to pass it on.

It only takes a spark, to get a fire going,
And soon all those around, can warm up in glowing.
That’s how it is with God’s love
Once you’ve experienced it
You spread his love to everyone;
You want to pass it on (pass it on)

What a wondrous time is spring, when all the trees are budding,
The birds begin to sing, the flowers start their blooming,
That’s how it is with God’s love
Once you’ve experienced it
You want to sing, it’s fresh like spring
You want to pass it on (pass it on)

I wish for you my friend, this happiness that I have found
You can depend on him, it matters not where you are bound
I’ll shout it from the mountain top
I want the world to know,
the Lord of love has come to me
I want to pass it on.

:love:
 
bytheblood said:
Then you posted ' the Greeks were saved first ."
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Well, on the day of Pentecost, pilgrims from every nation of the known world were present, they may be identified as Jewish converts, but also Gentiles, so you tell me whether they count as Greeks or not. Afterwards, the Ethiopian eunuch was the first saved, then Cornelius the centurion the second, so again, you tell me whether they count as Greeks or not.
 
Lovette said:
Well, on the day of Pentecost, pilgrims from every nation of the known world were present, they may be identified as Jewish converts, but also Gentiles, so you tell me whether they count as Greeks or not. Afterwards, the Ethiopian eunuch was the first saved, then Cornelius the centurion the second, so again, you tell me whether they count as Greeks or not.
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The "first" saved were Jewish, the eleven disciples when Jesus appeared through a locked door ( and possibly also Jewish women) and said " receive ye the Holy Ghost" John 20:22, and the 120 in Acts 1, none of whom were Greeks. What don't you understand? Read the Bible to get it right, not just so YOU can be right.
 
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