Grace Saves, Faith Receives, Christ Secures

FlyingDove said:

Eternal life isn't earned or achieved; it's received through the One who gives it.

Grace = God's unmerited/unearned/undeserved favor

Jn 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection have everlasting life - present tense.)

Jn 3:18 He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers stand condemned > present tense < because they reject the Son.))

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: HATH/HAVE = present tense. Eternal life is received by faith alone, no repentance lists, no rituals, no works.)

Faith alone is needed. Scripture never adds repentance lists, obedience requirements, baptism, tithing, works, or ""until you slip up"" conditions. Believe & trust in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection & you have - present tense, right now, everlasting life.

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers have eternal life right now.)

Christ: The Author & Finisher of Faith

Heb 12:2 Looking to Jesus the author & finisher of our faith;
(NOTE: He begins it & He completes it.)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, """that we might be justified by the faith """OF""" Christ""", & not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
(NOTE: Justification = God judicially declaring us righteous because of Christ's obedience, not ours.)

2 Thes 3:3 The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil
(NOTE: We stand by His faithfulness, not our performance.)

Ephesians 2: Grace Saves, Faith Receives, Works Follow

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]
(NOTE: Vs 8 Grace is a compassionate GIFT from God (you are a sinner that deserves death - Rom 6:23) His Grace enables you to access Christ's sin atonement. Vs 9 No works are involved/allowed beyond faith placed in Christ's work. So its all about how great He is, not how great we think might think our works are)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works
(NOTE: Works follow salvation - they never produce it.)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Faith produces obedience - not the other way around.)

Jude 24 To him that is able to keep you from falling & present you faultless before the presence of his glory with great joy
(NOTE: Jesus is our Advocate, - 1 Jn 2:1 & Heb 9:15 — He is also the One to whom all judgment has been given — Jn 5:22, 27. The One who defends you is the same One who judges you. Verdict for the believer: NOT GUILTY)

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
(NOTE: That saving name is Jesus the Christ.)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
(NOTE: Grace appeared in Christ Himself - grace has a name.)

GRACE HAS A NAME — JESUS THE CHRIST

Click to expand...

Well done!

The Good News of Christ Jesus.
Saved is saved.

FlyingDove said:

Eternal life isn't earned or achieved; it's received through the One who gives it.

Grace = God's unmerited/unearned/undeserved favor

Jn 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection have everlasting life - present tense.)

Jn 3:18 He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers stand condemned > present tense < because they reject the Son.))

Click to expand...

In John 3:16-21, it connects our belief in the Son with our obedience to God.

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: HATH/HAVE = present tense. Eternal life is received by faith alone, no repentance lists, no rituals, no works.)

Click to expand...

In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was speaking what is intrinsically required in order to experience the gift of eternal life in the present, not about the way to earn eternal life as the result of our works.

Faith alone is needed. Scripture never adds repentance lists, obedience requirements, baptism, tithing, works, or ""until you slip up"" conditions. Believe & trust in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection & you have - present tense, right now, everlasting life.

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers have eternal life right now.)

Christ: The Author & Finisher of Faith

Click to expand...

In Psalm 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith alone. The many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by believing in the Son along with the many verses that say that the way to have eternal life is by obeying God's commandments mean that the way to believe in the Son is by obeying God's commandments. In other words, the way to believe in God's Word made flesh is by following his example of embodying God's Word. This is also why there are many verses that connect our faith in God with our obedience to Him such as with Revelation 14:12 where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

Heb 12:2 Looking to Jesus the author & finisher of our faith;
(NOTE: He begins it & He completes it.)

Click to expand...

In Hebrews 5:9, Jesu has become source of eternal salvation for those who obey him.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, """that we might be justified by the faith """OF""" Christ""", & not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
(NOTE: Justification = God judicially declaring us righteous because of Christ's obedience, not ours.)

Click to expand...

We can't earn our justifications even as the result of having perfect obedience to the Law of God, which is makes it that much more true that we can't be justified by man-made works of the law. Yet is is also true that only the doers of the Law of God will be justified (Romans 2:13), so there is a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the Law of God other than in order to earn it as the result, namely faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31). The Law of God was never given as a way of becoming righteous, but rather it was given to describe the life of someone who is righteous as it describes the life of Christ, so the Law of God is what we are becoming a doer of it by becoming righteous. It would be contradictory to have the faith of God's Word made flesh instead of having faith in God's Word.

2 Thes 3:3 The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil
(NOTE: We stand by His faithfulness, not our performance.)

Click to expand...

The Lord is faithful to us by teaching us to be doers of good works.

Ephesians 2: Grace Saves, Faith Receives, Works Follow



Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]
(NOTE: Vs 8 Grace is a compassionate GIFT from God (you are a sinner that deserves death - Rom 6:23) His Grace enables you to access Christ's sin atonement. Vs 9 No works are involved/allowed beyond faith placed in Christ's work. So its all about how great He is, not how great we think might think our works are)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works
(NOTE: Works follow salvation - they never produce it.)

Click to expand...

We are new creations in Christ to do good works, so while Paul denies that we can earn our salvation as the result of our works lest anyone should boast, God graciously making us into a doer of good works is nevertheless a central part of His gif of salvation. In Romans 6:19-23, we are no longer to present ourselves a slaves to impurity, lawlessness, and sin, but are now to prevent ourselves as slaves to God and to righteousness leading to sanctification, and the goal of sanctification is eternal life in Christ, which is the gift of God, again being a doer of good works in obedience to the Law of God is His gift of eternal life.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
(NOTE: Grace appeared in Christ Himself - grace has a name.)

GRACE HAS A NAME — JESUS THE CHRIST

Click to expand...

In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not required to have first done those works in obedience to the Law of God in order to earn our salvation as the result, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is part of His gift of salvation.

FlyingDove said:

Scripture never defines faith as obedience, nor obedience as the way to obtain eternal life.

Click to expand...

I think you need to get a bit of understanding as to how God's Faith works obedience ----

Christ's Faith will propel obedience -----Faith Requires a Positive Response ----------

it is Christ;s Faith that propelled Noah into action to build the Ark when there was no rain ===so Faith and obedience are tied together

It was Christ's Faith that propelled Abraham to leave his home --He obeyed -and it was Christ's faith that propelled Abraham to obey killing Isaac ------

The Parable of the Good Samaritan is a perfect example of Christ's Faith propelling obedience ------

AI
faith is described not merely as a passive belief, but as an active, positive response to God’s grace. It is defined as a "lived response" that goes beyond intellectual agreement to involve tangible action, service, and obedience.

FlyingDove said:

Eternal life isn't earned or achieved; it's received through the One who gives it.

Grace = God's unmerited/unearned/undeserved favor

Jn 3:16 God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection have everlasting life - present tense.)

Jn 3:18 He that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
(NOTE: Unbelievers stand condemned > present tense < because they reject the Son.))

Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son "hath" everlasting life & he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him
(NOTE: HATH/HAVE = present tense. Eternal life is received by faith alone, no repentance lists, no rituals, no works.)

Faith alone is needed. Scripture never adds repentance lists, obedience requirements, baptism, tithing, works, or ""until you slip up"" conditions. Believe & trust in Christ's sin‑atoning death & resurrection & you have - present tense, right now, everlasting life.

Jn 6:47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life
(NOTE: Believers have eternal life right now.)

Christ: The Author & Finisher of Faith

Heb 12:2 Looking to Jesus the author & finisher of our faith;
(NOTE: He begins it & He completes it.)

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, """that we might be justified by the faith """OF""" Christ""", & not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified
(NOTE: Justification = God judicially declaring us righteous because of Christ's obedience, not ours.)

2 Thes 3:3 The Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil
(NOTE: We stand by His faithfulness, not our performance.)

Ephesians 2: Grace Saves, Faith Receives, Works Follow

Eph 2:
8 For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God;

9 not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation]
(NOTE: Vs 8 Grace is a compassionate GIFT from God (you are a sinner that deserves death - Rom 6:23) His Grace enables you to access Christ's sin atonement. Vs 9 No works are involved/allowed beyond faith placed in Christ's work. So its all about how great He is, not how great we think might think our works are)

10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works
(NOTE: Works follow salvation - they never produce it.)

Rom 16:26 Now revealed & made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, ""so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience"" ""that comes from faith""
(NOTE: Faith produces obedience - not the other way around.)

Jude 24 To him that is able to keep you from falling & present you faultless before the presence of his glory with great joy
(NOTE: Jesus is our Advocate, - 1 Jn 2:1 & Heb 9:15 — He is also the One to whom all judgment has been given — Jn 5:22, 27. The One who defends you is the same One who judges you. Verdict for the believer: NOT GUILTY)

Acts 4:12 Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.
(NOTE: That saving name is Jesus the Christ.)

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.
(NOTE: Grace appeared in Christ Himself - grace has a name.)

GRACE HAS A NAME — JESUS THE CHRIST

Click to expand...

Agree except for the misquote of Gal. 2:16, which should read "faith IN Jesus Christ".

FlyingDove said:

You're blending two categories the apostles always keep distinct: how we are saved & how saved people live.

Scripture never defines faith as obedience, nor obedience as the way to obtain eternal life. Jesus says eternal life is received the moment one believes (Jn 3:16, 3:18, 3:36; Jn 6:47). Paul says we are justified ""apart from works"" (Rom 3:28), ""not of works"" (Eph 2:9) & ""not by works of righteousness which we have done"" (Titus 3:5).

Romans 2:13 describes what the Law demands - not how anyone is saved - which is why Paul immediately concludes that no one is justified by doing it (Rom 3:20).

Hebrews 5:9 doesn't say obedience produces salvation; it says Christ is the source of salvation & those who obey are simply those who have already believed Him (Rom 1:5; 16:26).

Works follow salvation (Eph 2:10), but they never produce it. Grace trains believers after they are saved (Titus 2:11–12), not as the condition for receiving salvation. The apostles preach one order: grace > faith > salvation > obedience, never the reverse.

Click to expand...

While not all obedience is faith, the Bible frequently connects our faith with our obedience as the way to embody it, such with the example of faith listed in Hebrews 11 or with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments.

Then content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to experience driving it. Our salvation would be incomplete if we were only saved from the penalty of our sin while our lives continued to be directed as being doers of sin, so there is an aspect of our gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present by repenting and redirecting our lives towards being doers of the Law of God. The reason why our salvation requires us to be a doer of good works is not in order to become saved as the result, but because that is intrinsically the way to experience the gift of salvation. In Titus 2:11-13, we are not extrinsically required to have first done those works in order to become saved as the result and we are not extrinsically required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather we intrinsically required to do those works because that God graciously teaching us to experience doing those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

Romans 3:28, Ephesians 2:9, and Titus 3:5 all speak against being required to have first done enough works in order to become saved as the result, but they did not speak against being intrinsically required to do good works as the way to experience God's gift of salvation. The faith by which we are declared righteous apart form works also upholds the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31). God graciously teaching us to be a doer good is part of His gift of salvation (Ephesians 2:8-10). We become someone who has faith, someone who will be declared righteous, and someone who is a doer of the Law of God all at the same time and someone who is not one of those is also not the others, but we do not become righteous as the result of our obedience. What it means to be righteous is to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (1 John 3:4-7), so that can't be separated.

GWH said:

Agree except for the misquote of Gal. 2:16, which should read "faith IN Jesus Christ".

Click to expand...

-should have been translated -----

As Bible is very clear there is only one Faith -----so all Faith comes from God ----So it is Christ's Faith ----not OUR Faith ------

What is confusing for people especially new Christians with little spiritual understanding that saying Faith In Christ----- they take as meaning it is their own Faith that does the believing ------and therefore unless they are schooled spiritually as to what this Phrase ---Faith IN Christ means ---

it presents a problem -----as when the pray and are not answered they may feel like they don't have enough Faith -----

Healing is a big one -----I can't get healed cause I don't have enough Faith --it is not our Faith that heals -----it is the Faith of Christ that heals -----

This Phrase Faith In Christ -----actually means your are in union with Christ -----and His Faith is inbirthed in you when you hear the Gospel ------

The Faith Of Christ gives the person a better understanding of who's Faith it is really ---it is not our Faith that we can conjour up ----

AI

According to the
KJV Dictionary, faith in Christ is a saving grace, a heartfelt reliance, and a firm, affectionate confidence in the person, work, and atonement of Jesus

FlyingDove said:

You're still merging 2 categories the apostles always keep distinct: how we are saved & how saved people live.

Hebrews 11, James 2, Revelation 14 — none of these define faith as obedience. They describe what faith produces. Paul is clear: ""To him that worketh not, but believeth, his faith is counted for righteousness"" (Rom 4:5). Faith is not obedience; faith produces obedience. That's why Paul says we are justified ""apart from works"" (Rom 3:28), ""not of works"" (Eph 2:9) & ""not by works of righteousness which we have done"" (Titus 3:5).

Your ""gift that requires work to experience it"" analogy collapses because Scripture never calls obedience the content of salvation. Salvation is deliverance from wrath, forgiveness of sins, reconciliation with God & the gift of eternal life (Rom 5:1–11; Eph 1:7; Jn 3:16). Obedience belongs to sanctification, not justification. That's why Paul separates them: Saved by grace through faith (Eph 2:8–9), Created for good works (Eph 2:10). 2 different steps, 2 different categories

Titus 2 doesn't say obedience is salvation; it says grace trains those who are already saved. Romans 3:31 doesn't say faith is law‑keeping; it says faith upholds the law because the Spirit produces obedience after justification

The apostles preach one order: grace > faith > salvation > obedience.

Reversing that order turns fruit into the root & makes sanctification the definition of salvation - something Scripture never does.

Click to expand...

They did not keep those categories distinct. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of the Law of God (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to be a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. We can do works for a variety of reasons such as in order to embody our faith, in order to embody our love, in order to earn a wage, in order to look good in the eyes of others, in order to build godly character traits, in order to take revenge, in order to experience a gift, in order to repair the world, and so forth, so it is important to recognize that the Bible can speak against being required for do works for incorrect reasons like in order to earn our salvation as the result while not speaking against doing works for correct reasons like in order to embody our faith.

In Romans 1:5, we have received grace in order to bring about the obedience of faith. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds the Law of God. In James 2:18, he would show his faith through his works. In Hebrews 11, every example of faith is of someone doing works. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith is one of the weightier matters of the Law of God. In John 3:36, it equates believing in Jesus with obeying him. In Revelation 14:12, those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. In Hebrews 3:18-19, it equates unbelief with disobedience. In Numbers 5:6, disobedience is described as breaking faith. And so forth.'

While it is true that Abraham was declared righteous because he believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works because he believed God (Genesis 18:19) and that he obeyed the command to offer Isaac because he believed God (Hebrews 11:17), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Isaac, his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as they embodied his faith, but not insofar as they were earning it as the result of his works. We are declared righteous by faith apart from works insofar as there are no works that we are required to have done first in order to become righteous as the result, but not insofar as we become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31).

In Titus 2:11-13, it describes the content of our salvation as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly. It doesn't say that we will do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather it describes our salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. Salvation from sin is not just about being saved from the penalty of sin and from God's wrath, but is also about being saved from continuing to live in sin (Philippians 2:12). God graciously teaching us to be doers of good works is intrinsically part of His gift of saving us from not being doers of good works. Our salvation is not just about being restored to how we were before as if we had never sinned, but is also about being made to be like Christ.

FlyingDove said:

The entire debate comes down to keeping 2 biblical categories distinct: how a person is saved & how saved people live.

Scripture consistently teaches that we are saved by grace through faith apart from works (Rom 4:5; Rom 3:28; Eph 2:8–9; Titus 3:5).

Then transformed to walk in obedience afterward (Eph 2:10; Titus 2:11–12). Passages about obedience, works & faithfulness describe the fruit of salvation, not the basis of it.

Abraham was justified by faith long before his works appeared (Gen 15:6) & James shows those works completed his faith, not that they created it.

The apostles always keep the order the same: grace > faith > salvation > obedience. Reversing that order turns sanctification into the definition of salvation, something Scripture never does.

The issue is simple: faith receives salvation; works reveal it.

Click to expand...

My point is that works are not extrinsic to salvation, so there we are not extrinsically required to have done first in order to become saved as the result (Romans 3:28, Romans 4:5, Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5) and we are not extrinsically required to do as the result or fruit of having first been saved, but rather we are intrinsically required to be a doer of good works because that the experience of being a doer of them in the present is part of the content of our gift of salvation. Jesus saves us from our sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so Jesus graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of it is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not being a doer of it. For example, we are not required to have first kept the Sabbath holy in order to become saved from not keeping the Sabbath holy as the result and we are not required to keep the Sabbath holy as the result of having first been saved from not keeping the Sabbath holy, but rather Jesus graciously teaching us to experience keeping the Sabbath holy is intrinsically the way that he is giving us his gift of saving us from not having that experience. So keeping the Sabbath holy is not how a person who has been saved will live but is how a person who is being saved is living in the present.

Again, Titus 2:11-13 does not say that we will be trained by grace to do those works after we have first been saved, but rather it describes the content of our gift of salvation as being trained by grace to do those works. The experience of being trained to be a doer of those works is intrinsically part of the content of our gift of salvation.

studentoftheword said:

-should have been translated -----

As Bible is very clear there is only one Faith -----so all Faith comes from God ----So it is Christ's Faith ----not OUR Faith ------

What is confusing for people especially new Christians with little spiritual understanding that saying Faith In Christ----- they take as meaning it is their own Faith that does the believing ------and therefore unless they are schooled spiritually as to what this Phrase ---Faith IN Christ means ---

it presents a problem -----as when the pray and are not answered they may feel like they don't have enough Faith -----

Healing is a big one -----I can't get healed cause I don't have enough Faith --it is not our Faith that heals -----it is the Faith of Christ that heals -----

This Phrase Faith In Christ -----actually means your are in union with Christ -----and His Faith is inbirthed in you when you hear the Gospel ------

The Faith Of Christ gives the person a better understanding of who's Faith it is really ---it is not our Faith that we can conjour up ----

AI

According to the
KJV Dictionary, faith in Christ is a saving grace, a heartfelt reliance, and a firm, affectionate confidence in the person, work, and atonement of Jesus

Click to expand...

I was going to disagree, but then you ended with the statement from the KJV Dictionary, so I agree,
but do you agree with yourself, or do you think it is only Jesus who has faith in himself?!

FlyingDove said:

The KJV Dictionary definition of ""of"" includes ""from, proceeding from, belonging to."”

Meaning ""faith OF Christ"" is a perfectly legitimate rendering—because it points to Christ's own faithfulness, His obedience, His righteousness, His finished work.

So yes, I agree with myself, because the grammar allows it & the theology demands it. And no, I'm not saying Jesus ""believes in Himself.""

I'm saying exactly what Paul is saying: We are justified by Christ's faithfulness, not ours. We receive that justification by believing IN Him.

Click to expand...

Oh, in that case I agree, but I would amend one of your comments as follows:

"Justification = God judicially declaring us righteous because of our belief in/acceptance of Christ's atonement,
not because of our obedience/works."

a neat detailed 3 part lesson

FlyingDove said:

The issue here isn't complexity, its category confusion. You're redefining salvation to include the entire Christian life (obedience, training, sanctification, spiritual growth) & THEN arguing that obedience is ""intrinsic"" to salvation because you've placed it inside YOUR definition.

But Scripture never does that. The apostles consistently separate how a person is saved (justification by grace through faith apart from works) from how saved people are transformed (sanctification, discipleship, obedience).

Titus 2 doesn’t say ""being trained is salvation""; it says the grace that brings salvation also trains believers afterward.

Blending those categories turns sanctification into salvation & makes obedience part of the saving act itself. Something the New Testament never teaches. Once the categories are kept distinct, the entire discussion becomes clear again.

Click to expand...

We can't be saved from our sin without turning from it, but rather turning from our sin is intrinsically part of being saved from sin. In Psalm 119:29:30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith alone. In. Titus 2:11-13, it describes the salvation that grace brings as being trained to do those works, but does not state that we are saved first and then we will do those works. The Apostles consistently spoke against earning our salvation as the result of our good works, but they did not speak against being taught to do good works as being part of our gift of salvation.

1Co 13:13 And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Charity, love in action, works is greater than faith.

And faith works by love.

No love then no faith.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God.

We are saved by grace through faith.

No faith then no grace.

No love then no faith then no grace.

1Co 13:2 And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.

No charity then you are nothing and faith void.

Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
Jas 2:16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

No charity then faith is dead.

Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

A person is justified by works and not by faith only.

That means works are necessary for salvation.

For if a person lacks works there is no faith.

1Jn 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jn 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.

Do not love in words but in deeds, works.

For love is only valid if done in works.

Works do save us for if we lack works then that is not love.

Which love is greater than faith.

Faith does not mean anything without charity, love in action, works.

1Ti 6:5 Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds, and destitute of the truth, supposing that gain is godliness: from such withdraw thyself.
1Ti 6:8 And having food and raiment let us be therewith content.
1Ti 6:10 For the love of money is the root of all evil: which while some coveted after, they have erred from the faith, and pierced themselves through with many sorrows.

People that preach godliness is gain withdraw yourselves from them.

For the love of money is the root of all evil for it neglects the poor and needy, and love is the fulfilling of the law.

People that go by their wants have erred from the faith.

2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

1Co 13:5 thinketh no evil;
1Co 13:6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth.

Charity does not think an evil thought and does not sin by the Spirit.

If a person does not have works to help people with their needs whatever it is then they lack charity.

If they love money and spend money for their wants then they lack charity.

If they hold on to sin then they lack charity.

Then there is no faith then no grace.

2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

People who say faith alone and they cannot abstain from sin then no love no faith no grace.

They will argue but they do not come to the truth.

We are saved by faith and not by works when we first confess Christ for that is all we can do.

Which God gets the glory for we are in the flesh and those works cannot save.

But after that we receive the Spirit we have to do works of love by the Spirit.

Which God gets the glory for they are His works.