Ephesians 2 is not preaching faith alone.

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ATG said:
True, which is why faith alone with no action does not save.

So, which do you have? Faith with works, or faith alone without works? It's not possible to have both at the same time.
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Don't take one part of what I said and quesion me, questions me on all of it.

FAITH ALONE DOES NOT SAVE ANYONE, deceiving ?

YOU ANSWER IS HERE.

My post on #148.

It is faith alone that saves.

I have faith so I believe.

I have faith so I repented, I decided to follow JESUS along with every word out of HIS mouth.

I have faith that JESUS will forgive my sins when I get baptized in JESUS name to remove them. Acts 2:38.

I have faith AFTER I obeyed HIM and was baptized that HE will fill me with the same Holy Ghost that JESUS filled HIS disciples in Acts 2:4.

My faith made me do my part and JESUS did HIS part by filling me with HIS spirit.

Faith is the key, faith equal actions not works.

No action no faith.

Note: Paul was speaking the church he started in Ephesus,

Ephesians 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Not the unsaved we can't take scripture out of context.
 
ATG said:
James{2:14}
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone...

James either does not understand what "faith alone" means, or James intentionally misrepresent it.



That makes James either ignorant or a troublemaker to Faith Alone Christians.
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James reinforced "faith alone".

James 2:22
You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected.

That faith in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the fundamental revelation in the scripture.

Works, legal works, fruit, love, repentance, sacraments, etc. On and on it goes.

Is all based on that simple belief that Jesus offered that free gift of salvation to anyone, that
calls on His Name.
 
ATG said:
James{2:14}
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone...

James either does not understand what "faith alone" means, or James intentionally misrepresent it.



That makes James either ignorant or a troublemaker to Faith Alone Christians.
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That is the response of a jackdonkey, not a respectful person.

The understanding James had is not what you have.

Try again.
 
Dino246 said:
ATG said:
And yet God says, that if we are not doing His works, then the faith we have within us, is our's alone, and not His faith at all.

Eph{2:8}
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

That is not what the verse says. It is saying that faith does not originate in us. It says nothing about faith that is "our's (sic) alone".
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Eph 2 says that the faith that saves does not come from us, but is the gift of God.

The faith that does not save comes only from man himself. That faith is from man's pride alone with works to boast of.

Ephesians 2:8
...not of works, that any man should boast.

Dino246 said:
Again, that is not what the verse says. It says that believing there is one God is good but insufficient.
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Correct.

Dino246 said:
It says nothing about having faith. It certainly says nothing about "the faith of devils".
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False.

Jas 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

Jas 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

Jas 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Only beleiving in the one true God, is the faith that is alone without works. To say believing in the one true God, is not that faith alone without works, is to isolate Scripture out of context of surrounding Scripture.

Only believing in the one true God in v 19, is that faith alone without works in vs17-18 & 20 that is insufficient to save the man.

Jas 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

Anyone saying they have faith without works, is a man's own faith alone, that cannot save him.


Dino246 said:
ATG said,
And anyone having faith in Christ and doing evil, has their faith in the wrong Christ, not Jesus Christ the righteous, who justifies no one that does evil.

Jer 26:3
If so be my people will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil of their doings.

The verse is irrelevant to your comment.
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Your comment is irrelevant to my comment and verse.

And the verse is relevant to warn anyone saying, that they have faith alone without works to save them. Without repenting from evil doing, no man having faith alone, can save them from God's righteous judgment of evil works.

Rom 2:3
And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

Dino246 said:
It appears to me that you have your own thoughts about what Scripture says, and you are unmoved by what Scripture actually says. Either that or you are reading Scripture through some very thick and dirty lenses of bias and preconceived notions.
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It is evident that you have your own thoughts about what Scripture says, and you are unmoved by what Scripture actually says in context.

That is reading Scripture out of context through some very thick and dirty lenses of bias and preconceived notions.
 
ATG said:
Eph 2 says that the faith that saves does not come from us, but is the gift of God.

The faith that does not save comes only from man himself. That faith is from man's pride alone with works to boast of.
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I see you like to repeat your errors.

ATG said:
Only beleiving in the one true God, is the faith that is alone without works..
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False.
 
Dino246 said:
Many readers of the KJV get that wrong. It is the 16th century way of saying "faith in Jesus Christ". It is distinguishing faith in Jesus from faith in other things. Check a modern translation unencumbered by blind tradition.
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I completely agree that translations of Scripture should not be treated as Scripture itself. For me, the KJ is normally most accurate, and never mistranslates anything, even if I don't always agree their translation is best.

However, before looking at this case, it's noted that you reject having the faith of Jesus Christ, and prefer your own faith in Christ.

Why not have the faith of Jesus, which He had in the flesh in order to overcome all temptation and only do good?

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

Why would anyone naming Christ not seek to have the faith of Jesus, whereby He Himself on earth always did righteousness, and lived in all manner of holiness at all times?

What faith would anyone prefer instead, that has doing otherwise in the name of Christ?

In any case, the translation of Jesus in the genitive is correctly applied to faith; The faith of Jesus Christ, πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ

And whenever Scripture emphatically speaks of having faith in Jesus, it's by the dative toward Jesus, not of Jesus, εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν

Act 24:24
And after certain days, when Felix came with his wife Drusilla, which was a Jewess, he sent for Paul, and heard him concerning the faith in Christ.

And God ensuring that there can be no honest misunderstanding the difference between faith in Jesus Christ, and the faith of Jesus Christ, He gives a Scripture wherein both are spoken of, so that they cannot both honestly translated the same:

Gal 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ (πίστεως Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ), even we have believed in Jesus Christ (εἰς Χριστὸν Ἰησοῦν), that we might be justified by the faith of Christ (πίστεως Χριστοῦ), and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Only by having the faith of Jesus Christ, can we have faith in Jesus Christ. Without the faith of Jesus, no man can believe in Jesus, nor keep His commandments:

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

'Keeping the faith' is keeping the faith of Jesus, which also keeps the commandments of God.

The declaration confirms that no man transgressing a commandment of the Lord, has the faith of Jesus, and so has no faith in Jesus.

1Jo 2:4
He that saith, I know him, and is not keeping his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
 
Dino246 said:
Jesus didn't need faith, because He is God and had seen God the Father.
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Jesus had no faith? He had no faith toward God? Unless someone wants to plainly say so, then saying Jesus didn't 'need' faith as a man on earth, is just another meaningless bromide of 'Faith Alone' ideology.

Jesus, as as man dwelling among men on earth, certainly did have and need faith toward God. He was God the Word in the beginning, and is God the Word in heaven, but also was God the Word in the flesh on earth, Jesus Christ.

Jhn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

1Jo 4:2
Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

To say that Jesus Christ had no 'need' of faith toward God like all men, is not only hypocritical, since as a man He taught all men the need to have faith toward God.

Did not He that had grace, and grew in grace, not also walk and die by grace? Yes.

Jhn 1:14
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Luk 2:40
And the child grew, and waxed strong in spirit, filled with wisdom: and the grace of God was upon him.

Heb 2:9
But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Did not He that taught faith more than any prophet and apostle, not live by faith Himself? Yes.

Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith:

Act 7:52
Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:

1Pe 3:18
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust,

And so, we conclude that Jesus the Just walked by faith, showing and teaching all men, that by faith toward God, all things are possible with God.

1Jo 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

And of course, If we must walk by faith, then it's impossible to walk as Jesus walked, if He walked not by faith.

And finally, if the man Jesus Christ did not Himself walk by grace through faith of His own toward the Father, then He cannot possibly be any example for any man on earth, to walk the same as He:

Heb 6:19
Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil; Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.

Heb 2:17
Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people. For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Heb 4:14
Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

Saying the man Jesus was not a man that needed grace and faith toward God, rejects walking as he walked, because He walked not by faith; Nor could He be any example for us to walk by faith...

And naturally, it's not at all strange, that those Christians who have their Faith Alone in Christ, and reject having the faith of Jesus Christ, also deny it's possible to walk even as Jesus walked; And to always do those things that please the Father, in doing His righteousness at all times with true holiness, without sin and evil doing:

Jhn 8:29
And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that is doing righteousness at all times.

1 Peter {1:15}
But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.


Dino246 said:
Who says that man cannot have faith in Jesus Christ? Again, you seem to be railing at non-existent windmills.
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Who indeed says that man cannot have faith in Jesus Christ? Again, you are misrepresenting the argument into something like a non-existent windmill.

My experience is that Faith Alone Christians almost never fail to say they have Faith Alone in Christ, and rarely speak of having faith in Jesus Christ. Which cannot be by mistake, because the apostles never speak of having any Faith Alone in Christ, and only speak of having faith in and of Jesus Christ.

The non existent windmill is imaginary Faith Alone in Christ.
 
Just_A__Follower said:
I haven’t heard many people following Jesus confess to being a sinner in pride. I have heard it many times confessed in humility.
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You hear people confessing to being sinners so often and so fervently, humility is replaced by pride.

Col 2:18
Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Isn't their humility entirely voluntary and many times on cue? Do they not speak against those things that they have not seen for themselves, such as always doing righteousness and walking as Jesus walked? Do they not speak from their own unbelieving minds, against the very Scriptures saying so?

Yes.

Just_A__Follower said:
Now on the other hand, I have heard many profess to being righteous in pride.
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I've rarely heard anyone confessing to being righteous, whether with humility or pride. I've heard many teach the righteousness of God and His faithful people, that are righteous as He is righteous.

Psa 106:3
Blessed are they that keep judgment, and he that doeth righteousness at all times.

1 John{3:7}
Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous

I don't believe John ever speaks of himself being righteous, but he certainly teaches being righteous as Jesus Christ by Scripture of God.

Just_A__Follower said:
To me sin is sin.
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Good. I never have either.

I just don't confess to sinning, when I'm not sinning. Nor should anyone be compelled to by Christians that are sinning.

Nor should any Christian doing righteously by Jesus Christ, care how many times with however much force, some Christians demand to hear all Christians confess, that they too are sinning sinners like themselves. With great humility, of course. Putting some real tears into it.

Seriously. No one can walk around talking about what God-awful sinners they are, and keep choking up about it. Unless like the professional mourners of old, they voluntarily practice it.[/QUOTE]
 
Just_A__Follower said:
I don’t redefine it like those in the post you replied to.
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Here's also where we must understand that sin, is only what God defines is sin, not man. Some Christians redefine sin against God, in two opposing ways:

1. To call sin a mistake, a slip up, or even an oopsie. Whether it be fornication, drunkenness, vile cursing, false accusation, etc...
Which is to excuse their own sinning as uncondemned by God as just a mistake.

2. And naturally then say all mistakes, slip ups, and oopsies are sins against God. Whether it be having an uncharitable thought, forgetting something, tripping on a crack, making less than a perfect score...

Which is to reject being righteous as Jesus Christ, and not sinning against God.

The latter is always consistently used as a strawman tool, to denounce any perfection in the body of Jesus Christ on earth. He the Head is given all powerful lip-service as being righteous at all times. But, the members of His body, so so sadly, are only still poor, imperfect, sinful 'human beings', just like all poor, imperfect, sinful 'human beings' on earth.

1Jo 1:3
That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.

1Jo 1:5
This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.

1Jo 3:5
And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever is abiding in him is not sinning not: whosoever is sinning hath not seen him, neither known him.

In Him, there is no member of His body sinning against Him. Else in Him there is sin.

However, there certainly is sin in the body of a sinful Christ, but not that of Jesus Christ the righteous.

Mark 13:22
For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
 
ATG said:
completely agree that translations of Scripture should not be treated as Scripture itself. For me, the KJ is normally most accurate, and never mistranslates anything, even if I don't always agree their translation is best.
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That makes total sense.
 
ATG said:
I completely agree that translations of Scripture should not be treated as Scripture itself. For me, the KJ is normally most accurate, and never mistranslates anything, even if I don't always agree their translation is best.

However, before looking at this case, it's noted that you reject having the faith of Jesus Christ, and prefer your own faith in Christ.
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Given that foolish comment, I seen no point in reading the rest of your blather.
 
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ATG said:
And so, we conclude that Jesus the Just walked by faith, showing and teaching all men, that by faith toward God, all things are possible with God.
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Your intent on proposing that Jesus lived by faith.

Yet, Jesus was God in human form.

Jesus came from above.

Jesus was the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

Jesus was the alpha and the omega of everything above and below.

Jesus was eternal and was with the Father before He stepped into the human form.

Jesus saw the devil ejected from heaven as a bolt of lightning.

Before Abraham Jesus had existed for eternity.

Jesus shared the glory with the Father before the incarnation.

Jesus and the Father are one.

Jesus needed to exercise faith?

You must be kidding.
 
Dino246 said:
Many readers of the KJV get that wrong. It is the 16th century way of saying "faith in Jesus Christ". It is distinguishing faith in Jesus from faith in other things. Check a modern translation unencumbered by blind tradition.


Jesus didn't need faith, because He is God and had seen God the Father. Your first statement is sound, the second is wrong, and the third is wacky.


That's not a complete sentence. Regardless, nothing is said in Ephesians 2 about "faith of man of himself". You have invented a windmill and are tilting at it.


Who says that man cannot have faith in Jesus Christ? Again, you seem to be railing at non-existent windmills.
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The literal translation is "the faith of the Son of God". It's one of the very few instances where I agree with the KJV. I like the Berean translation. It also gets it wrong. But the literal version of the Berean gets it right. So it is the translator's interpretation, not what it actually says.

To me, it makes perfect sense. Jesus is my life. I have His love to be my love, His patience to be my patience and His peace to be my peace. Why not have His faith to be my faith? I have natural love, natural happiness, natural peace and a certain amount of natural patience. Many will agree that we are saved by grace. They may not understand what that means, but OK. My Bible also tells me that I am saved by the life of Jesus. You don't hear many people talking about that.

It all comes down to who is doing the living. If it is Christ, then all is well. Lord Jesus cannot sin or fail. If it is us trying to please God, we will fail. Paul learned this. "It's no longer I, but Christ". When we see this, a great burden lifts off. The responsibility now lies with the Lord Jesus. We have faith or life would be impossible. We would not sit on a chair in case it broke, for example. But how much greater is the faith of Jesus! Why not avail ourselves of such faith?
 
Inquisitor said:
Your intent on proposing that Jesus lived by faith.

Yet, Jesus was God in human form.

Jesus came from above.

Jesus was the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

Jesus was the alpha and the omega of everything above and below.

Jesus was eternal and was with the Father before He stepped into the human form.

Jesus saw the devil ejected from heaven as a bolt of lightning.

Before Abraham Jesus had existed for eternity.

Jesus shared the glory with the Father before the incarnation.

Jesus and the Father are one.

Jesus needed to exercise faith?

You must be kidding.
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You forget that Jesus lived on earth as Man, not God. Jesus emptied Himself of all that made Him God. So yes, Jesus exercised faith. If you want chapter and verse, I'll quote it. I'm a bit busy right now.
 
Gideon300 said:
You forget that Jesus lived on earth as Man, not God. Jesus emptied Himself of all that made Him God. So yes, Jesus exercised faith. If you want chapter and verse, I'll quote it. I'm a bit busy right now.
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I’ll have to disagree on that one. Jesus emptied himself as in making himself a servant and humbling himself. He didn’t give up His deity. He was and is still God. He exercised faith but not the way we exercise faith. We exercise faith as in believing in something unseen and with hope. He exercised faith as trusting the Father, the way we have faith that our parents would feed us. He had perfect experiential, intellectual, and relational knowledge of the Father. We exercise faith without that full knowledge, hopeful and believing that He is faithful. He had zero doubts about the Fathers existence.
 
Jesus is the Word, (Jn 1:1)
the Word is faithful and true (Rev 22:6)
He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim 2:13)
 
Gideon300 said:
The literal translation is "the faith of the Son of God". It's one of the very few instances where I agree with the KJV. I like the Berean translation. It also gets it wrong. But the literal version of the Berean gets it right. So it is the translator's interpretation, not what it actually says.

To me, it makes perfect sense. Jesus is my life. I have His love to be my love, His patience to be my patience and His peace to be my peace. Why not have His faith to be my faith? I have natural love, natural happiness, natural peace and a certain amount of natural patience. Many will agree that we are saved by grace. They may not understand what that means, but OK. My Bible also tells me that I am saved by the life of Jesus. You don't hear many people talking about that.

It all comes down to who is doing the living. If it is Christ, then all is well. Lord Jesus cannot sin or fail. If it is us trying to please God, we will fail. Paul learned this. "It's no longer I, but Christ". When we see this, a great burden lifts off. The responsibility now lies with the Lord Jesus. We have faith or life would be impossible. We would not sit on a chair in case it broke, for example. But how much greater is the faith of Jesus! Why not avail ourselves of such faith?
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The reason I don't accept the version that says Jesus exercised faith in God is because faith is defined in Hebrews 11 as assurance of things not seen... but Jesus came from the Father and was certain He was returning to the Father, so He had knowledge, not mere assurance.

It makes perfect sense to me that "the faith of Jesus" distinguishes it from faith in anything or anyone else, rather than indicating that Jesus exercised faith. It's a subtle but important distinction. I also don't consider the matter of primary importance. ;)
 
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