Loss of salvation???

Just_A__Follower said:

Let’s look at a scenario. An atheist finds himself stranded on an island with nothing but a Bible. He reads it and believes. He puts his faith in Jesus. He ends up dying on that island by himself having never had anyone to baptize him. Were his sins forgiven?

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In a way...
I was saved that way.
The Island I was on, was me being a Jew.
The Bible?
I was handed a tract.

I ended up dying without water baptism as well.
For, after I believed I could not get back my old man.
He had died.

My sins were just as forgiven as that stranded man's were forgiven.

It took me ten years to find out what had happened to me.

For, all it was to me?
I just wanted to believe in Jesus.
I did not believe, so that something would happen to me.

It happened anyway.

Because, it is real.



grace and peace ..............

James456 said:

In the UK there are two main pentecostal denominations, AOG and Elim. They met once to see if they could unite as one pentecostal church, but this issue prevented it. AOG said you must speak in tongues as evidence of being baptised in the Spirit, whereas Elim disagreed

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The problem with “you must speak in tongues” is that it pressures people to just fake speaking in tongues. Then you’re left with people that believe they don’t have the Spirit. That can destroy a young persons view of God. “Does God not love me because I can’t speak in tongues?” “Am I not saved because I don’t speak in tongues?”

Musicmaster said:

It's interesting that this was before the Gospel of Grace since it is still before the conversion of Paul and the revealing of the mystery of the Gospel of Grace.
...

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Acts 8:12-18 did in fact occur prior to Paul's conversion. However, the Gospel of Grace began in Acts 2. And Paul's instructions and actions in Acts 19 parallel those in both Acts 2:38-42 and Acts 8:12-18.

Just_A__Follower said:

Did you continue to read to see that I don’t believe the same as the OSAS group that I believe you’re speaking of? Do I believed one can fall away? Yes which is why I gave examples. There are two perspectives to being saved. There is being saved in the moment. And there is being saved into eternal life. One is present and one is future. We can only see one of those through our eyes. God can see both. I know I’m once saved. God knows whether I’m always saved. We can’t lose our salvation and no one can take it but we can forfeit it. We are on the winning team and the only way to lose is to quit before the game is over.

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Ah.

I see what you mean by THROUGH THE EYES OF GOD.
I apologize for misunderstanding.

I agree totally.
We can know we are saved at this moment.
We cannot know if we will continue in our faith/belief,,,
but God does.

Thanks.

Musicmaster said:

...I realize some have brain farts when confronted with a distinction in gospels, but the differences are unmistakable for those who read scripture for what it actually states.



The habitual ignoring of who the various people were in scripture and where they were in relation to the gospels in force at that time, or not in force, and at the expense to failure to rightly divide the word of truth, it all ends up jumbled together into the gobbledygook mix of sloppy understanding of the realities.

That which had been hidden in God from the foundations of the world and not revealed to anyone until Paul on that roadway AND while he was in Arabia before retuning to Damascus, it all has to be arranged and divided properly to avoid the mass confusions of typical Westernized thinking. The timelines of it all are of such vast importance to our understanding of the storyline and the theologies derived from such.

MM

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There is but one gospel. And scripture reveals God used Peter to present that gospel to both Jews and Gentiles. Paul was later tasked with ministering to those of the Gentile nations.

Acts 15:7
And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles BY MY MOUTH should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.



Paul's letter to the Romans points out the need to obey the gospel, yet not all obeyed the gospel then, nor do many today.

Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Rom 10:16-17
But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Rom 1:16-17
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."



It is faith upon hearing the Word of God as first presented at Pentecost, and obedience to God's commands that bring about the reality He promises. THEREIN, therein what? Therein the gospel message is the righteousness of God revealed.



Acts 2:36-42
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers."

James456 said:

Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. 1Cor12:29-31

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Not all operate in the Spiritual gift of tongues that requires someone to interpret God's message via the Gift of Interpretation. However, every account reveals 100% of those who received the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. The manifestations of tongues serve various purposes. And one is evidence that the Holy Ghost has come to dwell inside a believer's body. And according to Paul only those who have the Holy Ghost/Spirit dwelling within are sons of God. (Rom. 8:9)

Wansvic said:

Not all operate in the Spiritual gift of tongues that requires someone to interpret God's message via the Gift of Interpretation. However, every account reveals 100% of those who received the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. The manifestations of tongues serve various purposes. And one is evidence that the Holy Ghost has come to dwell inside a believer's body. And according to Paul only those who have the Holy Ghost/Spirit dwelling within are sons of God. (Rom. 8:9)

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But the verse only states ''do all speak in tongues'' not '''do all interpret tongues'''

Wansvic said:

Not all operate in the Spiritual gift of tongues that requires someone to interpret God's message via the Gift of Interpretation. However, every account reveals 100% of those who received the Holy Ghost spoke in tongues. The manifestations of tongues serve various purposes. And one is evidence that the Holy Ghost has come to dwell inside a believer's body. And according to Paul only those who have the Holy Ghost/Spirit dwelling within are sons of God. (Rom. 8:9)

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Not every instance:
When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts8:15-17

My own faith has hit many rocky roads.
There are times I've even wandered from the truth, and have come back to God with a tantrum like a child.
But God always brings me back, when I seek him in the way that can't be comprehended by human language.
Because, it's not about what I think. It's about what I beleive.

Wansvic said:

The Word addresses the erroneous idea that the Holy Ghost is received upon belief in Jesus. It makes clear, on many occasions, that people can believe and still have not received the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:12-18
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,"



Acts 19:1-7
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

The account then goes on to confirm what Paul's initial question revealed. The Holy Ghost was not received when the twelve men believed in Jesus, nor when they were water baptized in the name of Jesus. What they sought actually became a reality when a Holy Ghost filled man assisted via the laying on of hands:

"And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."


Paul is a great example as well. Paul believed who Jesus was when He appeared to him on the road of Damascus. However, the biblical attests that God sent Ananias on the mission to assist in Paul receiving the Holy Ghost:

Acts 9:10-17
"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

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In the first example, they TELL you they believed and were Baptized in John’s Baptism, which never saved anyone.

These people were in Samaria, many miles away from Jerusalem. They almost certainly, although believing that Jesus was the Messiah, hadn’t heard that Jesus was crucified, died to pay their sin debt, and was resurrected.
No telephones for them to have known of those events.

So it would have been impossible for them to have been saved without hearing and believing THE Gospel unto Salvation.

The second, is a special circumstance, to anoint Paul as an Apostle of Christ. Also, being FILLED with the Holy Spirit, is different than being SEALED by the Holy Spirit until the Day of Redemption.

Hope that clears it up for you.

Musicmaster said:

Let's see who is being addressed in this:

Acts 2:36-39
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

None of that applied to Gentiles because Gentiles were outside the commonwealth of Israel because of their being on the other side of the middle wall of partition, without God, without Christ and without hope in the world. So, no. Repentance coupled with water baptism for the remission of sins, that was for Israel, not Gentiles who were still outside the commonwealth of Israel after the cross but before the fall of Israel (and I'm not talking about 70 AD). Paul at no time ever commanded water baptism for the remission of sins as did the twelve to Israel.

MM

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Paul never told anyone after the book of acts they needed to be baptized.

Lets look at who Paul was talking to,

Look who the letters are addressed to,

1 Corinthians,
1 Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,
2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both their's and our's:

2 Corinthians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints which are in all Achaia:

Romans,
1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)
3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:
7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Galatians,
1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead
2 And all the brethren which are with me, unto the churches of Galatia:

Ephesians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus:

Philippians,
1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons:

Colossians,
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, and Timotheus our brother,
2 To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Thessalonians,
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians which is in God the Father and in the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Thessalonians,
1 Paul, and Silvanus, and Timotheus, unto the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ:


All letters after the book of Thessalonians had nothing to with Paul’s ministry to churches.

Yep NOT THE UNSAVED but to churches who already been saved that is why you will not see Paul tell anyone how to be saved.

James456 said:

But the verse only states ''do all speak in tongues'' not '''do all interpret tongues'''

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You are missing the point. The Spiritual gift of tongues and the experience of tongues that manifest when a person is filled with the Holy Ghost are different manifestations. They serve different purposes. One experience happens to those when they become indwelt by the Spirit. (Acts 2:4, 10:43-48, 19:1-7) Whereas, not all will be used to speak God's message to a body of believers via the Spiritual gift of tongues.

Note Paul says that he who speaks in an unknown tongue is actually speaking directly to God. (1 Cor. 14:2) And those who are used in the Gift of Tongues speak a message to a church congregation which is afterward interpreted through someone operating in the Gift of Interpretation. (1 Cor 12)

All of the conversion accounts that provide the specific details indicate 100% spoke in tongues when the Holy Ghost came to dwell inside their bodies. If the statement that not all speak in tongues applied to this experience we would expect to see less than 100% speak in tongues. And that is just not the case.

Consider as well, how did the individuals in the Acts 8:12-18 know they had not received the Holy Ghost? What was missing? And what happened that left no doubt that He came to dwell inside of them later. Scripture implies what was missing in Acts 8 through confirmation in such accounts as Acts 10:43-48, and Acts 19:1-7.

James456 said:

Not every instance:
When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts8:15-17

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Again, How did they know they had not received the Holy Ghost?

Ouch said:

How do you think we get rid of our sins?

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This is a VERY strange question.

WE, don’t get rid of our sins. Jesus takes them away when we believe THE Gospel, of His death to pay our sin debt, and subsequent resurrection.

Ouch said:

You don't know the porpose of baptism is to remove our sins?

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The purpose of Baptism is an outward, public declaration of what has happened inward.

It is heresy to believe going under the water and coming up is what saves you.

You have consigned every deathbed confession of Jesus Christ to hell with that heresy.

PennEd said:

In the first example, they TELL you they believed and were Baptized in John’s Baptism, which never saved anyone.

These people were in Samaria, many miles away from Jerusalem. They almost certainly, although believing that Jesus was the Messiah, hadn’t heard that Jesus was crucified, died to pay their sin debt, and was resurrected.
No telephones for them to have known of those events.

So it would have been impossible for them to have been saved without hearing and believing THE Gospel unto Salvation.

The second, is a special circumstance, to anoint Paul as an Apostle of Christ. Also, being FILLED with the Holy Spirit, is different than being SEALED by the Holy Spirit until the Day of Redemption.

Hope that clears it up for you.

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The first example I gave does not involve John's baptism at all. The account concerns Samaritans who believed the gospel presented to them by Philip the Evangelist. They submitted to water baptism in the name of Jesus. And days later Peter and John came and assisted them in receiving the Holy Ghost.

The second point from Acts 19 reveals something right away as it relates specifically to Paul's question. Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed? His question reveals Paul did not believe the Holy Ghost was received the instant a person believes. And even after finding out the guys didn't know the whole story, the experience again proves the point. They received the Holy Ghost not at the moment of believing in Jesus but at the very end of the encounter when Paul laid hands upon them.

Receiving the Holy Ghost is a necessity for all believers in order to be born again. Paul was no different he needed what is essential in order to be born again.

Lastly, think about how the sealing you mention from Paul's letter to the Ephesians parallels with Acts 19:1-7. Many miss the point that it was 12 men of Ephesus who heard the word of truth presented to them by Paul, they believed and put their trust in Jesus as seen in their being water baptized in His name, and afterward the Holy Ghost of promise came to dwell inside of them.

Eph 1:13
In whom (Jesus) ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

PennEd said:

This is a VERY strange question.

WE, don’t get rid of our sins. Jesus takes them away when we believe THE Gospel, of His death to pay our sin debt, and subsequent resurrection.

The purpose of Baptism is an outward, public declaration of what has happened inward.

It is heresy to believe going under the water and coming up is what saves you.

You have consigned every deathbed confession of Jesus Christ to hell with that heresy.

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No where do we see water baptism sole purpose is to make a pubic declaration. The bible reveals sins are remitted upon obedience to water baptism. And the NT command of water baptism reveals the use of the name of Jesus, as the reality of remission of sins was made possible through His sacrifice. And that by God's design. (Luke 3:2-3, Mark 1:1-5, Luke 24:47, Acts 2:38, 22:16)

To suggest anyone is consigning others to hell for sharing God's Word is ridiculous. We all have choices to make and everyone is accountable for their own actions or inaction as the case may be.

PennEd said:

This is a VERY strange question.

WE, don’t get rid of our sins. Jesus takes them away when we believe THE Gospel, of His death to pay our sin debt, and subsequent resurrection.

The purpose of Baptism is an outward, public declaration of what has happened inward.

It is heresy to believe going under the water and coming up is what saves you.

You have consigned every deathbed confession of Jesus Christ to hell with that heresy.

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You do know your opinon is not going to work when you stand in front of JESUS right?

WHY WOULD YOU SAY WHAT YOU DID???

DID YOU LOOK IN GODS WORD FOR THE ANSWER? NO, NO YOU DIDN'T.

How do I know you didn't look, NOTHING you said is true nerver was true and never will be true.

If it was true you would add scriptures.

Do you really trust you enterting with your opinon leaveing out GODS WORD??

Sorry about you deathbed visits, I would ask why would someone lie to those who are on their deathbed!!!

HeIsHere said:

I am beginning to think that bad theology (as in wrong) affects comprehension skills over time.

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Honestly I don't know if it is because things said are too profound, they don't bother to read or their mind is filled with the answer they want they can't see anything else .. I have no clue.

I've come to realise one thing though, you can only explain a thing so many times then you have to leave them be.

James456 said:

Not every instance:
When they arrived, they prayed for the new believers there that they might receive the Holy Spirit, 16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. 17 Then Peter and John placed their hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit. Acts8:15-17

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The account does not specifically record tongues provided the evidence. But clearly there was evidence:

See Acts 18 were it states Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, so he could do it.

Also, scripture reveals truth is known/established when 2-3 scriptures reveal the same thing. (Deut. 17:6, 19:15, Matt. 18:16, and 2 Cor. 13:1) Note the accounts that specifically reveal tongues is the evidence that accompanies the experience. (Acts 2:4, 10:43-48, 19:1-7) In addition, there are no accounts that show anything other than tongues as evidence of the initial infilling.

Wansvic said:

The account does not specifically record tongues provided the evidence. But clearly there was evidence:

See Acts 18 were it states Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money, so he could do it.

Also, scripture reveals truth is known/established when 2-3 scriptures reveal the same thing. (Deut. 17:6, 19:15, Matt. 18:16, and 2 Cor. 13:1) Note the accounts that specifically reveal tongues is the evidence that accompanies the experience. (Acts 2:4, 10:43-48, 19:1-7) In addition, there are no accounts that show anything other than tongues as evidence of the initial infilling.

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In four out of five instances tongues are mentioned but not in the other one. And I repeat, Paul said:
''Do all speak in tongues?'' NOT ''Do all interpret tongues?''