Loss of salvation???

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The next part?

When we receive Jesus by believing in Him, His sacrificial death for our sins, and subsequent resurrection, we are saved (born again) and receive the Holy Spirit at that moment. Baptism is a confirmation, and obedience, to the above new creation. Baptism, although every Christian should do, is NOT a part of the essentials of salvation.

All the glory for That incredible gift by God is given to Jesus, not us performing something.

Are you trying to say there are those born again that DONT have the Spirit?


Romans 8:9

New King James Version

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.
The Word addresses the erroneous idea that the Holy Ghost is received upon belief in Jesus. It makes clear, on many occasions, that people can believe and still have not received the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:12-18
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,"




Acts 19:1-7
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them,
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"

The account then goes on to confirm what Paul's initial question revealed. The Holy Ghost was not received when the twelve men believed in Jesus, nor when they were water baptized in the name of Jesus. What they sought actually became a reality when a Holy Ghost filled man assisted via the laying on of hands:

"And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."


Paul is a great example as well. Paul believed who Jesus was when He appeared to him on the road of Damascus. However, the biblical attests that God sent Ananias on the mission to assist in Paul receiving the Holy Ghost:

Acts 9:10-17
"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.

And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."



 
I gave you your answers. Don't blame me for your inability to comprehend and I'll respond to what I want, it's a public forum. If the answers you get go over your head every time then maybe you need to do where the unintelligent conversations are being held. :D

Have a nice day.

I am beginning to think that bad theology (as in wrong) affects comprehension skills over time.
 
According to the Word, obedience to God's command of water baptism remits sin and is conditional upon belief in Jesus' sacrifice.

Faith takes God at His Word and does what He says must be done to accomplish what He says will be accomplished. Furthermore, God doesn't have to explain what He's doing or why He's doing it a certain way. He will always supply what is needed to get the job done. Our job is to believe and obey His commands.


Acts 2:38-41
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls."
Let’s look at a scenario. An atheist finds himself stranded on an island with nothing but a Bible. He reads it and believes. He puts his faith in Jesus. He ends up dying on that island by himself having never had anyone to baptize him. Were his sins forgiven?
 
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The Word addresses the erroneous idea that the Holy Ghost is received upon belief in Jesus. It makes clear, on many occasions, that people can believe and still have not received the Holy Ghost:

Acts 8:12-18
"But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.


Now when the apostles which were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent unto them Peter and John:
Who, when they were come down, prayed for them, that they might receive the Holy Ghost:
(For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)


Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,"

It's interesting that this was before the Gospel of Grace since it is still before the conversion of Paul and the revealing of the mystery of the Gospel of Grace.

Acts 19:1-7
"And it came to pass, that, while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
He said unto them,
Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?"


Notice that Paul ASKED if they had yet received Holy Spirit, he didn't state it emphatically. It was a question, not a declaration.

The account then goes on to confirm what Paul's initial question revealed. The Holy Ghost was not received when the twelve men believed in Jesus, nor when they were water baptized in the name of Jesus. What they sought actually became a reality when a Holy Ghost filled man assisted via the laying on of hands:

"And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied."

If you notice more of the panorama of that context coupled with a more systematic study of this topic, one can't help but to notice that Paul was addressing those who were under the Kingdom Gospel, not yet under the Gospel of Grace. I realize some have brain farts when confronted with a distinction in gospels, but the differences are unmistakable for those who read scripture for what it actually states.

Paul is a great example as well. Paul believed who Jesus was when He appeared to him on the road of Damascus. However, the biblical attests that God sent Ananias on the mission to assist in Paul receiving the Holy Ghost:

Acts 9:10-17
"And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord.
And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prayeth,
And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight.
Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he hath done to thy saints at Jerusalem:
And here he hath authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on thy name.
But the Lord said unto him, Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:
For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake.


And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost."

The habitual ignoring of who the various people were in scripture and where they were in relation to the gospels in force at that time, or not in force, and at the expense to failure to rightly divide the word of truth, it all ends up jumbled together into the gobbledygook mix of sloppy understanding of the realities.

That which had been hidden in God from the foundations of the world and not revealed to anyone until Paul on that roadway AND while he was in Arabia before retuning to Damascus, it all has to be arranged and divided properly to avoid the mass confusions of typical Westernized thinking. The timelines of it all are of such vast importance to our understanding of the storyline and the theologies derived from such.

MM
 
The next part?

When we receive Jesus by believing in Him, His sacrificial death for our sins, and subsequent resurrection, we are saved (born again) and receive the Holy Spirit at that moment. Baptism is a confirmation, and obedience, to the above new creation. Baptism, although every Christian should do, is NOT a part of the essentials of salvation.

All the glory for That incredible gift by God is given to Jesus, not us performing something.

Are you trying to say there are those born again that DONT have the Spirit?


Romans 8:9

New King James Version

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Morning, I don't do much talking I guess you believe the same as the person I was adressing?

I for sure don't say something I can't back up with HIS word.

How do you think we get rid of our sins?

Why do you say you get the Holy Ghost the moment you belive?

You don't know the porpose of baptism is to remove our sins?

Acts 2:38-39
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 2, they JESUS filled them with the Holy Ghost (spoke in tongues) and I'm guessing they got baptized with the rest of them in Acts 2:40-41 to remove their sins.

Acts 8, they got baptized and Philip had to send for Peter and John to recieve the Holy Ghost which may been days or weeks later? Maybe a month or more?

Acts 10, JESUS filled them with the Holy Ghost like HE did in Acts 2:4 and Peter commanded them to be baptized.

Acts 19, they were baptized and Paul laid hands on them and JESUS filled them with the Holy Ghost.

In all 4 cases baptism and filling with the Holy Ghost was present.

There are 4 examples of NOT getting the Holy Ghsot the moment you believe making your statement wrong.

So has JESUS filled you like HE did HIS disciples?

How were you baptized?
 
I KNOW what I believe Genez.

I DO NOT KNOW WHY you're posting it.
I do NOT KNOW what is in YOUR head.

WHAT do you want to say about what I said???

You know how to discourage and chase others off....

That is...
If you could.
 
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Yeah.
Can't have any type of conversation with you.
Just as I thought from the first day I got here.
You say this is a discussion board...
so why can't you discuss??

OK.
I'm out of my league.

Please do not respond to the post I just sent to you.

I'm leaving it up in case others care to respond.

Others that know how to have an intelligent conversation.

You were a forum moderator?
Did they kick you out?
 
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I said that those that hate the word MUST are also those that believe in OSAS.

You replied that you believe in OSAS.
Did you continue to read to see that I don’t believe the same as the OSAS group that I believe you’re speaking of? Do I believed one can fall away? Yes which is why I gave examples. There are two perspectives to being saved. There is being saved in the moment. And there is being saved into eternal life. One is present and one is future. We can only see one of those through our eyes. God can see both. I know I’m once saved. God knows whether I’m always saved. We can’t lose our salvation and no one can take it but we can forfeit it. We are on the winning team and the only way to lose is to quit before the game is over.
 
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I said since they were workers of iniquity they had no faith. You should probably learn the difference. There is absolutely no use in answering any of your questions Because your mind is completely closed. I follow Jesus not Peter, not Paul, not Arroyo Seco, not John G Schaepe, and not Frank Ewart. You are simply on here to preach your oneness theology and claim that anyone that doesn’t speak in tongues doesn’t have the Spirit. I’ve sat in the pews and heard it from the Pentecostal Oneness “we are the only ones that hold the truth and anyone that believes in the trinity is headed to hell”. Is that what you believe ouch? That I am headed to hell because I believe in a triune God and I don’t speak in tongues? If so just admit it. Do you love me enough, as Jesus commanded, to straight up give me the truth?

I have no problem telling you the truth, buy why you see it already.

I know what happens around here if I say someone is saved or they are not so I will keep my thoughts to myself. I don't know all you have done your whole life.

The truth is in the questions I asked, which now if you understand or I just comfirmend if you were on the fence, maybe run them by your pastor.

I didn't preach anything, I shared HIS WORD and asked SIMPLE QUESTIONS.

You know what is sad, looks like the Pentecostal church is the only ones who can read HIS word and obey, you said it! Sad.

I really don't think you beleiving the falshood of three gods will keep you out of Heaven, it's not obeying HIS word that will.

Your choice, maybe think on those question and get in HIS word to find the answeres.

None of us are perfect, we are all under construction.
 
Let's see who is being addressed in this:

Acts 2:36-39
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

None of that applied to Gentiles because Gentiles were outside the commonwealth of Israel because of their being on the other side of the middle wall of partition, without God, without Christ and without hope in the world. So, no. Repentance coupled with water baptism for the remission of sins, that was for Israel, not Gentiles who were still outside the commonwealth of Israel after the cross but before the fall of Israel (and I'm not talking about 70 AD). Paul at no time ever commanded water baptism for the remission of sins as did the twelve to Israel.
MM
The same message along with its requirements given by Peter was not limited to Jews; "For the promise is unto... as many as the Lord our God shall call." (Acts 2:39)

The Samaritans were the next to hear the message. (Jewish half-breeds/Acts 8:12-18) Keep in mind why the Samaritans were given the opportunity to hear the good news before the Gentiles. "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth: to the Jew first, and then to the Greek." (Rom. 1:16)

The Gentiles heard the same message and obeyed when the command was given to be water baptized in the name of Jesus. (Acts 10:43-48)

The last account to provide all of the details included in Peter's initial message at Pentecost is found in Acts 19:1-7. This account reveals many things of which some are:
1. Believing in Jesus does not automatically result in receiving the Holy Ghost.
2. Paul was preaching the same message and requirements as initially presented by Peter some 20+ year prior.
3. Interesting; it was twelve men who began preaching the gospel message, and verse 7 states it was about twelve men who witnessed the same truth to those in Ephesus for 2-3 years after learning the truth themselves.
4. Some believe that the accounts recorded in Acts 2, 8, and 10 were just to establish salvation was available to all groups of humanity. However, Acts 19:1-7 dispels that notion. The account makes it clear that every single individual is required to believe and obey God's established plan of salvation.

Acts 19:7-10
And all the men were about twelve.


And he (Paul) went into the synagogue, and spake boldly for the space of three months, disputing and persuading the things concerning the kingdom of God.
But when divers were hardened, and believed not, but spake evil of that way before the multitude, he departed from them, and separated the disciples, disputing daily in the school of one Tyrannus.


And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks."
 
That I am headed to hell because I believe in a triune God and I don’t speak in tongues?
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. 1Cor12:29-31
 
I have no problem telling you the truth, buy why you see it already.

I know what happens around here if I say someone is saved or they are not so I will keep my thoughts to myself. I don't know all you have done your whole life.

The truth is in the questions I asked, which now if you understand or I just comfirmend if you were on the fence, maybe run them by your pastor.

I didn't preach anything, I shared HIS WORD and asked SIMPLE QUESTIONS.

You know what is sad, looks like the Pentecostal church is the only ones who can read HIS word and obey, you said it! Sad.

I really don't think you beleiving the falshood of three gods will keep you out of Heaven, it's not obeying HIS word that will.

Your choice, maybe think on those question and get in HIS word to find the answeres.

None of us are perfect, we are all under construction.
According to you I don’t see the truth. Thank you for indirectly telling me I’m going to hell.

And you claim Pentecostals are the only ones that can read His word and obey it. That’s funny because 85-95% of Pentecostals believe in the trinity. So I guess you’re really saying only 5-15% of even Pentecostals can according to your claim. I guess you would say the 85-95% are true Pentecostals.

I’ll pray for you brother. By the way I forgive you for falsely accusing me those two times in our discussion. Love ya.
 
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I was thinking. Does a shipwrecked faith necessarily mean that there's no longer any (faith)ship? I think a faith can just figuratively be stuck on the crags.

Jude 1:12 speaks toward the crags in the water.
1Tim 1:19

There are so many crags in the water.
 
According to you I don’t see the truth. Thank you for indirectly telling me I’m going to hell.

And you claim Pentecostals are the only ones that can read His word and obey it. That’s funny because 85-95% of Pentecostals believe in the trinity. So I guess you’re really saying only 5-15% of even Pentecostals can according to your claim. I guess you would say the 85-95% are true Pentecostals.

I’ll pray for you brother. By the way I forgive you for falsely accusing me those two times in our discussion. Love ya.
I was raised pentecostal
Im not saying all evangelical churches are the same, but a Baptist minister once said:
''85% of evangelicals do not understand the justification/sanctification process''
Going by my experience, that figure would be not far off the mark
 
Let’s look at a scenario. An atheist finds himself stranded on an island with nothing but a Bible. He reads it and believes. He puts his faith in Jesus. He ends up dying on that island by himself having never had anyone to baptize him. Were his sins forgiven?
Why look to various scenarios in an attempt to dispel what God has clearly revealed in His Word? God is quite able to handle various scenarios as He sees fit. However, those who have seen/heard what is recorded in God's Word about water baptism must make a decision.
 
Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? 30 Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues[d]? Do all interpret? 31 Now eagerly desire the greater gifts. 1Cor12:29-31
According to scripture and my beliefs? No. According to ouch, if you don’t speak in tongues you don’t have the Spirit. We all have whatever He sees fit for us to have. I focus more on the gift Giver instead of the gifts.
 
According to scripture and my beliefs? No. According to ouch, if you don’t speak in tongues you don’t have the Spirit. We all have whatever He sees fit for us to have. I focus more on the gift Giver instead of the gifts.
In the UK there are two main pentecostal denominations, AOG and Elim. They met once to see if they could unite as one pentecostal church, but this issue prevented it. AOG said you must speak in tongues as evidence of being baptised in the Spirit, whereas Elim disagreed
 
I was raised pentecostal
Im not saying all evangelical churches are the same, but a Baptist minister once said:
''85% of evangelicals do not understand the justification/sanctification process''
Going by my experience, that figure would be not far off the mark
We all have our different beliefs. But most don’t believe that the denomination next door are hell bound because they believe differently.
 
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...

Notice that Paul ASKED if they had yet received Holy Spirit, he didn't state it emphatically. It was a question, not a declaration.
...
Exactly; Paul asked. You and others claim that the Holy Ghost is received upon belief. But seriously, think about it, why would Paul ask if they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed if he thought people received the Holy Ghost the moment they believed?

Whether one is willing to accept it or not. The proof is staring people straight in the face. Clearly, Paul knew the Holy Ghost was not received instantly upon belief.

Consider as well that the account even goes on to prove the point: The guys heard about Jesus, believed what Paul said. They got water baptized in the name of Jesus. And yet did not receive the Holy Ghost until Paul assisted through the laying on of hands.
 
Why look to various scenarios in an attempt to dispel what God has clearly revealed in His Word? God is quite able to handle various scenarios as He sees fit. However, those who have seen/heard what is recorded in God's Word about water baptism must make a decision.
Ok