No, not as necessary for salvation, necessary to come from salvation. Nothing is necessary for a man to do for salvation besides that God chose him for it, which salvation, is eternal given as Jesus Christ is the Savior and man is not. Through the Holy Spirit, and from salvation - not before - by being born again (from salvation), man becomes edified, manifests, demonstrates and continues with/in those attributes throughout their lives. Only those who have become saved are given the ability to do so.
The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?
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No, not as necessary for salvation, necessary to come from salvation. Nothing is necessary for a man to do for salvation besides that God chose him for it, which salvation, is eternal given as Jesus Christ is the Savior and man is not. Through the Holy Spirit, and from salvation - not before - by being born again (from salvation), man becomes edified, manifests, demonstrates and continues with/in those attributes throughout their lives. Only those who have become saved are given the ability to do so.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
If you have been made alive with Christ you must be in a justified state:
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions/sin—it is by grace you have been saved Eph2:4&5
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions/sin—it is by grace you have been saved Eph2:4&5
U
Undergrace1
Guest
OK, I will take you at your word:
But if, in seeking to be justified in Christ, we Jews find ourselves also among the sinners, doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker. Gal2:17&18
Justification is instantaneous once someone accepts Christ as their saviour, the justification Paul is writing about in the above clearly is not instantaneous, it takes time to be seen, what justification is Paul writing about?
Why does he ask the question: Doesn't that mean that Christ promotes sin?
And what does he mean when he states:
If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.
This directly relates to the post you wrote to me
Christ tells us in John 6 that He has come to do the Fathers will, and that it is the Father's will that His people be kept and raised up on the last day, to be presented spotless.
Being placed into Christ does not make us perfect, but Christ did not come to save the perfect, He came to save Sinners. The perfect have no need of a Savior!
So when we do sin, He give us a way back, it's called Godly sorrow, and a desire for repentance. This come from the fact that that we now have a renewed heart.
Yes, we become separated for a brief period, but are never lost. . . .
Question: if as the verses you posted states (eph 2:4 - 5) that the unsaved are spiritually dead in sin, how then as spiritually dead, are they of themselves, able to accept Christ? Wouldn't they first need to be made alive to do so? And being made eternally alive, by that, were they not saved? So, wouldn't that mean their acceptance came after and from salvation, not before; that is, that salvation preceded acceptance?
** correction - corrected the last sentence.
I have known a great many Christians who have wandered from their initial faith to live in sin yet they believe that, if they died, they would nevertheless enter into eternal life. One minister, who had been very popular Christian author and teacher said that when Christ returned He would be raptured to heaven even if he were to be plucked right out of a bed of adultery. While he was more bold than most, I have found a great many Christians who live in habitual sin but who comfort themselves with the deception that once they have been grafted into the Vine they have eternal life whether they CONTINUE abiding in Him or not. This is contrary to the teaching of Apostles and that of Jesus Himself. No this idea is not a "straw man" at all. It is very common because of human nature. Even when people do not say it out loud they practice this false believe by what they do.
Your statement that OSAS doesn't make any claims because it's not a person, is absurd. Our beliefs can make "claims" on us (whether explicit or implicit) and whether the idea is consistent with the truth or not.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
Gosh, Im a simple person.
First point. As Jesus said:
No one can come to me unless the Father draws him(through the Spirit)
I would say it is the Spirits conviction upon a person that enables them to accept Christ.
I would also say, at the moment they accept Christ as their saviour, they are made alive with Christ. They are then in a saved/justified state.
Sorry if Im a bit slow, but I don't really understand your last sentence in relation to what came before it. I simply see it is, when we come and accept Christ as our saviour we are immediately accepted. Sorry if that's not what you're looking for
Did I say that there were no such people? No.
What did I request? That he QUOTE anyone HERE who has claimed that. He has not done so despite repeated requests. He is constantly railing against beliefs that NOBODY HERE is defending. He is implicitly accusing people HERE of believing those things... repeatedly.
Do you really consider such behaviour defensible?
His statement is a fallacious anthropomorphism. Period. He is employing it to avoid accountability for his accusations.
Let him defend his own claims.
U
Undergrace1
Guest
I like the parable of the sower in this regard. A person makes a shallow commitment, ie. A young person is forced to go to church by their parents, they make some friends there who are all committed christians, they don't want to be the odd one out, so on that basis they too make a commitment but it is obviously a shallow one. Would God, despite knowing it was a shallow commitment officially place them in a saved state anyway? according to the parable, I would say yes. But because they made a shallow commitment they walk away when trials and persecutions come, they only believe for a while. No osas for them
However, in the third example of the parable, people constantly get side tracked from the path they should be on by worldly things. Jesus did not say they walked away, or got booted out, only that they did not mature, you mature by evermore practising right from wrong. So you could say they did have osas
One group did, and one group did not
However, in the third example of the parable, people constantly get side tracked from the path they should be on by worldly things. Jesus did not say they walked away, or got booted out, only that they did not mature, you mature by evermore practising right from wrong. So you could say they did have osas
One group did, and one group did not
No, believe me, I'm the slow one, not you and thank you for your patience.
As I understand it, Eph 2, makes no mention of anyone accepting Christ to be made alive: they were spiritually and totally dead but God chose to intervene to make them alive, with nothing else occurring between those two spiritual states - completely dead and then alive.
It is my understanding that the Holy Spirit only indwells someone when they become born-again; and becoming born-again the product of salvation, not before it nor independent of it.
In my last statement I was just restating what I said previously - that it seems to me we must first be made spiritually alive to be able to make a choice to accept - that a spiritually dead person is unable to make a choice in the spiritual realm just as a physically dead person is unable to make a choice in the physical realm - that being given spiritual life, I believe, had to occur first.
Pardon you, your ignorance is showing. I'm not going to correct your false doctrine. I've been over the difference between being born again and the salvation of the soul a number of times.
I don't know why you have to keep on about it. Do you fear your own salvation? The mouth reveals the state of the heart. When I bow my knee before my Lord and Saviour to worship Him, my boast will be in what He did for me, not in how well I lived my life.
I examined my own experience to evaluate what you are saying. I realise that not all come to Christ the same way.
I "made a decision" at a Billy Graham crusade in 1967. It did not last - parable of the sower. 5 years later, my boss witnessed to me, patiently, one on one and thoroughly as well. I was convicted of my sinful state before God. I knew that I was condemned. I asked the age old question, "What must I do"? And he told me the good news that followed on from the bad news.
I accepted Christ as eagerly as a drowning man grabs a lifebelt. My salvation was entirely selfish. The moment I accepted Christ, two things happened. A great load of guilt lifted off me. And I knew that I had found what I had been searching for. I knew that I was different. I did not know enough to explain it; that came later.
It's something of a mystery. The first time I heard the gospel, I was stirred emotionally. I don't remember one word of Billy Graham's preaching. I remember what my boss said to me 5 years later. I had been through hell in the previous few months. God allowed this to prepare my heart. I do know that the moment I accepted Christ, I was not born again. Being born again came immediately after I received Christ. Psalm 119:130 says that the unfolding of God's Word brings light. 2 Corinthians 4:6 says that God shone His light into our hearts. Paul says that the gospel, God's word, is the power to bring salvation (Romans 1:16).
Does that answer the question? Probably not. All I can say is what it seemed to me from my point of view. I do know that I had no relief from guilt until I accepted Christ. So personally, I do not believe that I was alive spiritually until I received Christ.
This fits with John 1:12
"But to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God......" Believe and receive first, then being born again.
There is no way by which you may be saved in sin. Every soul that gains eternal life must be like Christ, “holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners.”
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
By faith we can be changed into Christ's image. Imparted righteousness.
People, if saved at all, must be saved day by day, hour by hour. They must hunger and thirst for the righteousness of Christ, the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
Many excuse themselves for keeping Sunday by saying, “My father and grandfather were good Christians, and they died keeping Sunday. They will be saved, and I am willing to run the risk of doing as they did. The whole world keeps Sunday; and I am as well off as the rest of the members of my church.” But will these excuses be accepted in the Judgment?—No. Had their fathers had the light and the messages of warning which God has sent to his people in these last days, they would, if they were candid, God-fearing men, have obeyed the commandments of God. Our fathers are not accountable for the light they never received, or for the messages of warning they never heard; “If I had not come and spoken unto them,” said Christ, referring to the Jews, “they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.... If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.”
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
By faith we can be changed into Christ's image. Imparted righteousness.
People, if saved at all, must be saved day by day, hour by hour. They must hunger and thirst for the righteousness of Christ, the illumination of the Holy Spirit.
Many excuse themselves for keeping Sunday by saying, “My father and grandfather were good Christians, and they died keeping Sunday. They will be saved, and I am willing to run the risk of doing as they did. The whole world keeps Sunday; and I am as well off as the rest of the members of my church.” But will these excuses be accepted in the Judgment?—No. Had their fathers had the light and the messages of warning which God has sent to his people in these last days, they would, if they were candid, God-fearing men, have obeyed the commandments of God. Our fathers are not accountable for the light they never received, or for the messages of warning they never heard; “If I had not come and spoken unto them,” said Christ, referring to the Jews, “they had not had sin: but now they have no cloak for their sin.... If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.”
Behold the cross of Calvary. There is Jesus, who gave His life, not that men might continue in sin, not that they may have license to break the law of God, but that through this infinite sacrifice they may be saved from all sin. Christ said, “I sanctify Myself, that they also might be sanctified,” John 17:19, by the perfection of His example. Will those who preach the truth to others be sanctified by the truth themselves?
I appreciate your reply, but I would respectfully disagree. Wouldn't His light have first had to shine into your heart in order for you to accept Christ? And if so, then wouldn't that mean you had been made spiritually alive prior to accepting Him?
I think that John 1:12, should be seen in light of 1:13. In 1:13, we are told we are born again comes by the will of God, not from having accepted Christ and means that becoming saved was also by Him which preceded it.
[Jhn 1:13 KJV] 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Thank you for your reply, Gideon. I'm tied up right now watching my granddaughter's softball game and don't want to miss that. I have something tomorrow that I have to do but will try to reply to your post Monday (or so) - not ignoring it. Roger
One question that divides many is....
What is Sin?
And
Can we obey the 10 commandments by the power of Jesus?
If we differ on these points we will not come to any agreement.
Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Just because the majority believe the law is cast aside and not to be kept, does not mean they are correct.
God's 10 laws have never changed over time. Jesus magnified them, broadened them. And today they are just as important to obey as Jesus did.
In our own strength we will fail but With Jesus, by the Holy Spirit we can overcome sin.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
What is Sin?
And
Can we obey the 10 commandments by the power of Jesus?
If we differ on these points we will not come to any agreement.
Isa 42:21 The LORD is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he will magnify the law, and make it honourable.
Just because the majority believe the law is cast aside and not to be kept, does not mean they are correct.
God's 10 laws have never changed over time. Jesus magnified them, broadened them. And today they are just as important to obey as Jesus did.
In our own strength we will fail but With Jesus, by the Holy Spirit we can overcome sin.
Phi 2:5 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
Phi 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
J
James456
Guest
I’d like to have a stab at it
Paul wrote:
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. Eph2:4&5
God will accept you as you are when you come to him, under a righteousness of faith in Christ. You may be a drunk, womaniser, thief, and constantly use foul language, a true slave to sin, but you are instantly justified by faith in Christ. However, you cannot stay in that state. As Paul says, you cross over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness leading to holiness (Rom6:17-19) but it takes time. It is this justification of your Christianity, your faith that is being mentioned in the passage. (Gal2:17&18)
So, let’s take the example given. A man is a drunk, constantly has affairs, is a constant thief and continuously uses foul language. He accepts Christ as his saviour. Immediately he stops having affairs, the stealing stops, and the foul language lessens. So evidence of his new found faith is plain for all to see. But drinking is not so easy, he has been the slave of alcohol for decades. One night he goes to church and heartily joins in the service, worshipping and praising God while his breath smells of alcohol. What would someone think who did not understand the message? ‘’’If this person is saved Christ must promote sin for here he is heartily joining in the service with his breath smelling of alcohol.’’’ However, the man hates the fact he still drinks and is continuing to trust Christ to get him to where he needs to be. He is still entitled to rejoice in his new found salvation, otherwise he must go around in sackcloth and ashes until he is as pure as the driven snow. He is standing on a righteousness of faith in Christ, not one of obeying the law
Immediatley after Paul asks the question ‘’Doesn’t that mean that Christ promotes sin’’: He answers it.
Absolutely not! 18 If I rebuild what I destroyed, then I really would be a lawbreaker.
What had Paul sought so hard to destroy? Righteousness of obeying the law. Therefore, if he returned to that way, and sought to defeat the sin in order to justify his Christianity he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker/sinner.
You might as well give up! According to them, King David had to be saved at least 10 times - because he continued to sin. It's either that, or he stands condemned even though he was a man after God's own heart!
No, not saved 10 times.
He REPENTED and got back in to right standing with the Lord after having fallen away in to sinful behavior.
The greasy grace people falsely claim Christians can live in sin and are still saved and still going to Heaven even as they live in sin.
It's amazing how slow these people are. Incredible!
They are obviously pro sin which is why they advocate for being able to live in sin and still be saved.
What did I request? That he QUOTE anyone HERE who has claimed that. He has not done so despite repeated requests. He is constantly railing against beliefs that NOBODY HERE is defending. He is implicitly accusing people HERE of believing those things... repeatedly.
Are these remarks addressed to me or someone else?
We must repent of our sins and believe in the savior to receive the gift of eternal life. "Death" does n