Loss of salvation???

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MM. We know each other from another Forum and y ou know I will not be agreeing with you.

That's cool.

There is only one gospel.

Yes. Only one is valid for today since the fall of Israel.

There is only one Kingdom.

Agreed, which is the one to come in the Millennium with the world ruled by Christ through Israel.

Jesus came preaching the Kingdom of God...
both the one He wanted to create on earth...a spiritual kingdom.

Hmm, perhaps Abraham and his descendants didn't understand that. Anyone who knows and has talked with my fellow Jews of the Judeo flavor knows that they today are still looking to the coming of Messiah as a powerful and influential leader, even though they missed Him by centuries, thus their acceptance of the man of sin as the Messiah until he demands personal worship.

This Kingdom was near:

Matthew 4:17
17 From that time Jesus began to [a]preach and say, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”


Luke 17:20-21
20 Now having been questioned by the Pharisees as to when the kingdom of God was coming, He answered them and said, “The kingdom of God is not coming with [a]signs to be observed;
21 nor will they say, ‘Look, here it is!’ or, ‘There it is!’ For behold, the kingdom of God is [b]in your midst.”


The Kingdom is at hand.
The Kingdom is in your midst.

The future Kingdom is spoken of in Revelation.

Allegorizing that kingdom is a common practice, but we do have this that some also allegorize into something that it clearly is not saying:

Matthew 16:27-28
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Those people, every one of them, died without seeing that fulfillment...unless, as I have stated above, one allegorizes the text in order to make it conform to personal whims and fancy...especially considering that there are no absolute rules for interpretation of allegory thrown over texts like a blanket that is clear and precisely stated that places it outside the realm of allegory.

Now, some may do a sharp intake of breath thinking that I just called Christ liar. Not so. The Lord has license to make changes to stated plans on the basis of realities that alter the course He ultimately chooses to take. In Genesis 2 the Lord gave to man vegetables, fruits and seed for his diet, then in Genesis 9 He changed that rule to everything that moved on the face of the earth as food, and then in Leviticus He changed it all once again for Israel by limiting their diet to certain animals while forbidding others.

i don't know what replacement theology is.
Sounds like a new fandangled idea.
I like and stick to what the church taught at the beginning.

Replacement theology manifests itself in many, many forms and can be seen rooted in many different doctrinal beliefs within most of Christendom. At its root, it is the belief that the "church" has replaced Israel with all the promises, blessings and covenant made with Abraham and with Israel. Up from that grounding are various nuances of various types and sizes in the falsehoods in doctrinal beliefs about the Church and Israel. In other words, the errors are exhaustively too numerous to list, but that's the tap root from which they all spring.

What do you believe the OTHER GOSPEL is?

Think along the lines of the Judaizers. James didn't at any time say that what the Judaizers taught to Paul's churches was wrong. All he said about them is that they were not sent out by any of the twelve. James didn't correct the Judaizers by telling them they were wrong about the requirement for circumcision. Silence speaks loud volumes to many things for the understanding within observant student of the Bible.

We know that the Jews in Jerusalem were ALL zealous for the Law, so the Judaizers were simply making the mistake that the Kingdom Gospel, which was completely comfortable with observance of the Mosaic Law, was one and the same as what Paul preached. It's intellectually dishonest to then say Peter preached the same Gospel as Paul, for had the twelve preached the same as Paul, then why would Paul have had such resistance against that gospel being preached to his churches populated mostly by Gentiles?

Paying close attention to the wording tells us the story:

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul therefore wasn't saying that the twelve and the Judaizers were preaching a false gospel, but only if they or any other entity, even an angel, preach any OTHER gospel (he didn't say false gospel, but any OTHER gospel) is preached UNTO YOU. they are to be accursed.

Everything in the NT applies to us today.

Indeed?

Matthew 8:1-4
1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

So, if everything in the NT applies to us today, as you stated, that would mean that healing would be a basis for continued animal sacrifices as gifts unto God. When the healing processes the Lord gave to our bodies, did you offer up an animal sacrifice when your body overcame the cold, or the cut in your skin healed up...et al?

I assume you know better, but this should motivate you to be more consistent with reality about saying ALL in relation to the NT:

Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Please tell me you didn't mean what you said about ALL the NT applying to us today. I can show a number of other examples, but perhaps modification of that statement is expedient at this time.

Which truths do you believe do not apply to us?
Which legalistic elements are you speaking about?

For one, the requirement for water baptism for the remission of sins, as preached by the twelve from Pentecost onward, isn't a requirement upon us today. Our sins are remitted on the basis of our salvation by grace through faith, which is coupled with nothing else for the receiving of it. The legalistic aspect of which I spoke is in the teaching of water baptism for the remission of sins, which nullifies grace, and thus is an avenue for boasting as I've heard many today bragging about.

Hope that gives context to what I was saying.

MM
 
That's cool.



Yes. Only one is valid for today since the fall of Israel.



Agreed, which is the one to come in the Millennium with the world ruled by Christ through Israel.



Hmm, perhaps Abraham and his descendants didn't understand that. Anyone who knows and has talked with my fellow Jews of the Judeo flavor knows that they today are still looking to the coming of Messiah as a powerful and influential leader, even though they missed Him by centuries, thus their acceptance of the man of sin as the Messiah until he demands personal worship.



Allegorizing that kingdom is a common practice, but we do have this that some also allegorize into something that it clearly is not saying:

Matthew 16:27-28
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.
28 Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

Those people, every one of them, died without seeing that fulfillment...unless, as I have stated above, one allegorizes the text in order to make it conform to personal whims and fancy...especially considering that there are no absolute rules for interpretation of allegory thrown over texts like a blanket that is clear and precisely stated that places it outside the realm of allegory.

Now, some may do a sharp intake of breath thinking that I just called Christ liar. Not so. The Lord has license to make changes to stated plans on the basis of realities that alter the course He ultimately chooses to take. In Genesis 2 the Lord gave to man vegetables, fruits and seed for his diet, then in Genesis 9 He changed that rule to everything that moved on the face of the earth as food, and then in Leviticus He changed it all once again for Israel by limiting their diet to certain animals while forbidding others.



Replacement theology manifests itself in many, many forms and can be seen rooted in many different doctrinal beliefs within most of Christendom. At its root, it is the belief that the "church" has replaced Israel with all the promises, blessings and covenant made with Abraham and with Israel. Up from that grounding are various nuances of various types and sizes in the falsehoods in doctrinal beliefs about the Church and Israel. In other words, the errors are exhaustively too numerous to list, but that's the tap root from which they all spring.



Think along the lines of the Judaizers. James didn't at any time say that what the Judaizers taught to Paul's churches was wrong. All he said about them is that they were not sent out by any of the twelve. James didn't correct the Judaizers by telling them they were wrong about the requirement for circumcision. Silence speaks loud volumes to many things for the understanding within observant student of the Bible.

We know that the Jews in Jerusalem were ALL zealous for the Law, so the Judaizers were simply making the mistake that the Kingdom Gospel, which was completely comfortable with observance of the Mosaic Law, was one and the same as what Paul preached. It's intellectually dishonest to then say Peter preached the same Gospel as Paul, for had the twelve preached the same as Paul, then why would Paul have had such resistance against that gospel being preached to his churches populated mostly by Gentiles?

Paying close attention to the wording tells us the story:

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul therefore wasn't saying that the twelve and the Judaizers were preaching a false gospel, but only if they or any other entity, even an angel, preach any OTHER gospel (he didn't say false gospel, but any OTHER gospel) is preached UNTO YOU. they are to be accursed.



Indeed?

Matthew 8:1-4
1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him.
2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean.
3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed.
4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

So, if everything in the NT applies to us today, as you stated, that would mean that healing would be a basis for continued animal sacrifices as gifts unto God. When the healing processes the Lord gave to our bodies, did you offer up an animal sacrifice when your body overcame the cold, or the cut in your skin healed up...et al?

I assume you know better, but this should motivate you to be more consistent with reality about saying ALL in relation to the NT:

Mark 16:17-18
17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Please tell me you didn't mean what you said about ALL the NT applying to us today. I can show a number of other examples, but perhaps modification of that statement is expedient at this time.



For one, the requirement for water baptism for the remission of sins, as preached by the twelve from Pentecost onward, isn't a requirement upon us today. Our sins are remitted on the basis of our salvation by grace through faith, which is coupled with nothing else for the receiving of it. The legalistic aspect of which I spoke is in the teaching of water baptism for the remission of sins, which nullifies grace, and thus is an avenue for boasting as I've heard many today bragging about.

Hope that gives context to what I was saying.

MM
Love you brother. What about communion for the Church/bride? Do we need to follow this for salvation?

Israel is the same. It is ALWAYS faith alone in Christ alone for salvation.......There are ALWAYS ways to follow for sanctification.

Water baptism was NEVER required for salvation........Israel/Jews KNEW the teaching /significance of Water dipping. They knew full well that dunking in water would not save them.

Isr
 
I agree with everything you've said except one point:

You stated that faith has always come BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

Has God ever revealed Himself any other way?

I like

Romans 1:20-21
20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse.
21 For even though they knew God, they did not [a]honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.



God has revealed Himself through nature.
God has revealed things about Himself through creation and conscience. That is, all mankind can know of the existence of God through the things that were created and because God has placed eternity in our hearts. This not the same as God coming to an individual and revealing Himself. For example, God came and spoke directly to Noah and Abraham. We find other examples of this, but God didn't come to everyone this way.

I didn't say faith comes by hearing the word of God. If this were so, everyone God spoke to would be saved, as well as anyone who read or heard the Bible. I said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In other words, the word of God produces hearing, then hearing yields faith. Not everyone has ears to hear.
 
You may not accept that baptism was done with water....
but Jesus' knew He meant water.
Baptizing is done with water.
All denominations use water.

That may be so according to you. Problem is, Jesus doesn't use water. I'll stick with Christ's baptism thanks, not the denominations. :)


1 Peter 3:20-21
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [p]water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [q]for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


What removes physical dirt?
Water.
Peter compares the removal of physical dirt to receiving a good concsience from God.
The ark went through Water.

Peter is speaking about WATER.

He is saying not water but the resurrection of Christ is what saves us.

Romans 8:1-2
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

We have a good conscience before God because of what Christ has done on our behalf and that in turn is imparted by means of the Spirit. We live because Christ lives iow. just as Peter says "a good conscience through the resurrection of Christ".

Acts 10:47
47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?


Water was always used to baptized.
The very word means to be immersed in WATER.

Yet turn to the next chapter and what do we find Peter saying? I'm going to let you work that out because it has been said enough times already in this thread. People need to stop ignoring what was going on.

Also, it does not mean immersed "in water". It means to submerge, immerse or dip. To be "baptized in" means to be wholly identified with. Israel was baptized into Moses. We are baptized into Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
Galatians 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.


Silly statement. No reply.

Oxymoron, you replied and didn't reply? Your opinion is noted. :)

This has nothing to do with baptism or the fact that baptism is accomplished with water.

How do you work out that regeneration has nothing to do with baptism? How does one become in Christ and saved apart from the baptism of the Spirit today?

Do you understand what happens when we are baptized with the Spirit? While regeneration was needed from Adam's fall onwards in order to relate to the Lord God, what has been given to the Church through the baptism of the Spirit is far more than simply being made spiritually alive. Cornelius, as an example, was already regenerated, as evidenced by his relationship with God, but he was not in Christ hence, his need to be baptized with the Spirit. Christ's baptism with the Spirit is exclusive to the Church age. Wasn't seen before that, only an anointing by God was given in the OT.

Acts 10:22
The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.”

Hmmm. I see some on this thread believe Peter was a dumb man.
Have you studied any church history?
Could you tell us what position Peter took in Rome?
And I don't mean Pope.

No, you're the one calling him dumb. I see him as a very normal bloke who got things wrong once in awhile. Have you never got it wrong or are you so perfect as to never fail? If you have got things wrong on occasion, does that mean you're dumb?

Actually I find Peter to be the most encouraging of all the Apostles. I showed you in scripture the places he messed up. Deny it if you will but it is there in black and white.

We are saved the moment we come to believe in Jesus.

Yes we are.

But we must do what Jesus commanded.

Or else what?

Matthew 28:19
19 [a]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Hmmm, I can't see any water there, only the fullness of God. When a church overemphasises one person of the Trinity at the expense of the other two, that church is in danger of becoming lopsided. When it's all about the Father, they become authoritarian. All about Jesus, they become too tolerant of sin. When it's all about the Spirit, they become energetic and loud and miss the finer things. There is good reason Jesus told His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You know about the New Covenant?
What is the SIGN of the New Covenant?

Also, you make it seem as though we could CHOOSE to follow a command given by Jesus.
Do you believe we are to love our neighborJ?
This was also a command of Jesus.

Do we get to pick and choose which commandments we follow??

Yes, the sign is baptism, Christ's baptism.

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


I don't follow your commands. You are the one insisting baptism must be with water when Christ said He would baptize with the Spirit and with fire.

I'll take His baptism over yours any day of the week. :D

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;


I don't see any point continuing. As far as I am concerned, you have been "baptized" into tradition and are not willing to reconsider what is actually written.

You have a good one. :LOL:

grace and peace.
 
That may be so according to you. Problem is, Jesus doesn't use water. I'll stick with Christ's baptism thanks, not the denominations. :)




He is saying not water but the resurrection of Christ is what saves us.

Romans 8:1-2
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

We have a good conscience before God because of what Christ has done on our behalf and that in turn is imparted by means of the Spirit. We live because Christ lives iow. just as Peter says "a good conscience through the resurrection of Christ".



Yet turn to the next chapter and what do we find Peter saying? I'm going to let you work that out because it has been said enough times already in this thread. People need to stop ignoring what was going on.

Also, it does not mean immersed "in water". It means to submerge, immerse or dip. To be "baptized in" means to be wholly identified with. Israel was baptized into Moses. We are baptized into Christ.

1 Corinthians 10:2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
Galatians 3:27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.




Oxymoron, you replied and didn't reply? Your opinion is noted. :)



How do you work out that regeneration has nothing to do with baptism? How does one become in Christ and saved apart from the baptism of the Spirit today?

Do you understand what happens when we are baptized with the Spirit? While regeneration was needed from Adam's fall onwards in order to relate to the Lord God, what has been given to the Church through the baptism of the Spirit is far more than simply being made spiritually alive. Cornelius, as an example, was already regenerated, as evidenced by his relationship with God, but he was not in Christ hence, his need to be baptized with the Spirit. Christ's baptism with the Spirit is exclusive to the Church age. Wasn't seen before that, only an anointing by God was given in the OT.

Acts 10:22
The men replied, “We have come from Cornelius the centurion. He is a righteous and God-fearing man, who is respected by all the Jewish people. A holy angel told him to ask you to come to his house so that he could hear what you have to say.”



No, you're the one calling him dumb. I see him as a very normal bloke who got things wrong once in awhile. Have you never got it wrong or are you so perfect as to never fail? If you have got things wrong on occasion, does that mean you're dumb?

Actually I find Peter to be the most encouraging of all the Apostles. I showed you in scripture the places he messed up. Deny it if you will but it is there in black and white.



Yes we are.



Or else what?



Hmmm, I can't see any water there, only the fullness of God. When a church overemphasises one person of the Trinity at the expense of the other two, that church is in danger of becoming lopsided. When it's all about the Father, they become authoritarian. All about Jesus, they become too tolerant of sin. When it's all about the Spirit, they become energetic and loud and miss the finer things. There is good reason Jesus told His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.



Yes, the sign is baptism, Christ's baptism.

Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.


I don't follow your commands. You are the one insisting baptism must be with water when Christ said He would baptize with the Spirit and with fire.

I'll take His baptism over yours any day of the week. :D

Ephesians 4:5
one Lord, one faith, one baptism;


I don't see any point continuing. As far as I am concerned, you have been "baptized" into tradition and are not willing to reconsider what is actually written.

You have a good one. :LOL:

grace and peace.
You must be a girl.

BTW,,,I'm not baptizing anyone.

Don't bother to post to me because I will not be responding to you.
 
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Good point.

But when a teacher is speaking to a class, he does not repeat everything every time.
The absence of proof is not the proof of absence.

Paul does speak to baptism:

Acts 22:16
16 And now what are you waiting for? Get up, be baptized and wash your sins away, calling on his name.’


Note that he equates WASHING with baptism. To wash one needs water. Some on here do not seem to equate the two, saying that baptism is purely spiritual.

Well, no. When talking about a mere class of some sort, on a topic easily summarized with unimportant elements left out, that's one thing, but we're not talking about something as mundane given the significance of the eternal futures of countless people being addressed. It's not just that simple to say that it's unimportant for Paul to write precisely every element in a letter he knows would be for posterity, lasting generations beyond his life, on a topic of greater importance than just about any other subject that touches upon eternity itself.

No, that simply fails the test of voracity since he clearly stated, dare we read those passages again, that what he stated is THE means unto salvation. Period.

Let's get more context for the verse you quoted above. Notice that Paul is addressing Jews, not Gentiles:

Acts 22:12-16
12 And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, having a good report of all the Jews which dwelt there,
13 Came unto me, and stood, and said unto me, Brother Saul, receive thy sight. And the same hour I looked up upon him.
14 And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
15 For thou shalt be his witness unto all men of what thou hast seen and heard.
16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

So, Messianic Jews who were still zealous for the Law instructed Paul to go and be water baptized, wash and call upon the name of Christ Jesus. This is unremarkable because of this not at all being anything at all Paul ever repeated as instruction to Gentiles or even other Jews anywhere in his epistles. I was a Messianic Jew who was also instructed in similar manner, and that was not inspired by the Lord in this day. So, no. This fails the acid test for what is beholden to us today given the utter silence from Paul issuing such an instruction to Gentiles and to Jews.

Remember the accusation against Paul in Jerusalem among the twelve who were still there, never yet having gone out into all the world?

Continuing in Acts 21:

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

Notice that Paul did not utter one denial of that charge...because it was true. So, again, Paul's gospel was not that of the twelve nor the Kingdom Gospel.

To be continued:

MM
 
God has revealed things about Himself through creation and conscience. That is, all mankind can know of the existence of God through the things that were created and because God has placed eternity in our hearts. This not the same as God coming to an individual and revealing Himself. For example, God came and spoke directly to Noah and Abraham. We find other examples of this, but God didn't come to everyone this way.

I didn't say faith comes by hearing the word of God. If this were so, everyone God spoke to would be saved, as well as anyone who read or heard the Bible. I said faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. In other words, the word of God produces hearing, then hearing yields faith. Not everyone has ears to hear.
Agreed 100%

But the verse does say FAITH COMES BY HEARING THE WORD OF GOD.

What do you think it says??
'night
 
1 Corinthians 6:11
11 And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Are you implying that the term "washed" means water baptism? How do you differentiate as to what that washing is, whether it be the washing of Holy Spirit through the spiritual baptism or not?

What we CAN say that Paul stated is this:

Ephesians 4:4-5
4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Some force meaning into that context by trying to insert water baptism by eisegetically ramming it into where it clearly is not stated nor implied. What we can know is this:

1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether [we be] bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

So, where we do see here Paul addressing spiritual baptism, we find not one instruction from him for water baptism as an element of salvation.

Galatians 3:26-27
26 For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
Note that Paul is speaking about persons that are sons of God through faith in Jesus...
But he also notes that they were baptized into Christ.

Baptize means to dip into water.
Thus all the refernces to water, and washing.
If this is not understood, it will cause confusion.

Well, no. You can see in the reference above that I quoted from i Cor. 12:13 that baptism into Christ is a spiritual baptism, not one of water. You're not alone in this false assumption. You have many standing with you on this, but as for me, I will not be accursed by preaching another gospel that is not in accordance with Paul's Gospel. That's just a choice that I've made.

I'm still wanting to see even one verse where Paul instructed Gentiles that they had to be water baptized for salvation.

MM
 
It's the truth.

@Cameron143 is reformed/calvie/tulip. He is the special elect and we are skubala.

I am sorry for being honest. I should try to sugar coat more. And "ACT" like it is all fine.
Kroogz
I have to leave...it's really late here.

I do want to say that when the topic comes up,,,i'll be happy to discuss the reformed faith with the other member.
I agree that it is not the gospel - to say the least.

Also, being uncharitable never gets us anywhere.
I've met some reformed persons that are so unpleasant that it becomes impossible to discuss with them.
This might be because they're so battered by every other denomination.

Anyway, for now I'm having a nice convo with him.
'night
 
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It's the truth.

@Cameron143 is reformed/calvie/tulip. He is the special elect and we are skubala.

I am sorry for being honest. I should try to sugar coat more. And "ACT" like it is all fine.
You don't have to sugar coat it, but you should actually stop misrepresenting others.
 
I suggest you do interlinear study on that verse. Or just look at other versions where it uses the word shall. Jesus is not simply suggesting that we not perish.


What? It looks like you just took the verse and rearranged it to make it mean what you wanted it to mean.

The problem with other versions, some man or men take the KJV and alter it to suit their needs or wants.

So when they alter GODS word who is the real author?

I rely on the spirit to give me insite.

That verse is clear, if your baptized your saved, if not, your not!

Was nice taking with you.