Loss of salvation???

Just_A__Follower said:

Yep I’ve read all those scriptures so I’ll rephrase my question. As you interpret scripture am I saved since I’ve never spoken in tongues? Having grown up around around many with these beliefs and currently being married to one who was raised with these beliefs these beliefs, I’ve wondered are the ones that pretend to speak in tongues because of the peer pressure saved also?

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I understand the question, but I don't interpret scripture I let JESUS do the talking ONLY.

If JESUS say you have to be born of water and of spirit to enter, you be the judge.

The promis is for ALL, keep this in mind JESUS told HIS discple not to go out without it!

Acts 1,
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

But leaves a question, who is the one juding those who are speaking in tongones real or not?

Since men don't have a clue what they are saying,

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

You and I may be able to fool one and the other, but JESUS knows that is why we need to just concentrate on ourselves.

Genez said:

Having driven his car with a stick for years?
The man who just bought a new automobile with an automatic transmission.
Just keeps going for the clutch with his left foot when taking off, while it is no longer there!

In a similar manner... Water baptizing had become a way of life for the apostles.
It had become ingrained in their psyche.

For there came a time when the apostles had been busy water baptizing more people than John the Baptist had been doing!

Note the following passage.

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4:1-2​

That is why Jesus later after his resurrection had to tell them it was no longer to be water baptism!

On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: ​

“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have ​

heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5​

Peter forgot what Jesus told him in Acts 1:5 quickly, due to all the excitement and distractions that were breaking loose since Pentecost! It would take some time before Peter stabilized and was able to recall
the words of Jesus.

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yes sir.
John baptized with water but Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit and fire, just as John declared.

The disciples waiting for the Holy Spirit to desend on them were already water baptized.
In the Old Covenants times the Holy Spirit was present but did not indwell persons.

The diference between the OCs and the New Covenant is precisely this...
Now, in the NC times, believers weil receive the Holy Spirit,,,internally and not externally.

Could you state what is the SIGN of the New Covenant?

In the Abrahamic Covenant it was circumcision.

Then?
After Peter having commanded many water baptisms, it finally dawned on Peter that it was no longer to be as it had been before the Church age began!

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“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, ​

but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift he ​

gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in ​

God’s way?” Acts 11:15-17​

Can you see what was taking place?
It was being a rapid transition into a new way of doing things.

Many today keep repeating the same mistake Peter had been making concerning water baptism!


grace and peace ...........

.......

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Are you the member the keeps stating that Peter was dumb?

The following was said by Peter:

Acts 10:47-48
44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who were listening to the [ag]message.
45 All the [ah]circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered,
47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?”
48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to stay on for a few days.


Please note:
1. The Holy Spirit fell upon those that were present.

2. Peter states that those present cannot be refused the WATER for baptism.

3. Peter ordered them to be baptized IN WATER----they already had received the Holy Spirit.


Just as is taught in the Christian faith:

First one believes in Jesus for salvation.
Then he is baptised.

Why be baptized?:

To be ready and able to witness to others.
Be able to obey God.

For power received from God.

Peter also believed it was to wash away sins.


1 Peter 3:20-21
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [p]water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [q]for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


Peter again speaks of WATER and makes the connection between the waters of Noah when persons were brought safely through the water....
and water --- not to remove physical dirt....
but to appeal to God for a good conscience provided by Jesus' sacrifice.

Genez said:

What flowed from Jesus' side was actually blood clots and serum.
It happens to blood when it is drawn and exposed to air.

......

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That's always nice to know.

I like the spiritual explanation better.

My blood and yours is irrelevant...
Jesus' meant something beyond the physical.

Just_A__Follower said:

Again I have access to every version of scripture. I’m more curious about your interpretation and belief. If one’s sins are only washed away through baptism and that person sins again after baptism, would he/she have to be rebaptized?

Also calling the Bible a rule book is very sad. The Bible is a love letter from God to His children. It’s not a set of rules on how to play the game of baseball. There is no love in any rule book I’ve ever read I’ve never read the rules of monopoly and thought that the little guy with the hat loves me.

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I thought 1 John would answer your question.

After we have been reborn we for sure will sin.

It could be deliberate or just a nasty thought, when we relized we did all we need to do is repent and coffess those sins to JESUS and HE will forgive us.

I see HIS words bring rules for how we are suppose to get reborn and live after the fact.

The first set of rules was the 10 commanments.

But we can different on our view with that it's not a Heaven or Hell sitution.

sawdust said:

No it's not, but your interpretation that He had to to mean water is. He said to baptize in the name, not in water. The name of God represents His character.

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You may not accept that baptism was done with water....
but Jesus' knew He meant water.
Baptizing is done with water.
All denominations use water.

I just posted this to another member:

1 Peter 3:20-21
20 who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the [p]water.
21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you—not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God [q]for a good conscience—through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

What removes physical dirt?
Water.
Peter compares the removal of physical dirt to receiving a good concsience from God.
The ark went through Water.

Peter is speaking about WATER.


This can also be seen in:


Acts 10:47
47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?



Water was always used to baptized.
The very word means to be immersed in WATER.

Yes I do. However, the fact that anyone from Adam's fall onwards had to be born from above (made spiritually alive) in order to comprehend spiritual matters, definitely rules out water as far as I am concerned.

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1 Corinthians 2:14 states that we learn the things of God from spritual appraisal.

This has nothing to do with baptism or the fact that baptism is accomplished with water.

But we didn't die. It is into Christ's death we are baptized, not our death. Our death would never see us raised from the dead.

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Silly statement.
No reply.

It wasn't about baptism. It was about Peter getting things wrong at times.

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If that's what you think. I find him to be quite normal. You think he never got a thing wrong after Pentecost? I imagine Peter would have a chuckle at that. [/QUOTE]
Hmmm. I see some on this thread believe Peter was a dumb man.
Have you studied any church history?
Could you tell us what position Peter took in Rome?
And I don't mean Pope.

I know. We must be baptized with the Spirit. Do you honestly believe that it is the baptism with water that saves you or the baptism with the Spirit that saves you?



I spelt it out in the post. The character of God is revealed in the fruit of the Spirit. We are baptized into Christ who is God and we become partakers of the Divine nature.

2 Peter 1:4
by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

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We are saved the moment we come to believe in Jesus.
But we must do what Jesus commanded.

Matthew 28:19
19 [a]Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

You asked me how can we baptized in the Spirit and I showed you it is something the Lord Jesus does. The baptism does more than indwell a person. When we are baptized we are born anew, indwelt, filled, sealed and gifted.

Yeah, baptized with the Spirit.

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I'm not arguing we don't need to be baptized. I'm saying the only baptism for the Church is the one that Christ does with the Spirit.

If people want to be baptized in water as well, I say go ahead. It won't change anything though. The changed life only comes about by the Spirit and the word. It is a new covenant with a new way of living. Water will not do what is needed.[/QUOTE]
You know about the New Covenant?
What is the SIGN of the New Covenant?

Also, you make it seem as though we could CHOOSE to follow a command given by Jesus.
Do you believe we are to love our neighborJ?
This was also a command of Jesus.

Do we get to pick and choose which commandments we follow??

Genez said:

Baptism into a name does not have to mean water.
Biblically, baptism can mean being placed in identification with someone, such as Jesus.
And, the term "name" could be used to represent the actual person.

Here is an example....

They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea." 1 Corinthians 10:2​

We need to start thinking Biblically to get the fuzzy cobwebs out of our minds.

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Agreed.

But water is necessary for baptism.

I have posted scripture.

Ouch said:

I understand the question, but I don't interpret scripture I let JESUS do the talking ONLY.

If JESUS say you have to be born of water and of spirit to enter, you be the judge.

The promis is for ALL, keep this in mind JESUS told HIS discple not to go out without it!

Acts 1,
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

But leaves a question, who is the one juding those who are speaking in tongones real or not?

Since men don't have a clue what they are saying,

1 Corinthians 14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.

You and I may be able to fool one and the other, but JESUS knows that is why we need to just concentrate on ourselves.

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You definitely interpret scripture. You are interpreting this post currently. Interpret means to make sense of words, actions, events, or symbols. Now whether you interpret it correctly and in context, that’s different.

Now where does Jesus say that it is a requirement to speak in tongues? And not mark 16:17 unless you also believe we have to play with snakes and drink battery acid to prove our salvation.

Ouch said:

Thank you, I have NO IDEA why my brain went to shall.

So here's the problem with thinking you are reborn the moment we believe.

At that moment, you have all of the sins you were born with and since sin sperates us from GOD no way could we enter Heaven.

Think on this, if we are reborn the min we believe but JESUS says we have to be born of water and of spirit to enter did HE lie?

I know you would never call JESUS that but it can't be both ways and GOD does not change.

WE have to obey HIS rule book the way it is, some people say we are saved by grace alone.

How many different oppinons are there?

GOD can't change HIS rule book to fit all of their thoughs!

GOD BLESS YOU.

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You like going by the bible.

So state somewhere that says we cannot be born again UNTIL we are baptized?
or
Somewhere that states that if we die unbaptized we are going to the hot place.

You're just making statements like many do without providing scripture.

Ouch said:

I thought 1 John would answer your question.

After we have been reborn we for sure will sin.

It could be deliberate or just a nasty thought, when we relized we did all we need to do is repent and coffess those sins to JESUS and HE will forgive us.

I see HIS words bring rules for how we are suppose to get reborn and live after the fact.

The first set of rules was the 10 commanments.

But we can different on our view with that it's not a Heaven or Hell sitution.

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Yes and I definitely agree with 1 John. But you said that we couldn’t be washed of our sins unless we were baptized. When we sin after our baptism what shall wash away those sins? Another baptism? By your logic when we sin again we would be separated from God again. Now that we again have sin, how do we get back to God?

Musicmaster said:

1 Corinthians 15:1-4
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

If water baptism were an element of our salvation today, then Paul would stand as having grievously sinned by omission by giving only a distant and imprecise set of criteria for our salvation. That would indeed nullify his apostleship by any reasonable standard set forth by the Bible.

Additionally, given that ALL scripture is inspired by God Himself, He too would stand guilty for misleading all who read the above verses. Leaving out ANY element necessary for salvation in a statement that clearly says that THIS is the pathway to the bestowment of salvation, that would lay at the very feet of God an accusation for omission of eternally critical information as to how one is saved. If one is going to assume Paul was merely summarizing, which is a denial of inspiration, what would be the purpose for leaving out such a vitally important element if it were indeed still valid as a required act, work, to obtain salvation from the Lord?

My experience with this is most avoid answering this directly and, instead, deflect and divert over into some other argumentation thinking they will win the day by way of red herring tactics, but I'm hoping you're a cut above those others and will answer this with whatever you think is an answer to the specific question asked of these verses only for now.

Thanks.

MM

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MM
I think the reason most avoid this is because
1. It's not a salvation issue
2. It's a brand new teaching and a bit off the rails...to say the least.

However, I will read it through after dinner and reply.
You already know that we all believe there is only one gospel.
Jesus and Paul taught exactly the same.
NT Wright wrote a book about this because some believe that Paul taught differently than Jesus..
which is also not true.

Later...
BTW,, I DID reply to this on the other forum.
you're not on there much and you use a different name.
Same avatar.
Same doctrine.

Just_A__Follower said:

So you never sin after being baptized? If so would have to be re-baptized? Makes no since.

Rule Book

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Is @Ouch stating that he doesn't sin after baptism??
I didn't catch that.

Hope he replies.

Toknow said:

Is @Ouch stating that he doesn't sin after baptism??
I didn't catch that.

Hope he replies.

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No. i was just trying to see if I was talking to someone who believed in the perfection lie. It seems we agree on 1 John and still having sin. I’ve met a few on here already in my short time that believe they do not sin at all. They are a blast to have discussions with. Like talking to a wall.

Just_A__Follower said:

You definitely interpret scripture. You are interpreting this post currently. Interpret means to make sense of words, actions, events, or symbols. Now whether you interpret it correctly and in context, that’s different.

Now where does Jesus say that it is a requirement to speak in tongues? And not mark 16:17 unless you also believe we have to play with snakes and drink battery acid to prove our salvation.

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Show me one that I interpreted.

I just share them, I will say "your sins get remitted when you get baptized in JESUS name" but I just repeting HIS word. Do you call that interperting?

On this sight I am just sharing HIS word, I sure do have some thoughts about peoples comments and how to reply but when I'm confused I ask them so I'm not assuming or intrepeting.

I think Mark 16:17 is the only place how many times does HE have to say it?? , you don't believe HIM?

BUT, BUT was JESUS speaking thought Peter in Acts 2:38-39???

How would Peter know the message he preached was for ALL???

Toknow said:

You like going by the bible.

So state somewhere that says we cannot be born again UNTIL we are baptized?
or
Somewhere that states that if we die unbaptized we are going to the hot place.

You're just making statements like many do without providing scripture.

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All of these veses fit together.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16-17
King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:38-41
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Just_A__Follower said:

Yes and I definitely agree with 1 John. But you said that we couldn’t be washed of our sins unless we were baptized. When we sin after our baptism what shall wash away those sins? Another baptism? By your logic when we sin again we would be separated from God again. Now that we again have sin, how do we get back to God?

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If you agree with 1 John why can't you see?

HIS word how our sins are washed away!

Acts 2,
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

After we have been REBORN!!!

1 John 1:8-10
King James Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We do not need to be rebaptized all we need to do is repent and confess those sins to JESUS.

Toknow said:

Is @Ouch stating that he doesn't sin after baptism??
I didn't catch that.

Hope he replies.

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LOL sure do!!

Ouch said:

Show me one that I interpreted.

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We interpret everything in our reality or else we would not understand anything. We interpret the word “hot” to mean it will hurt if you touch it. If we read scripture without interpretation then we would just merely be looking at random black line on paper. You obviously interpreted my last post since you replied to it. The fact that you say you don’t interpret shows that you didn’t interpret it correctly. “Assume” has a completely different meaning.

Don’t stop at mark 16:17. Lets continue to 18.
“they will pick up serpents with their hands; and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not hurt them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will recover.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16‬:‭18‬ ‭

The Holy Spirit inside the person is the root of such signs or power. That power is not ours to use as we choose. Now would forcing one of these signs ourselves not be testing God? Let’s remember what Jesus said to the evil one when he told Him to jump off the temple. Jesus is not saying that we must possess these to be saved. He stated that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved in 16. He also says whoever does not believe will be condemned. What he doesn’t say in 16 is that whoever is not baptized will be condemned.

and I believe the Holy Spirit was speaking thru Peter but I’m guessing we have different views on Who’s Who. I’m not arguing that we shouldn’t be baptized. I will argue however that you can be saved without being baptized. As you said you don’t believe in infant baptism. I don’t either. Shall we say that children are saved because they aren’t baptized yet? I believe they are saved without their baptism.

Ouch said:

If you agree with 1 John why can't you see?

HIS word how our sins are washed away!

Acts 2,
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

After we have been REBORN!!!

1 John 1:8-10
King James Version
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

We do not need to be rebaptized all we need to do is repent and confess those sins to JESUS.

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I know what I believe washes away my sins. I’m just trying to understand how you see it. I think I see what you’re saying. Correct me if I’m wrong. You’re saying that water is needed to wash away the initial sins but water is not needed to wash away the sins after we are reborn. Is that correct?

Ouch said:

All of these veses fit together.

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16-17
King James Version
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Acts 2:38-41
King James Version
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

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Right.
But I'm not playing the verse game.

The above rightly state that we are to be baptrized.
The above also state that baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.

What they do NOT state is that if we do not get baptized immediately after believing, and we die, we will go to hell.

Lydia was a saved person.
Cornelius was a saved person.

Were they baptized?

Acts 16:14-15
14One woman, Lydia, was from Thyatira and a dealer in expensive textiles, known to be a God-fearing woman. As she listened with intensity to what was being said, the Master gave her a trusting heart—and she believed!
15 After she was baptized, along with everyone in her household,

Ouch said:

LOL sure do!!

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Anyone that believes he doesn't sin...
doesn't know God very well.
Agreed....