Loss of salvation???

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HeIsHere said:
Seems to be the norm now a days. :cautious:
The "worker bees" are out in full force, we used to have a smattering here and they see to be the majority now.
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I find it scary at times. Some people I know who have walked with the Lord 30+ years don't even really know the Gospel message properly.

I get we all can disagree on the more mature and "esoteric" (using the term loosely) passages of scripture but Gospel 101? Sad. :(
 
sawdust said:
I find it scary at times. Some people I know who have walked with the Lord 30+ years don't even really know the Gospel message properly.

I get we all can disagree on the more mature and "esoteric" (using the term loosely) passages of scripture but Gospel 101? Sad. :(
Click to expand...


I hear ya, too many false teachers let into the church over time and here we are.
And when I read the posts I am amazed (not in a good way) with how they argue against the Good News!!
It is all from pride, very disheartening.
 
sawdust said:
So? Are we just obeying people's subjective understanding now?
Click to expand...
What Jesus stated is not subjective...just making a point.
I'd like to assume (if I may) that you know that not all theologians agree on the meaning of John 3:5
Some believe the water is the word of God.
Some believe it's amniotic fluid.
Some believe it's baptismal water.

And so many verses and prefigurings.
As Noah was saved by water...
Moses crossed the water...and was saved by it...

I used to think the water was amniotic fluid.
Not so sure anymore.

Jesus's side was pierced.
Blood and water flowed.
Blood, for accepting His sacrifice.
Water for baptism, as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19


So you say, but not theory. Peter forgot stuff he should have known and didn't always get things right.

Acts 11:16
Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water, but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’

Galatians 2:11
Now when Peter had come to Antioch, I withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed;
Click to expand...


Here's what Colossians 2:12 states:

12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead


We are buried in baptism. We go under the water and die and come back up alive.

Romans 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.



As to YOUR verse,,,Galatians 2:11 I see nothing there about baptism.


11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he [i]stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from [j]James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing [k]the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not [l]straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?


The above has nothing to do with baptism.

You make Peter sound like an idiot.
Peter was the Bishop of Rome and the other 4 Bishops of that area looked up to him and referred to him when there was a question regarding church doctrine.



Huh? It is a work of God, who says you have to do anything except believe in Christ.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
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Faith is a gift from God.
This does not disqualify His requirement that we be baptized.

Mark 16:16
6 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


He who does not believe is condemned.
He who believes must also be baptized.



According to you. I see Jesus commanding baptism in the Name of the Father, Son and Spirit, not in water. How can one be submerged in the character of God? By being baptized with the Spirit for there is the fruit (characteristics) of God. Gal.5:22
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What does Galatians 5:22 have to do with this?

There was not a lot of water at times in Israel.
Do you know HOW some were baptized because of this problem?




If you think water is powerful enough to deal with your sin and transform you inwardly, go for it. No skin off my nose mate. :)
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I don't think anything.
I like to do what Jesus commanded.


Honestly again, Huh? How can you not know the answer?

John 1:33
I did not know Him, but He who sent me to baptize with water said to me, ‘Upon whom you see the Spirit descending, and remaining on Him, this is He who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.’
Click to expand...
Because I ask does not imply that the reply is not known.

Jesus was Himself baptized...in water.

You're saying Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
John stated that the one that comes after him will baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

In the OT the Holy Spirit did not INDWELL persons.
In the NT, He did.
Jesus said He would send the helper.
Jesus said we must be IN HIM and HE IN US.

BUT
jesus still commanded that we be baptized.

Exterior washing signified interior purification.

In the Abrahamic Covenant the sign was circumcision.
In the New Covenant the sign is baptism.
 
Toknow said:
I basically agree with your baptism doctrine but I just think you take it too far.
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Take it too far indeed. You basically agree with his baptism doctrine but here is where you don't agree with him.

Ouch believes that we MUST be water baptized "in Jesus name" ONLY or else we won't be saved and baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19) is an invalid formula according to Ouch, which is no surprise because he rejects the Trinity and holds to Oneness theology (modalism).

Ouch also believes that we MUST be filled with the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues or else we won't be saved.
 
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mailmandan said:
Take it too far indeed. You basically agree with his baptism doctrine but here is where you don't agree with him.

Ouch believes that we MUST be water baptized "in Jesus name" ONLY or else we won't be saved and baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19) is an invalid formula according to Ouch, which is no surprise because he rejects the Trinity and holds to Oneness theology (modalism).

Ouch also believes that we MUST be filled with the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues or else we won't be saved.
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Pretty much what I figured.
I addressed the JESUS NAME ONLY aspect.
I addressed dying without being baptized. It was rejected.
I spoke to the FORMULA and the difference beteen John and Jesus' baptism.
The Trinity is a big problem these days....
And speaking in tongues...
I SPEAK IN TONGUES!!
LOL

(Just kidding for those that don't know me.)

'night
 
Toknow said:
Jesus's side was pierced.
Blood and water flowed.
Blood, for accepting His sacrifice.
Water for baptism, as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19
Click to expand...
Hi Toknow,

Could it be that we are told water mixed with blood flowed from Jesus' side not to give a symbolic formula for salvation, but to offer evidence that He did in fact die (to refute the "swoon" theory)?

Much love!
 
markss said:
Hi Toknow,

Could it be that we are told water mixed with blood flowed from Jesus' side not to give a symbolic formula for salvation, but to offer evidence that He did in fact die (to refute the "swoon" theory)?

Much love!
Click to expand...
Yes. It's you.
Nice to see you here.

I didn't mean it as a symbolic formula.
I just meant to say that we are saved by blood and water.

I don't claim to understand baptism 100%....
but if Jesus said to do it...then we better do it.
 
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mailmandan said:
Take it too far indeed. You basically agree with his baptism doctrine but here is where you don't agree with him.

Ouch believes that we MUST be water baptized "in Jesus name" ONLY or else we won't be saved and baptism in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit (as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19) is an invalid formula according to Ouch, which is no surprise because he rejects the Trinity and holds to Oneness theology (modalism).

Ouch also believes that we MUST be filled with the Holy Spirit evidenced by speaking in tongues or else we won't be saved.
Click to expand...
How does one get any of that from scripture?
 
Toknow said:
This might even work as a theory...
except that the Apostles passed on what they learned...even when they were not so slow anymore...
and they taugth that WATER is to be usesd for baptizing.
Click to expand...

Having driven his car with a stick for years?
The man who just bought a new automobile with an automatic transmission.
Just keeps going for the clutch with his left foot when taking off, while it is no longer there!

In a similar manner... Water baptizing had become a way of life for the apostles.
It had become ingrained in their psyche.

For there came a time when the apostles had been busy water baptizing more people than John the Baptist had been doing!

Note the following passage.

Now Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard that he was gaining and baptizing more disciples than John— although in fact it was not Jesus who baptized, but his disciples." John 4:1-2​

That is why Jesus later after his resurrection had to tell them it was no longer to be water baptism!


On one occasion, while he was eating with them, he gave them this command: ​
“Do not leave Jerusalem, but wait for the gift my Father promised, which you have ​
heard me speak about. For John baptized with water, but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.” Acts 1:4-5​

Peter forgot what Jesus told him in Acts 1:5 quickly, due to all the excitement and distractions that were breaking loose since Pentecost! It would take some time before Peter stabilized and was able to recall
the words of Jesus.

Then?
After Peter having commanded many water baptisms, it finally dawned on Peter that it was no longer to be as it had been before the Church age began!


“As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. Then I remembered what the Lord had said: ‘John baptized with water, ​
but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ So if God gave them the same gift he ​
gave us who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could stand in ​
God’s way?” Acts 11:15-17​


Can you see what was taking place?
It was being a rapid transition into a new way of doing things.

Many today keep repeating the same mistake Peter had been making concerning water baptism!


grace and peace ...........

.......
 
Toknow said:
What Jesus stated is not subjective...just making a point.
I'd like to assume (if I may) that you know that not all theologians agree on the meaning of John 3:5
Some believe the water is the word of God.
Some believe it's amniotic fluid.
Some believe it's baptismal water.

And so many verses and prefigurings.
As Noah was saved by water...
Moses crossed the water...and was saved by it...

I used to think the water was amniotic fluid.
Not so sure anymore.

Jesus's side was pierced.
Blood and water flowed.
Blood, for accepting His sacrifice.
Water for baptism, as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19




Here's what Colossians 2:12 states:

12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead


We are buried in baptism. We go under the water and die and come back up alive.

Romans 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.



As to YOUR verse,,,Galatians 2:11 I see nothing there about baptism.


11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he [i]stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from [j]James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing [k]the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not [l]straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?


The above has nothing to do with baptism.

You make Peter sound like an idiot.
Peter was the Bishop of Rome and the other 4 Bishops of that area looked up to him and referred to him when there was a question regarding church doctrine.





Faith is a gift from God.
This does not disqualify His requirement that we be baptized.

Mark 16:16
6 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


He who does not believe is condemned.
He who believes must also be baptized.




What does Galatians 5:22 have to do with this?

There was not a lot of water at times in Israel.
Do you know HOW some were baptized because of this problem?






I don't think anything.
I like to do what Jesus commanded.



Because I ask does not imply that the reply is not known.

Jesus was Himself baptized...in water.

You're saying Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
John stated that the one that comes after him will baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

In the OT the Holy Spirit did not INDWELL persons.
In the NT, He did.
Jesus said He would send the helper.
Jesus said we must be IN HIM and HE IN US.

BUT
jesus still commanded that we be baptized.

Exterior washing signified interior purification.

In the Abrahamic Covenant the sign was circumcision.
In the New Covenant the sign is baptism.
Click to expand...

What flowed from Jesus' side was actually blood clots and serum.
It happens to blood when it is drawn and exposed to air.

......
 
Toknow said:
What Jesus stated is not subjective...just making a point.
Click to expand...

No it's not, but your interpretation that He had to to mean water is. He said to baptize in the name, not in water. The name of God represents His character.

Toknow said:
I'd like to assume (if I may) that you know that not all theologians agree on the meaning of John 3:5
Click to expand...

Yes I do. However, the fact that anyone from Adam's fall onwards had to be born from above (made spiritually alive) in order to comprehend spiritual matters, definitely rules out water as far as I am concerned.
Toknow said:
We are buried in baptism. We go under the water and die and come back up alive.
Click to expand...

But we didn't die. It is into Christ's death we are baptized, not our death. Our death would never see us raised from the dead.

Toknow said:
As to YOUR verse,,,Galatians 2:11 I see nothing there about baptism.
Click to expand...

It wasn't about baptism. It was about Peter getting things wrong at times.

Toknow said:
You make Peter sound like an idiot.
Click to expand...

If that's what you think. I find him to be quite normal. You think he never got a thing wrong after Pentecost? I imagine Peter would have a chuckle at that. :)

Toknow said:
Faith is a gift from God.
This does not disqualify His requirement that we be baptized.
Click to expand...

I know. We must be baptized with the Spirit. Do you honestly believe that it is the baptism with water that saves you or the baptism with the Spirit that saves you?

Toknow said:
What does Galatians 5:22 have to do with this?
Click to expand...

I spelt it out in the post. The character of God is revealed in the fruit of the Spirit. We are baptized into Christ who is God and we become partakers of the Divine nature.

2 Peter 1:4
by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Toknow said:
Because I ask does not imply that the reply is not known.

Jesus was Himself baptized...in water.

You're saying Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
John stated that the one that comes after him will baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

In the OT the Holy Spirit did not INDWELL persons.
In the NT, He did.
Jesus said He would send the helper.
Jesus said we must be IN HIM and HE IN US.

BUT
jesus still commanded that we be baptized.

Exterior washing signified interior purification.

In the Abrahamic Covenant the sign was circumcision.
In the New Covenant the sign is baptism.
Click to expand...

You asked me how can we baptized in the Spirit and I showed you it is something the Lord Jesus does. The baptism does more than indwell a person. When we are baptized we are born anew, indwelt, filled, sealed and gifted.

Yeah, baptized with the Spirit.

I'm not arguing we don't need to be baptized. I'm saying the only baptism for the Church is the one that Christ does with the Spirit.

If people want to be baptized in water as well, I say go ahead. It won't change anything though. The changed life only comes about by the Spirit and the word. It is a new covenant with a new way of living. Water will not do what is needed.
 
Toknow said:
What Jesus stated is not subjective...just making a point.
I'd like to assume (if I may) that you know that not all theologians agree on the meaning of John 3:5
Some believe the water is the word of God.
Some believe it's amniotic fluid.
Some believe it's baptismal water.

And so many verses and prefigurings.
As Noah was saved by water...
Moses crossed the water...and was saved by it...

I used to think the water was amniotic fluid.
Not so sure anymore.

Jesus's side was pierced.
Blood and water flowed.
Blood, for accepting His sacrifice.
Water for baptism, as Jesus commanded in Matthew 28:19




Here's what Colossians 2:12 states:

12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead


We are buried in baptism. We go under the water and die and come back up alive.

Romans 6:3-4
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.



As to YOUR verse,,,Galatians 2:11 I see nothing there about baptism.


11 But when Cephas came to Antioch, I opposed him to his face, because he [i]stood condemned. 12 For prior to the coming of certain men from [j]James, he used to eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he began to withdraw and hold himself aloof, fearing [k]the party of the circumcision. 13 The rest of the Jews joined him in hypocrisy, with the result that even Barnabas was carried away by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not [l]straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Cephas in the presence of all, “If you, being a Jew, live like the Gentiles and not like the Jews, how is it that you compel the Gentiles to live like Jews?


The above has nothing to do with baptism.

You make Peter sound like an idiot.
Peter was the Bishop of Rome and the other 4 Bishops of that area looked up to him and referred to him when there was a question regarding church doctrine.





Faith is a gift from God.
This does not disqualify His requirement that we be baptized.

Mark 16:16
6 He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved; but he who has disbelieved shall be condemned.


He who does not believe is condemned.
He who believes must also be baptized.




What does Galatians 5:22 have to do with this?

There was not a lot of water at times in Israel.
Do you know HOW some were baptized because of this problem?






I don't think anything.
I like to do what Jesus commanded.



Because I ask does not imply that the reply is not known.

Jesus was Himself baptized...in water.

You're saying Jesus baptized with the Holy Spirit.
John stated that the one that comes after him will baptize with fire and the Holy Spirit.

In the OT the Holy Spirit did not INDWELL persons.
In the NT, He did.
Jesus said He would send the helper.
Jesus said we must be IN HIM and HE IN US.

BUT
jesus still commanded that we be baptized.

Exterior washing signified interior purification.

In the Abrahamic Covenant the sign was circumcision.
In the New Covenant the sign is baptism.
Click to expand...


Baptism into a name does not have to mean water.
Biblically, baptism can mean being placed in identification with someone, such as Jesus.
And, the term "name" could be used to represent the actual person.

Here is an example....


They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea." 1 Corinthians 10:2​

We need to start thinking Biblically to get the fuzzy cobwebs out of our minds.
 
Ouch said:
I DON'T INTERPRETAT NOTHING, I SHARE HIS WORD ONLY.
Click to expand...
Gen 2:17
but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
 
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Genez said:
Why? Because I just stood between you and Satan?

You are totally deceived about not being deceived.

You graduated from the Kenneth Copeland school of design.
Click to expand...


As I told you, we can judge a tree by it's fruits.

Your not standing between me and Satan you are working for him and I suspected it all along.

Satan knows what happens in the water and you think you can shut me up, that is your mission.

There is hope for you, when JESUS was on this earth there was some Jews who wanted to SHUT HIM UP, they were responsible for having HIM hung on the cross.

They hated JESUS so much they convinced the people around them to hate HIM as much as they did, as you do me and trying to get others to follow you.

What did JESUS do to them?

The first message that JESUS promised to be preached in Jerusalem.

Acts 2:37-41
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

They were the one of the FIRST Jews to be reborn in the NT.

JESUS will forgive you but you have to be humble.

I asked you many times have you received the Holy Ghost since you have believed?

I asked you have you been baptized in JESUS name?

It's not to late, JESUS loves you the same as HE does everyone else.
 
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