Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?

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Edward429451 said:
Dont be ridiculous. Your demanding that a few verses explain all about the rapture and that it must say it is pre trib.

You cant even do that for a post trib view. now what? I didnt say you were not allowed to ask questions or discuss. I posted a very relevant scripture that says, that is impossible to do. Can you understand scripture when you read it? I guess not lol.
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Well, it really sounds conclusive at this point, that pre tribulation is man made up belief, that has no scriptural support. You can only say it in so many ways, or ignore the question so many times.




You might as well join the flat earth society, a lot of them believe in pretribulation rapture as well. Guilt by association. lol I know, but at this point, you can just waive your hands about, and say you believe in the Easter Bunny. You guys have failed miserably in any real discussion. Sorry. Believe in pre tribulation rapture, if you want. It's a complete joke.

Class dismissed.
 
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2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
Yes? Most of those will be Christians,

If you recaĺl, the dead rise first at the rapture, and then those who are alive and remain.

We'll be back. Death has no hold on us.


⌛️
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Rev 14:14 has a gathering DURING THE TRIB.
So your dilemma is great.
Because 1 these 4 ( AHEM..THE RAPTURE) is BEFORE ANY GATHERING.

IOW your doctrine has the dead in Christ rising after the living of rev 14;14.

Yet another postrib impossibility.
 
2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:
Yes? Most of those will be Christians,

If you recaĺl, the dead rise first at the rapture, and then those who are alive and remain.

We'll be back. Death has no hold on us.


⌛️
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Partially true.
The timing is way off since you insist 1 thes 4 reads the dead do not rise first, but after the mid trib rapture of rev 14:14
 
Lemuel said:
John 6:63:
It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

No, I do not believe, that the bread and the wine literally transform into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

That's not my point though. A major teaching like a pretribulational rapture should be present in the writings of the early church even if contested, but it should be there.
How can it not be in the church?
The christian teaching was completed with the New Testament scriptures, the whole teaching was there, completed, finished.
It is not possible for new teachings to arise in the nineteenth century and be true.

As a sidenote: Can you prove, that Irenaeus believed that? Because I have seen an article, where it is argued, that he did in fact not mean that.
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You are basing doctrine on men.

Men with limited revelation.

Men that saw Israel scattered and defeated.
Flawed ancient dead men outside the bible is not the high ground.
 
Lemuel said:
John 6:63:
It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

No, I do not believe, that the bread and the wine literally transform into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

That's not my point though. A major teaching like a pretribulational rapture should be present in the writings of the early church even if contested, but it should be there.
How can it not be in the church?
The christian teaching was completed with the New Testament scriptures, the whole teaching was there, completed, finished.
It is not possible for new teachings to arise in the nineteenth century and be true.

As a sidenote: Can you prove, that Irenaeus believed that? Because I have seen an article, where it is argued, that he did in fact not mean that.
Click to expand...
The Catholics put to death anyone not believing their doctrine.
They burned their writings.

It is like wiping out all the Buffalo, then claiming they never existed.
 
Psalm1 said:
Post a postrib rapture verse.
Then show where rev14:14 is not true.
Should be easy
Click to expand...

So, you seen the movies?

Did you like part 1 or 2 better?

If you look at the dialogue, it ain't going no where. Believe in the a secret rapture, if you want. It has no support in Bible.

Soddy. Not sure if you can accept that fact.
 
Lemuel said:
Matth 24:32-51 Jesus is talking about the rapture? Indeed, yet he is still talking about his return:

Matth 24:37:
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.
Click to expand...
" my coming will BEFORE THE FLOOD, normal life, planning for the future, commerce, everyday life, watch and becready"

You actually REFRAME that into "the rapture will be in chaos with a destroyed planet, after the flood, with no commerce, no planning for the future, and the antichrist killing all refusing the mark"

...and that is plain to anyone , that that is BAD DOCTRINE....and a changed bible.

You are Actually PROVING there is more than one coming.
No matter how masterful you divert Jesus description of the rapture before the flood...the worse it gets.
Postrib doctrine, at that point, needs the "one taken one left" to be wicked people taken.

What those teachers will not tell you, is that, in the same breath, Jesus gives the virgin parable...another gathering , also in a everyday life settings, that has the same 50% left behind.

So now, the new postrib impossibility, is that HALF THE WORLD is wicked and half righteous. ( 50 % christian)

That DIRECTLY contradicts Jesus words of "...the road to heaven is narrow, and few their are that enter"

Jesus was mistaken?

The further postrib doctrine goes, the worst it gets.
 
kinda said:
So, you seen the movies?

Did you like part 1 or 2 better?

If you look at the dialogue, it ain't going no where. Believe in the a secret rapture, if you want. It has no support in Bible.

Soddy. Not sure if you can accept that fact.
Click to expand...
Waiting on the verse.
Surely there is one?

I will answer your question when you address my challenge.
 
kinda said:
So, you seen the movies?

Did you like part 1 or 2 better?

If you look at the dialogue, it ain't going no where. Believe in the a secret rapture, if you want. It has no support in Bible.

Soddy. Not sure if you can accept that fact.
Click to expand...
You are well versed?
Know the bible well?
Post for me just one postrib rapture verse.
Should be real easy
 
kinda said:
Well, it really sounds conclusive at this point, that pre tribulation is man made up belief, that has no scriptural support. You can only say it in so many ways, or ignore the question so many times.




You might as well join the flat earth society, a lot of them believe in pretribulation rapture as well. Guilt by association. lol I know, but at this point, you can just waive your hands about, and say you believe in the Easter Bunny. You guys have failed miserably in any real discussion. Sorry. Believe in pre tribulation rapture, if you want. It's a complete joke.

Class dismissed.
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It has plenty of scriptural support but you seem to have a hard time with communication. You dont even understand what I said, so how could you even understand the scriptures? You cant say well I dont understand it so that proves it dont exist...

Good one! Lol
 
The founder of this false doctrine of pre tribulation rapture....

The concept of a "secret rapture"—where2 Christians are suddenly removed by Jesus before a 7-year tribulation—
originated in the early 19th century (around 1830) with British theologian John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. It was developed through a system called dispensationalism, later popularized in the U.S. by the Scofield Reference Bible (1909).

  • John Nelson Darby (1800-1882): He formulated the idea of a two-stage return of Christ, separating the "rapture" (secret) from the "Second Coming" (public).
  • Roots: Some scholars point to a charismatic vision received by a 15-year-old Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald in 1830 as a catalyst for this new interpretation.
  • Dispensationalism: This theological framework, which divides history into distinct eras of God's interaction with humanity, is the foundation of the secret rapture doctrine.
Prior to 1830, this specific interpretation of a pretribulation, secret, two-stage return was generally absent from Christian history, creeds, and doctrines.


The pretribulation rapture is popular because
it offers a comforting, imminent "blessed hope" that the Church will be spared from the7-year Tribulation. It is heavily promoted through modern media, evangelical theology, and the belief that the Church is distinct from Israel, thus exempt from God's wrath.
 
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Lemuel said:
John 6:63:
It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, and are life.

No, I do not believe, that the bread and the wine literally transform into the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ.

That's not my point though. A major teaching like a pretribulational rapture should be present in the writings of the early church even if contested, but it should be there.
How can it not be in the church?
The christian teaching was completed with the New Testament scriptures, the whole teaching was there, completed, finished.
It is not possible for new teachings to arise in the nineteenth century and be true.

As a sidenote: Can you prove, that Irenaeus believed that? Because I have seen an article, where it is argued, that he did in fact not mean that.
Click to expand...
That ball is batted back and forth, but that catholic false doctrine was evolved out of those dead ancients that had limited revelation, and you are placing that shaky ground and a foundation of doctrine in place of the bible.

Mine is from the bible, whether the bible agrees with them, or not.
 
From Wiki...

"John Nelson Darby (18 November 1800 – 29 April 1882) was a Bible teacher, one of the influential figures among the original Plymouth Brethren and the founder of the Exclusive Brethren. He is considered to be the father of modern dispensationalism and futurism. Pre-tribulation rapture theology was popularized extensively in the 1830s by Darby and the Plymouth Brethren,[1] and further popularized in the United States in the early 20th century by the wide circulation of the Scofield Reference Bible.[2]

Criticism

Charles Haddon Spurgeon, Pastor of the Metropolitan Tabernacle and contemporary of Darby, published criticism of Darby and Brethrenism.[19] His main criticism was that Darby and the Plymouth Brethren rejected the vicarious purpose of Christ's obedience as well as imputed righteousness. He viewed these of such importance and so central to the Gospel that it led him to publish this statement about the rest of their belief in the Sword and Trowel.[20]

James Grant wrote: "With the deadly heresies entertained and taught by the Plymouth Brethren, in relation to some of the most momentous of all the doctrines of the Gospel, and to which I have adverted at some length, I feel assured that my readers will not be surprised at any other views, however unscriptural and pernicious they may be, which the Darbyites have embraced and zealously seek to propagate"[21]

https://davidruybalid.wordpress.com...s-origin-and-evolution-in-christian-theology/
 
"Darby’s teachings were controversial and not widely accepted during his lifetime, but they became more influential in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and have had a lasting impact on Christian theology and eschatology to this day.

More Wiki...

John Nelson Darby, the 19th-century theologian often credited with popularizing the pre-tribulation rapture, did not find the term in the Bible but derived the concept from specific texts
. His foundational verse was 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17, which describes believers being "caught up" to meet the Lord in the air.
Key Bible verses used by Darby to support his rapture theology include:
  • 1 Thessalonians 4:16–17: The central passage for the "catching up" (Latin: rapturo) of the saints.
  • 1 Corinthians 15:51–52: Describes the "mystery" of believers being changed and raised incorruptible at the last trumpet.
  • Matthew 24:40–41 (and Luke 17:34–36): Mentions two people in a field/bed, with one "taken" and the other "left".
  • John 14:3: Jesus promises to come again and receive believers to himself.
  • Revelation 3:10: Used to argue for exemption from the "hour of trial" (tribulation).
  • Revelation 4:1: Interpreted as a symbolic representation of the church being called up to heaven before the tribulation begins.
  • Titus 2:13: Refers to the "blessed hope" of Christ's appearing.

Hey look, here is a summary of the pretibulation rapture...I helped you Darby's out. Sorry "Darbyites"....
 
kinda said:
Hey look, here is a summary of the pretibulation rapture...I helped you Darby's out.
Click to expand...

You sound like your getting upset that some of us are pretrib.

dont get upset this early in the morning, you wont have any left for the rest of the day!
 
So, I had to just lay the framework for both sides, because someone had to get it done....

The post-tribulation rapture doctrine, which asserts the church will endure the Tribulation and be gathered by Christ afterward, originates from a traditional, historicist interpretation of Bible prophecy, rather than a single 19th-century founder. It was the dominant view among early church fathers and has continued through the centuries, arguing for a single return of Christ.

  • Early Church Beliefs: Historically, many early Christians held the view that the church would face the Antichrist and then be gathered by Christ at His Second Coming.
  • Scriptural Basis: Post-tribulationists base their doctrine on passages like Matthew 24:29-31, which explicitly states, "Immediately after the tribulation of those days... they shall gather together his elect...".
  • Distinction from Dispensationalism: Unlike the pre-tribulation rapture, which arose in the 1830s through John Nelson Darby, post-tribulationism argues that "the Rapture" and the Second Coming are the same event at the end of the age.
  • Key Proponents: Modern advocates for this position often include theologians and teachers such as George E. Ladd, Robert H. Gundry, and others who emphasize a literal, chronological reading of Revelation.
 
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kinda said:
The founder of this false doctrine of pre tribulation rapture....

The concept of a "secret rapture"—where2 Christians are suddenly removed by Jesus before a 7-year tribulation—
originated in the early 19th century (around 1830) with British theologian John Nelson Darby and the Plymouth Brethren. It was developed through a system called dispensationalism, later popularized in the U.S. by the Scofield Reference Bible (1909).

  • John Nelson Darby (1800-1882): He formulated the idea of a two-stage return of Christ, separating the "rapture" (secret) from the "Second Coming" (public).
  • Roots: Some scholars point to a charismatic vision received by a 15-year-old Scottish girl named Margaret Macdonald in 1830 as a catalyst for this new interpretation.
  • Dispensationalism: This theological framework, which divides history into distinct eras of God's interaction with humanity, is the foundation of the secret rapture doctrine.
Prior to 1830, this specific interpretation of a pretribulation, secret, two-stage return was generally absent from Christian history, creeds, and doctrines.


The pretribulation rapture is popular because
it offers a comforting, imminent "blessed hope" that the Church will be spared from the7-year Tribulation. It is heavily promoted through modern media, evangelical theology, and the belief that the Church is distinct from Israel, thus exempt from God's wrath.
Click to expand...
That has been debunked for years.

You are simply quoting postrib talking points.

...going outside the bible to support a doctrine.

I see this over and over.
Remember how they used to get all worked up over Margaret Mcdonald?
She was one of your doctrines big witnesses ( among numerous other dead people).
Postribbers pulled her out like a gun slinger.

Well...I read her vision, and yep it was a pretrib rapture vision alright.

But I kept reading and SHE WAS POSTRIB RAPTURE, BECAUSE SHE BELIEVED THE CHURCH HAD TO BE PURIFIED BEFORE THE RAPTURE.

It was I , 25 years ago, that brought that out.
Yes, every postrib, man made rapture talking point, is EASLILY DEBUNKED.

That Darby false information is really dusty and tired.

Imagine a doctrine that jettisons the bible due to it's Scriptural famine, and takes extra biblical nonsense to the debate, only to get owned by anyone with a bible.

Presto!!!! The postrib rapture doctrine is alive!!!
Actually no!!!!
But they believe it!!!!
 
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