Pre Trib or Post trib rapture?

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kinda said:
Pre-tribulation is false doctrine.. I thought you guys were suppose to be raptured last year or something.
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You guys? Ok.

As far as I know we were supposed to be raptured last year but the Lord wanted to have mercy on people like you to give you time to come around so He delayed the rapture, He wants you there too!

A post trib view has not been shown with supporting scripture and it sounds like from your tone that you know it isnt going to be until after the trib so the lest time you expect Him is pretrib.

And He said in scripture I will come when you least expect it. It's worth thinking about.
 
cv5 said:
The 12-Step Hebrew Wedding Pattern
It is not a metaphor invented later — it is built into Jewish marriage itself, which God designed to be a prophetic blueprint.
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting, it is a great picture :D

I also like reminding people, when Abraham sent his servant to fetch the bride for his son, In contrast to the end of the age, he said that Isaac was not to go to her land to fetch her himself, Although He did go out to meet her when she was already on the back.

Genesis 24:6 Abraham said to him beware you do not take my son back there.
 
kinda said:
Pre-tribulation is false doctrine.. I thought you guys were suppose to be raptured last year or something.

You like mysteries...so let's try to solve it.

So the last trumpet will blast and the mystery will be revealed, right?

Revelation 10:7

When the seventh angel blows his trumpet, God’s mysterious plan will be fulfilled. It will happen just as he announced it to his servants the prophets.”

but that in the days of the trumpet call to be sounded by the seventh angel, the mystery of God would be fulfilled, just as he announced to his servants the prophets.


-You should look at what happened at all the those preceding trumpet sounds, it sure looks like maybe a tribulation might of happened...hmmm maybe....

Let's look some more....


When will Jesus return??

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.


So here we are again, a trumpet will sound (last trump from 1 Corinthians 51-52, see below), dead will be raised, and the elect will be caught up to meet the Lord.

The scripture you used...

1 Corinthians 15:51-52

51 Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed— 52 in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.


Let's take a quick snapshot of the first 6 trumpets of Revelation, before we hit the seventh.....

Summary of the Plagues from the First 6 Trumpets
The first six trumpets in the Book of Revelation describe a series of plagues that will occur during the Great Tribulation. These plagues are part of a series of judgments from God that warn people to repent and return to faith in Him. Here is a brief overview of the first six trumpets:

So, as you can see, before we hit the last trumpet in the book of Revelations, all hell brakes loose, or a great tribulation has happened. Good thing the elect don't have to be tortured by the 5th Trumpet! Praise the Lord! That sounds like a very miserable 5 months.

"kinda, you don't get it, I believe in pretribulation, because I seen the left behind series. My mind is made up". "You know who Kirk Cameron is right?"


Maybe there is some scripture, that could possibly summarize everything for us, so we don't get confused, because of this mystery thing. Detective work can be complicated. Well, let's see....

Mathew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


Mystery solved....

1. So, the book of Matthew confirms the summary, IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION, the sun will darkened.

(See 4th Trumpet in Revelation, it some how matches with Mathew 24:29, 4th Trumpet: A third of daylight, moonlight, and starlight is taken away, making days and nights significantly darker. ).

2. Then they shall the Son of Man be revealed, all the people of the earth will see Jesus!


The big finally.....

3. Then FINALLY a trumpet OR THE LAST TRUMPET will sound (last trumpet, 1 Corinthians 52), after the last trumpet blast, AND THEN THE ELECT WILL BE WITH JESUS FOR ETERNITY....

What proceeds the rapture?

A. 6 trumpets of tribulation

B. Sign of Jesus coming from Heaven

C. The final 7th Trumpet.

Remember, A before B, B before C, and A.B.C before the rapture.

O.k., bonus round....

Maybe the Biblical Holidays can shed some light to the subject matter...

Sure!

We have Yom Kippur, Feast of Trumpets, and Feast of Tabernacles.

Yom Kippur trumpets are sounding and it's a time of being humble/repentance before the Lord.
Feast of Trumpets is the Jewish New Year and a time of blowing trumpets, or shofars.
Feast of Tabernacles symbolizes dwelling with God.

You mean even the Biblical Holidays help solve the mystery?!?!

First is a time of repentance, then Trumpet will sound, and finally God dwells with man...


I hope this helps solve the mystery, if not I don't really want to talk about it. This topic has been discussed at nauseam.

I will just keep this little outline, for the next great pretrib encounter...Doh!
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I will just keep this little outline, for the next great pretrib encounter...Doh!
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Haha, I dont understand why there would be more encounters! once pretrib is explained people will see it, then understand and there will no longer be any debate!:devilish:

A question! do you and do other post-tribbers see the seventh trump of revelation as the last trump for the rapture?

I guess I can see the 7th as last trumpet judgment and 1st cor 15 mentions the last trump, but is it not a stretch to say that is the conclusive proof that they are one and the same? Do you see the rapture as a judgment? When do you have the vial/bowl judgments before the seventh trumpet or after?
 
Edward429451 said:
We have to be careful not to mix it up and make two visits sound like one. If He sends out His Angels to gather His elect (the saints) and then what about this time that He comes and for what reason?!

1 Thessalonians 4:17
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord..../KJV

Youu see? Two trips. At the (pretrib) rapture we meet Jesus in the air.
Then at the 2nd coming He comes to earth to the MT of Olives. You're mixing it up.
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I don't understand your post.

From 1. Thessalonians 4:
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now compare this description of the coming of the Lord to the description of the coming of the Lord in Matth 24:29-42.

The signs that accompany the coming of the Lord, are they the same in this two passages? Which are named?

- second coming of Jesus in the clouds
- Trumpet
- Angels
- gathering of the saints to the Lord

I see the same event being described. It's very similar.

So unless you include the time when Jesus supposedly came to you through your wall, I don't see the two trips you are talking about.
 
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Clayman said:
Why does not God speak plainly it would clear up so much confusion? Why did Jesus not explain plainly that He was in fact God? Why did He not say simply and straight up "I God have come in the form of a human to die as a sacrifice on the cross to redeem you all my friends"? Everyone including the Pharisee's would for sure, would have went ahhh.... now I see YAY!!!

There are so many people out there who read and look at the Word of God in the format of the bible and find everything seems to be in types, pictures and parables and end up just rejecting Him!

It might sound strange but God speaks in a way to both reveal and conceal, so that only those who genuinely want to understand will understand.


Just to be clear and plain, my answer is Yes God is also trying to hide the timing of the rapture from both unbelievers and those who don't fill their lamps up waiting for Him.


Its strange you don't see a difference, if I took a class of 10 children aged 11 who had zero knowledge and zero bias of the subject and asked if there was one or two comings here, they would say two! then they would explain to me why and how they seem to be different and the answer of course is one is known/expected and visible to everyone, and the other is unknown/secret.

I wont go in depth unless you want me to...

but Verse 21-26 is pretty clear that the the subject matter is during the great tribulation and they are warned there will be false Christs, but they are not to believe it for the coming of the son of man will come at the end of the tribulation, so we have the timing given to us, we know the hour of the coming is at the end of the 70th week. Like lightning flashing from the east to the west.Have you seen a thunderstorm where lightning fills the whole sky, where the earth shakes from the thunder, it is pretty cool, anyway it is a very visible experience!

verse 30 then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, we all know that a sign is visible and all the tribes of earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds with power and great glory.

So we are told the hour when the Lord will return to earth, it is not today not tomorrow, not 1 year into the tribulation, not two years into the tribulation, but visibly at the end. I know exactly when He is coming.

Then comes the contradiction, do you know what contradiction means? a statement, situation, or idea that presents opposing or inconsistent elements, meaning two parts cannot both be true or exist together

verse 36 of that day and hour know one knows

verse 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so also will be the coming of the Son of Man, 39: and did not know till the flood came and took them all away.

It is clearly now talking about an unexpected coming one where we do not now the hour an invisible coming.

Two men will be in the field, two on the roof, two grinding, and a taking/snatching away of some so we are instructed to be watchful for an imminent coming and a catching away, also referred by some as the rapture.

verse 42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour is the Lord coming.
verse 44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

Im saying the Lords coming for His bride is imminent who would even say otherwise? verse 48, But if that evil servant says in his heart "My master is delaying his coming"

Anyway there are clearly two different comings presented in Matthew 24 or it is contradicting itself and the wonderful thing is all other scripture supports this view and lines up and explains it even more for us in simple plain language, well to those who can see it anyway.
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Why would he describe the tribulation, then his coming after the tribulation and then another coming which allegedly took place beforehand without saying "But what I tell you next actually came beforehand." It doesn't make sense from the order in the sermon, unless he wanted to be deceptive towards his disciples.

From Matth 24:
But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
and then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
And he shall send forth his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh;
even so ye also, when ye see all these things, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors.
Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished.
Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
But of that day and hour knoweth no one, not even the angels of heaven, neither the Son, but the Father only.
And as were the days of Noah, so shall be the coming of the Son of man.

Where is the change of topic? He announces the coming of the Son of Man and then he says the coming will be like and proceeds to describe the thing people call rapture.
It like: Here's A and now I give you a parable for A.
There's no indication, that the following lies in the past in relation to what was said beforehand.

Now concerning, that we cannot know the time of the coming, I agree with you. Jesus Christ himself said it.
 
cv5 said:
The 12-Step Hebrew Wedding Pattern
1) The Bride Is Chosen by the Father

In ancient Israel, the father of the groom chose the bride.


Spiritual meaning
God the Father chose the Church for His Son before the world began.


“You did not choose Me, but I chose you…” — John 15:16​
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…” — Ephesians 1:4​

2) The Bride Price Is Paid

The groom paid a mohar (bride price) to redeem the bride.


Spiritual meaning
Jesus paid the price with His blood.


“You were bought with a price.” — 1 Corinthians 6:20​

3) The Marriage Covenant (Betrothal) Is Made

The couple drank from a cup of wine sealing the covenant (kiddushin).
They were legally married — though not yet living together.


Spiritual meaning
The New Covenant was sealed at the Last Supper.


“This cup is the new covenant in My blood.” — Luke 22:20​

The Church today is betrothed — not yet living with Christ physically.


4) The Bride Is Set Apart

The bride was now consecrated to her groom alone.


Spiritual meaning
The Church is sanctified — set apart for Christ.


“I betrothed you to one husband… Christ.” — 2 Corinthians 11:2​

5) The Groom Leaves to Prepare a Place

The groom returned to his father’s house to build a bridal chamber.


He could not return until his father approved the place.


Spiritual meaning
Jesus ascended to Heaven to prepare our dwelling.


“I go to prepare a place for you.” — John 14:2​

6) The Bride Waits — Not Knowing the Day or Hour

Only the father decided when the groom could go get his bride.


The bride lived in expectation — always ready.


Spiritual meaning
No one knows when Christ will return.


“No one knows the day or hour…” — Matthew 24:36​

7) The Groom Comes With a Shout and a Trumpet

When the father approved, the groom went to fetch the bride.


He came at night with:
• a shout
• a trumpet blast
• a procession


Spiritual meaning
This is the rapture signal.


“The Lord Himself will descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God…” — 1 Thessalonians 4:16​

8) The Bride Is Taken Away (This Is the Rapture)

The bride was lifted up and carried away to the groom’s house.


She did not walk — she was taken.


Spiritual meaning
The Church is caught up.


“We who are alive… shall be caught up together… to meet the Lord in the air.” — 1 Thessalonians 4:17​

This is where Chronister places the rapture — before judgment.


9) The Bride Enters the Bridal Chamber

The couple entered the chuppah (bridal chamber) for about 7 days.


The door was shut.


Spiritual meaning
The Church is in Heaven while Earth goes through the 7-year Tribulation.


“Come… enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you.” — Isaiah 26:20​

10) The Marriage Is Consummated

The bride and groom became one.


Spiritual meaning
The Church is permanently united with Christ.


“They are no longer two but one.” — Matthew 19:6​

11) The Bride Is Revealed

After the chamber period, the bride appeared publicly.


Spiritual meaning
The Church returns with Christ in glory.


“When Christ appears, you also will appear with Him in glory.” — Colossians 3:4​

12) The Marriage Supper

A huge public feast followed.


Spiritual meaning
This is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.


“Blessed are those invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” — Revelation 19:9​

🔥 Why This Is So Powerful

This wedding model:


  • Explains why the Church is removed before judgment
  • Matches rapture language exactly
  • Explains “no one knows the day or hour”
  • Explains the 7-year separation
  • Explains why the Church returns with Christ

It is not a metaphor invented later — it is built into Jewish marriage itself, which God designed to be a prophetic blueprint.
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The groom and his bride were locked in their chamber for seven days?!
That sounds pretty awesome... Of cource they were, because why would they be not?
Could you be bothered to provide historical sources for your interesting wedding procedure plan?
I highly doubt to be perfectly honest to you, that the couple was locked in their chamber for seven days.
 
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Lemuel said:
The groom and his bride were locked in their chamber for seven days?!
That sounds pretty awesome... Of cource they were, because why would they be not?
Could you be bothered to provide historical sources for your interesting wedding procedure plan?
I highly doubt to be perfectly honest to you, that the couple was locked in their chamber for seven days.
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Provide the sources? Do you think there's going to be one verse posted that suddenly clears it all up fpr you?! No my friend, you have to study these things for yourself. All that stuff is common knowledge.
 
Lemuel said:
I don't understand your post.

From 1. Thessalonians 4:
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep.
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;
then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Now compare this description of the coming of the Lord to the description of the coming of the Lord in Matth 24:29-42.

The signs that accompany the coming of the Lord, are they the same in this two passages? Which are named?

- second coming of Jesus in the clouds
- Trumpet
- Angels
- gathering of the saints to the Lord

I see the same event being described. It's very similar.

So unless you include the time when Jesus supposedly came to you through your wall, I don't see the two trips you are talking about.
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Your trying to make what I say match your preconconceived notions. You never will understand pretrib if you can not set aside your pre conceived notions and read with an open mind.

Good luck with that.
 
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Edward429451 said:
Provide the sources? Do you think there's going to be one verse posted that suddenly clears it all up fpr you?! No my friend, you have to study these things for yourself. All that stuff is common knowledge.
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I'm asking specifically concerning this supposed SOP of traditional jewish marriages. If this were common knowledge, it would be very easy to provide sources.
Although I don't dislike the idea of being locked into a chamber with my future wife at first glance, I have the suspicion, that this whole marriage plan is made-up nonsense.
Now, I'm not saying it is, just provide sources.
 
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Edward429451 said:
Your trying to make what I say match your preconconceived notions. You never will understand pretrib if you can not set aside your pre conceived notions and read with an open mind.

Good luck with that.
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I'm not trying to do whatever you said I'm trying to do. Did I misunderstand anything you said in that post? If so, just clear it up.

I deny the the allegation of preconceived notions, because as I made abundantly clear, I am against the pre-thing, so how can there be preconceived notions?
 
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Lemuel said:
I'm asking specifically concerning this supposed SOP of traditional jewish marriages. If this were common knowledge, it would be very easy to provide sources.
Although I don't dislike the idea of being locked into a chamber with my future wife at first glance, I have the suspicion, that this whole marriage plan is made-up nonsense.
Now, I'm not saying it is, just provide sources.
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Isaiah 26:20-21
20 Come, my people, enter thou into thy chambers, and shut thy doors about thee: hide thyself as it were for a little moment, until the indignation be overpast.

21 For, behold, the Lord cometh out of his place to punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity: the earth also shall disclose her blood, and shall no more cover her slain..../KJV

We're not making this stuff up. Google the Ketuba, I dont have any notes in front of me, I'm still drinking coffee lol. I googled it and a zillion hits came up so you should be able to easily find out everything you want to know about it.
 
Lemuel said:
I'm not trying to do whatever you said I'm trying to do. Did I misunderstand anything you said in that post? If so, just clear it up.

I deny the the allegation of preconceived notions, because as I made abundantly clear, I am against the pre-thing, so how can there be preconceived notions?
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Now that's funny, Brother! You hold to the post trib view of the rapture so you have preconceived notions of a post trib rapture. I'm not playing word games. But if a person believes one thing and wonders if they are wrong then in order to double check themselves they must first pretend they dont think anything yet. Set that aside for the exercise of double checking oneself. Havent you ever done that to yourself when learning things?

If you hold to the posttrib view as you listen to the pretrib view being stated you would never catch any mistakes that way because your posttrib view would dominate your thoughts and block understanding.

So before you go into the "classroom" for a class, you have no view, you are...teachable. Does it make sense as stand alone data or not? It either makes sense or it dont. You post tribbers have not set me straight on anything so no one writes much in support of the posttrib view because there isnt any support for it academically, so people will either remain silent, or start calling names, lol! Can no one explain to the poor dogs a post trib rapture and make it make sense?!

I used to be post trib! Until I had a very good teacher who walked me through it (pre trib) and I understand it and it does make sense.

I suspect that people of a post trib position are the same people who have not done the homework for themself, so they are wrong and dont even know it.
 
Clayman said:
Haha, I dont understand why there would be more encounters! once pretrib is explained people will see it, then understand and there will no longer be any debate!:devilish:
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Clayman said:
A question! do you and do other post-tribbers see the seventh trump of revelation as the last trump for the rapture?
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Clayman said:
I guess I can see the 7th as last trumpet judgment and 1st cor 15 mentions the last trump, but is it not a stretch to say that is the conclusive proof that they are one and the same? Do you see the rapture as a judgment? When do you have the vial/bowl judgments before the seventh trumpet or after?
Click to expand...






Sorry pretribulation rapture is a fraud and by the responses, it further reinforces the point. It's so silly....

Yes, well, at least I do. The mystery will be revealed on the Last Trumpet/7th Trumpet in Revelation/1 Corinthians 15:51-52. How could there be any question. I wrote a very detail, piece by piece explanation. Broke it down in a very simple format, constantly repeating the points, and drawing a valid conclusion, but still asked what I meant. lol

By the way, I'm proud of my original post in this thread, I think I did the topic justice, but I surely can't take credit of this master piece. It was inspired by many Bible teachers, and especially Monte Judah, who I learned a great deal from. Give credit where credit is due.. Anyways, I truly hope this post can an open an eye or two of the false doctrine of this pretribulation rapture.

So, if the pretribulation happens on the last trump, then aren't there other trumpet blast after this pretrend pretribulation rapture? So it wouldn't be the last trumpet, now would it?

It would be like the mystery fulfilled and not the last trump, but the mystery fulfilled the second time, and eight more trumpet blasts later.. Do you see how silly this pretribulation rapture is? It's like a lie, that keeps making less sense.... You have literally pretend things and ad lib, ignore things, and just watch fictional Hollywood Christian movies to believe this non-sense.

Anyways...

If you recall....

2nd Peter 3:10

But the day of the Lord will come like a thief, and then the heavens will pass away with a roar, and the heavenly bodies will be burned up and dissolved, and the earth and the works that are done on it will be exposed.

1 Thessalonians 5:2

For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.


Revelation 16:15

15 (“Behold, I am coming like a thief! Blessed is the one who stays awake, keeping his garments on, that he may not go about naked and be seen exposed!”)

Matthew 24 is the cheat sheet.

Mathew 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.


After the tribulation, the sun will be dark, and the moon not light up, and the stars shall fall, and the heavens shaken....

When the sun stops shining and the moon and stars stop giving light, then the Lord will return like a thief in the night....Just imagine the whole world is in literal darkness, and everyone will surely perish, if something isn't done... While the whole world mourns and cries out, THE TRUMPET BLASTS, AND THE LORD MAKES THE BIGGEST ENTRY TO HUMANKIND EVER!

OIP.jp7qNJoSRqtESU1woIUzdgHaDt


That's what I call a finishing act. Lord truly knows how to write the story of mankind.

I guess I have second thoughts, while typing out my response, I see things that were hidden before, so maybe I was little to short sighted on the benefits of discussion. To me it's an open and shut case, but there are things to learn obviously. So, thanks for that.

I will throw in my Concave Hollow Earth beliefs, if the earth is the shape I believe it is, it will be possible for all eyes of the earth to see the second coming of Jesus, our Lord and Savior.

OIP.lUfcYXSojGRPNyz833nWmAHaFa


Anyways, don't want to derail the thread, but I'm throwing it in there for good measure.. lol

I would like to encourage everyone, who maybe alive during the second coming of Jesus. You will not miss the Lord's coming, it is no secret, the world will see it. After all the tribulation and earth gone dark, you will be pleading every day for the Lord to come quickly. As of now the sun still shines and we have about 8 billion people left on earth, and etc.
 
I'm not familiar with civilian wedding traditions but I do recall biblical direction concerning military personnel.

Deuteronomy 24:5
When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.


Jesus' first advent was as a civil servant, per se, that is, He came as the Son of Joseph, but His second advent will be His coming as Son of David. And, since He is coming for His bride, and Father does have the Wedding Supper all arranged, will he war before the wedding, wait a year after, or both, before He engages in war?

It strikes me, in the reading of Deuteronomy 24:5, that "a year" might very possibly be, to God, something as "a thousand years." :unsure:
 
Lemuel said:
I'm asking specifically concerning this supposed SOP of traditional jewish marriages. If this were common knowledge, it would be very easy to provide sources.
Although I don't dislike the idea of being locked into a chamber with my future wife at first glance, I have the suspicion, that this whole marriage plan is made-up nonsense.
Now, I'm not saying it is, just provide sources.
Click to expand...
Well then, you might want to carefully examine another crucial, pivotal Hebrew wedding scenario, where the Kinsman Redeemer is doing His work.

******************************************************************************************************

This is one of the richest prophetic pictures in the entire Old Testament. The Book of Ruth is not just a love story — it is a prophetic model of the Church age and the redemption of the Gentile Bride by Christ.


I’ll walk it step-by-step and then show how the threshing floor = pre-trib rapture.


1. Boaz = Christ, the Kinsman-Redeemer

The Hebrew word is goel (גואל) — kinsman-redeemer.
A goel had to meet four legal requirements under the Law of Moses (Lev 25; Deut 25):


Requirement Boaz Jesus Must be a close relative
Boaz was Elimelech’s near kinsman
Jesus became human — “took on flesh” - Must be able to redeem
Boaz was wealthy - Christ possessed infinite worth
Must be willing - Boaz said “I will redeem” - Jesus willingly went to the cross
Must be free himself - Boaz had no debt - Christ was sinless

Boaz is explicitly called “a mighty man of wealth” (Ruth 2:1) — a prophetic shadow of Christ’s infinite redemptive power.


2. Ruth = the Gentile Bride (the Church)

Ruth is not Jewish — she is a Moabite, from a cursed Gentile nation (Deut 23:3). Yet:


“Your people shall be my people, and your God my God.” (Ruth 1:16)​

That is the confession of the Church.


Ruth represents Gentiles who attach themselves to Israel’s Messiah.


Just like the Church:
• She is foreign
• She is poor
• She has no inheritance
• She is brought into blessing by grace


She does not pursue Boaz.
Boaz pursues Ruth.


This mirrors Christ choosing the Church.


3. Naomi = Israel

Naomi is the Jewish mother figure.
Her name means “pleasant”, but she becomes “Mara” (bitter) — Israel in exile.


She returns to the land empty (Ruth 1:21).
This is Israel after rejection of Messiah.


But Ruth returns with her — the Gentile bride walking with Israel back into blessing.


4. The Harvests = Church Age

There are two harvests in Ruth:


• Barley harvest (Ruth 1–2) — Firstfruits CHURCH
• Wheat harvest (Ruth 2–3) — Full harvest ISRAEL AND THE WORLD POST-CHURCH


Ruth meets Boaz during the FIRST harvest — just as the Church is called out during the first harvest.


Jesus said:


“The harvest is the end of the age.” THIS IS THE WHEAT HARVEST AFTER THE CHURCH HAS BEEN RAPTURED​

5. The Threshing Floor = Rapture Type

Now the most important part.


In Ruth 3:


Boaz sleeps on the threshing floor after winnowing barley.​

Threshing floor in Scripture always represents judgment & separation (Matt 3:12, Rev 14).


Grain is separated from chaff.


This is end-of-age imagery.


What does Ruth do?

Naomi instructs her:


  1. Wash
  2. Anoint yourself
  3. Put on garments
  4. Go down secretly at night
  5. Approach Boaz while he sleeps

That is a picture of the Church:


• Washed (justified)
• Anointed (Holy Spirit)
• Clothed (righteousness)
• Comes in the night (unexpected)
• Goes up to Christ


Ruth uncovers Boaz’s feet and lies down.


This is a marriage request in Hebrew culture.


Boaz responds:


“Fear not… I will do all that you ask.”​

Then he gives her six measures of barley — not seven.


Seven = completion.
Six = work unfinished.


Why?


Because the marriage has not happened yet.


6. Ruth Leaves BEFORE Judgment Falls

Ruth leaves the threshing floor before morning:


“Let it not be known that a woman came to the floor.” (Ruth 3:14)​

This is huge.


She is removed before daylight, before public judgment begins.


That is exactly the pattern of the pre-trib rapture:


• Night
• Secret
• Removed before wrath
• Bride taken
• Then legal judgments begin


After Ruth leaves…


Boaz goes to the city gate to settle the legal redemption.


The city gate = judgment seat.


That is when Christ deals with Israel and the land — AFTER the Church is gone.


7. Then the Marriage Happens

Ruth is not present at the gate.
The Bride is not involved in the judgment of the earth.


After redemption is legally settled:


“Boaz took Ruth, and she became his wife.” (Ruth 4:13)​

Then comes fruitfulness.


8. Why this proves Pre-Trib

Order in Ruth:


  1. Gentile bride chosen
  2. Taken secretly from threshing floor
  3. Legal redemption of land (Israel)
  4. Public marriage
  5. Kingdom blessing

Order in prophecy:


  1. Church called
  2. Raptured
  3. Israel redeemed during Tribulation
  4. Marriage of the Lamb
  5. Kingdom

They match exactly.


Final Truth

Ruth is not a romance.
It is a prophetic blueprint of Christ and the Church.


Boaz = Christ
Ruth = Gentile Bride
Naomi = Israel
Threshing floor = end-time separation
Removal at night = rapture
Gate judgment = Tribulation
Marriage = Kingdom


The Church is taken before the threshing of the nations begins.
 
Mem said:
I'm not familiar with civilian wedding traditions but I do recall biblical direction concerning military personnel.

Deuteronomy 24:5
When a man hath taken a new wife, he shall not go out to war, neither shall he be charged with any business: but he shall be free at home one year, and shall cheer up his wife which he hath taken.


Jesus' first advent was as a civil servant, per se, that is, He came as the Son of Joseph, but His second advent will be His coming as Son of David. And, since He is coming for His bride, and Father does have the Wedding Supper all arranged, will he war before the wedding, wait a year after, or both, before He engages in war?

It strikes me, in the reading of Deuteronomy 24:5, that "a year" might very possibly be, to God, something as "a thousand years." :unsure:
Click to expand...
Thank you for bringing up Joseph, yet another STUNNING PROOF of the pre-trib rapture!

**********************************************************************************************************

This is one of the clearest prophetic patterns of the Church hidden in Christ before Israel’s time of trouble begins — and it fits perfectly with the Ruth–Boaz pattern you were just studying.


Let’s walk it carefully.


1. Joseph = Rejected Messiah

Joseph is the most Christ-like figure in Genesis.


Joseph Jesus Loved by his father - Beloved Son of the Father
Rejected by his brothers - Rejected by Israel
Sold for silver - Betrayed for silver
Taken to the Gentiles - Taken to the nations
Thought to be dead - Messiah “cut off”
Exalted to the throne - Jesus exalted to heaven

Joseph disappears from Israel’s story for 13 years — just like Christ has been absent while the Gentile age unfolds.


2. Joseph Marries a Gentile Bride BEFORE the Famine

This is the key:


“Pharaoh gave him Asenath, the daughter of Potiphera priest of On, as wife.” (Gen 41:45)​

Joseph does not marry while rejected.
He does not marry during the famine.
He marries after exaltation but before judgment.


That is exactly where the Church is joined to Christ — after His resurrection, before the Tribulation.


Asenath is:
• A Gentile
• A pagan
• Unknown to Israel
• Brought into royal position by grace


She becomes Joseph’s wife while his brothers are still in unbelief.


3. Joseph’s Two Sons = Church Age

Before the famine begins:


“Joseph had two sons… Manasseh and Ephraim.” (Gen 41:50–52)​

Their names are prophetic:


Manasseh = “God has made me forget my trouble and my father’s house”
Ephraim = “God has made me fruitful in the land of my affliction”


This describes Christ’s present age:


• He is not dealing with Israel
• He is fruitful among Gentiles


These sons are born before famine — before the Tribulation.


4. Asenath Is Hidden During the Famine

When the famine (judgment) hits, something remarkable happens:


Joseph deals with his brothers
Joseph pours out grain
Joseph reveals himself


But Asenath is never mentioned again.


Why?


Because she is already in the palace.


She is not part of Israel’s testing.
She is not in the famine.
She is not in the repentance process.


She is with Joseph.


5. Joseph Reveals Himself to Israel AFTER the Bride Is Secure

Joseph reveals himself to his brothers in Genesis 45 — in the middle of famine.


This is a perfect picture of Christ revealing Himself to Israel in the Tribulation:


“I am Joseph… whom you sold.”​

This parallels Zechariah 12:10:


“They shall look upon Me whom they have pierced.”​

Joseph weeps.
Israel repents.
Reconciliation happens.


But his Gentile bride was already taken before that happened.


6. Order of Events = Pre-Trib Rapture

Genesis gives the order:


  1. Joseph rejected
  2. Joseph exalted
  3. Gentile bride taken
  4. Children born
  5. Famine begins
  6. Israel brought to repentance
  7. Joseph revealed
  8. Kingdom provision

Prophecy gives the same order:


  1. Christ rejected
  2. Christ exalted
  3. Church taken
  4. Gospel bears fruit
  5. Tribulation
  6. Israel repents
  7. Christ revealed
  8. Kingdom

They match line for line.


7. Why Joseph Never Brings Asenath to Israel

Joseph never introduces Asenath to his brothers.


Why?


Because the Church is not Israel’s bride.
The Church is Christ’s bride.


Joseph feeds Israel.
Joseph rules Israel.
But Asenath remains separate.


Final Truth

Joseph’s story is not Jewish history — it is prophetic theology.


Asenath = Gentile Church
Joseph = exalted Christ
Famine = Tribulation
Reunion = Israel’s salvation


The Church is married and hidden before the world enters judgment — exactly like Joseph and his bride.


If you want, I can show how Isaac & Rebekah or Moses & Zipporah reveal the same pattern again.
 
pre or post-trib rapture?

Pre-trib is a fraud and false doctrine?

"What Saith The Scriptures"?:

The Many Scriptural Reasons I believe God's Sound Doctrine built on His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!:

God's Great GRACE Departure! {aka Pre-Trib rapture}

Outline!:

"Do all things Decently And In Order!" (1 Corinthians 14:40 AV)

(1A) PEACE With God! Receiving The Holy Spirit For understanding?
(1B) 1A e-x-p-a-n-d-e-d for Clarification?

(2a) Which Bible: AV, or, any "newer modern version" will suffice?
(2b) AV And God's Bible study Rules!

(3a) God's Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided! - Brief Introduction...
(3b) Three "Ages" Rightly Divided! = God's Timelines?

(4) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?
(5) GREAT Tribulation? or, tribulations/GREAT GRACE Departure!?

(6) Pre-TOJT GRACE Departure Expectations!?
(7) God's Heavenly UPlook For His Body!?

(8) Watching, Waiting, And Looking: For WHOM! or, For "signs"?
(9) God's Removal Of His Body Of CHRIST!:

(10) "Day Of CHRIST { Light }!" / Rightly Divided from {RDf}:
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . \ "The Day Of The LORD [ Darkness ]!"?

(11) Confidence in death/resurrection, Or, in living/glorification!?
(12) CHRIST Will Come "Without Warning!"?

(13) The Two "Trumps" Of God, In His "Age Of GRACE"?
(14) Meeting Him "In The Air" Up To Heaven! vs U-turn (theology?)
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Back down To earth?​

(15) Preparation For [ Israel's tribulation? OR: ]

The Judgment Seat Of Christ!? (1 Corinthians 3:8-15 AV)

(16) Post Departure Deception Question?
+
Note: any of the sections above are always open for discussion if you wish, just 'ask'...
+
Conclusion = Part 17:

​
"Wherefore Comfort one another With These Words!" (1 Thessalonians 4:18 AV)

Amen.

----------------------------

And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.
 
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