The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

vassal said:

You confuse two things God Himself separated.

The Ten Commandments are NOT “the law of Moses.”
God calls the Ten Commandments the covenant.
The rest is explicitly called the law of Moses, given later and added for a reason.

Let God speak!

First, what God Himself calls the covenant:

(Exodus 34:28, KJV)
“…and he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”

That settles it.!
God did not call sacrifices, rituals, or ordinances “the covenant.”
He called the Ten Commandments the covenant.

Now look carefully at this:

(Deuteronomy 5:22, KJV)
“These words the LORD spake unto all your assembly in the mount… and he added no more. And he wrote them in two tables of stone, and delivered them unto me.”

Added no more.
No rituals. No sacrifices. No ceremonies.

Now comes what you keep ignoring.

(Malachi 4:4, KJV)
“Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.”

So Scripture itself separates:
• The covenant God spoke and wrote
• The law of Moses with statutes and judgments

They are not the same thing.

Now to Gentiles.

You claim Gentiles had no knowledge of God, no law, no commandments. That is false.

(Romans 2:14–15, KJV)
“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law… Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness…”

Gentiles were not under the Sinai covenant administration, true.
But they were never outside God’s moral law.

That law existed before Sinai.

(Genesis 26:5, KJV)
“Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.”

No Sinai yet.
No Moses yet.
Yet commandments, statutes, and laws already existed.

Sin existed before Sinai, and sin is defined by the commandments.

(1 John 3:4, KJV)
“Sin is the transgression of the law.”

You cannot have sin without law.

Gentiles were judged for sin long before Moses.

(Romans 1:18–20, KJV)
“…they are without excuse.”

Without excuse means accountable.

Now here is what completely destroys your “legal point.”

The law of Moses was added later.

(Galatians 3:19, KJV)
“Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions…”

Added to what?
To something already existing.

That something is the covenant commandments.

And Jesus confirms exactly where judgment comes from.

(John 12:48, KJV)
“The word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”

Not Moses.
Not rituals.
Not ceremonies.

His words.

And what does Jesus teach?

(Matthew 19:17, KJV)
“…if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.”

That is not Sinai ritual law.
That is God’s eternal covenant standard.

So no, this is not a “powerful legal point.”
It is a misunderstanding built on ignoring what God Himself named, separated, and wrote.

The Ten Commandments are God’s covenant.
The law of Moses was added later.
Gentiles were always accountable to God’s moral law.
And Jesus will judge by His words, not by your categories.

Follow Jesus.
Listen to His voice.
Everything else is noise.

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I have an issue with what you wrote.

Why did you quote from Exodus 34?
Let God speak!
First, what God Himself calls the covenant:
(Exodus 34:28, KJV)
“…and he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.”
That settles it.!

If you had quoted the original covenant based on the spoken words of God at Mt Sinai which
includes the ordinances. Shown below.

Exodus 24:7-8
Then he took the book of the covenant and read it in the hearing of the people; and they said,
“All that the Lord has spoken we will do, and we will be obedient!” So Moses took the blood and
sprinkled it on the people, and said, “Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made
with you in accordance with all these words.”

The ten commandments are not written with the finger of God in Exodus 24.

You unfortunately said, "Let God speak!"

That's exactly what Exodus 24 is about; the spoken commands given by the Lord.

How can you say "that settles it !" when you flew past the covenant in Exodus 24?

Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has made with you in accordance with all these words

HigherGospel said:

Once a person is born again, God has ordained that they walk in good works which is what being led by the Holy Spirit does thru a born again believer.

Those walking in bad works disqualify themselves from salvation because they are refusing to be led by the Spirit

Only those led by the Spirit are the sons of God (Romans 8:14)

Those claiming we can live after the flesh (sin) and still be saved are sadly speaking in behalf of their father the old devil and are being used by him to deceive people in to departing from the Lord.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we deny Him, He also will deny us

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.






Those boasting in Jesus Christ are the ones doing good works as the Holy Spirit is leading them to do.

Romans 8:13
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
(NOT in our own strength - see Philippians 4:13)

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You misunderstand what I am saying.

The only way you can ever be saved is by the atonement, the reconciliation, that Jesus accomplished
for us.

Now there is a very long pause as we absorb the full eternal power of the death and resurrection
of Jesus Christ.

When you are in Christ and have received the Holy Spirit, the seal of your salvation.

Having been saved because we believed the gospel. Then we start the Christian walk.

The Christian walk is bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit and not our own fruit of the flesh.

We seek at all times to love (in the Spirit) those other Christians that surround us.

Undergrace1 said:

As a minister of fifty years stated:
''If we all followed after the Holy Spirit every minute of our lives we would never commit sin, the reality of which escapes us all''

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It did not escape Jesus. And we have many promises in the word that we can and should not sin.

Is it possible to live without sinning?
Regardless of our past failings and faults
I know it is. Jesus did.
Is the life that Jesus lived impossible for us to live?

If everyone keeps telling you, "you can't, it's impossible," no can really overcome" ....
Could this be the reason why so many Christians are living weak, defeated lives.

There is no question that modern theology has been teaching millions that no one can really live without sinning. This is a very comfortable doctrine for the flesh, but completely foreign to what the Bible teaches.

Being relaxed about sin is exactly what the devil wants.

Sin and righteousness can not coexist.

Not half saved from sin.... saved to the uttermost.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

More then conquerors.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Always causes us to triumph.
2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

The fullness of God ...to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think.
Eph 3:19-20
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

All power comes from God we just need the faith..

Inquisitor said:

The only way you can ever be saved is by the atonement, the reconciliation, that Jesus accomplished
for us.

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And according to God's Word the only way we can REMAIN SAVED is by being led by the Holy Spirit which is walking in good works.

Those claiming otherwise are saying they can deny the leading of the Holy Spirit and still be saved which is in error.

Inquisitor said:

When you are in Christ and have received the Holy Spirit, the seal of your salvation.

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So Christians can live after the flesh (sin) and still be saved, got it.

That's doctrines of demons, aka the so called once saved always saved heresy

It's not biblical.

Inquisitor said:

The Christian walk is bearing the fruit of the Holy Spirit and not our own fruit of the flesh.

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Being led by the Holy Spirit is not baring the fruit of the flesh

HigherGospel said:

And according to God's Word the only way we can REMAIN SAVED is by being led by the Holy Spirit which is walking in good works.

Those claiming otherwise are saying they can deny the leading of the Holy Spirit and still be saved which is in error.

So Christians can live after the flesh (sin) and still be saved, got it.

That's doctrines of demons, aka the so called once saved always saved heresy

It's not biblical.

Being led by the Holy Spirit is not baring the fruit of the flesh

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You still do not understand what I said.

I never said a Christian can live in the flesh and be saved, Galatians 5:19-21. States that we cannot have
the deeds of the flesh and be saved. We must live a spiritual life in Christ.

I am isolating the simple gospel (Romans 10) from the pathetic works that Christians accomplish.

So everyone understands the sole reason for our salvation.

Once that task is accomplished we move onto the Christian life.

Your endurance of that faith in Jesus is not the reason for your salvation.

No work you could ever accomplish matters in the slightest when it comes to the free gift
of salvation.

TMS said:

It did not escape Jesus. And we have many promises in the word that we can and should not sin.

Is it possible to live without sinning?
Regardless of our past failings and faults
I know it is. Jesus did.
Is the life that Jesus lived impossible for us to live?

If everyone keeps telling you, "you can't, it's impossible," no can really overcome" ....
Could this be the reason why so many Christians are living weak, defeated lives.

There is no question that modern theology has been teaching millions that no one can really live without sinning. This is a very comfortable doctrine for the flesh, but completely foreign to what the Bible teaches.

Being relaxed about sin is exactly what the devil wants.

Sin and righteousness can not coexist.

Not half saved from sin.... saved to the uttermost.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.

More then conquerors.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Always causes us to triumph.
2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place.

The fullness of God ...to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think.
Eph 3:19-20
19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God. 20 Now unto him that is able to do exceeding abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the power that worketh in us,

All power comes from God we just need the faith..

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I guess no one told the Apostle John it was possible to live without sinning. Would you say he just lived a life of wilfull deliberate sin, or, do you believe you can live a holier life than he?
If we(John includes himself in the we) claim(present tense) to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John 1:8
Those who claim they can live without sinning, have no conviction of where the bar is set not to commit sin according to the standard the law sets. Im afraid, they just make empty statements, due to ignorance
BTW
The bible speaks of sin in two different ways, that needs to be understood to be enlightened concerning scriptural verses on the issue!
Who live weak, defeated lives? Do I really need to tell you once more what I have witnessed amongst people who keep insisting ''You must obey the TC''
Just making that statement does not mean the person making it is leading a holy life does it. Im sure the pharisees of Jesus day constantly reitterated it.
Who is relaxed about sin? Well people were in the church I went to on a Saturday to please a friend!
Well as you commit sin, going by your statement do you hav e no righteousness?
It is easy to make ''pat statements that are not your reality, but it is not advisable to do so, and that is taken from the bible!
I will leave you once again with this. In my experience, you should not be preaching what you are to people who believe they have no righteousness before God of obeying the law, and believing Jesus died for all their sins. You should be preaching it to those who insist you must obey the TC

Inquisitor said:

So why did the traditional church bind everyone to the law of Moses?

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I can't even

Undergrace1 said:

I guess no one told the Apostle John it was possible to live without sinning. Would you say he just lived a life of wilfull deliberate sin, or, do you believe you can live a holier life than he?
If we(John includes himself in the we) claim(present tense) to be without sin we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us 1John 1:8
Those who claim they can live without sinning, have no conviction of where the bar is set not to commit sin according to the standard the law sets. Im afraid, they just make empty statements, due to ignorance

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1Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I never claim to have no sin.
my righteousness is as filthy rages.
I only claim the words of God.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ,

In Christ we can have victory.
Do you believe this simple fact.
Victory through Christ.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I have not said I have never sinned or that i will never sin. I am saying the word promises that we can overcome sin in Christ. My experience or any one elses does not change the fact. The word does not lie and it states that we can have victory through Christ.

TMS said:

1Jn 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
I never claim to have no sin.
my righteousness is as filthy rages.
I only claim the words of God.
Rom 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. 2Co 2:14 Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ,

In Christ we can have victory.
Do you believe this simple fact.
Victory through Christ.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

I have not said I have never sinned or that i will never sin. I am saying the word promises that we can overcome sin in Christ. My experience or any one elses does not change the fact. The word does not lie and it states that we can have victory through Christ.

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You didnt say you believed you could attain to not committing sin as Christ didn't and he is our role model?
Concerning confessing sin. I can only speak for myself, as surely as night follows day I will always tell God I am sorry for my mistakes/imperfections/sin. I couldn't live with the burden of not doing so, I am always too grieved at me folly
In truth what matters is this. Do you in your heart wish you never committed sin, do you feel wretched about it? That is actually proof you are saved. As opposed to a person who didn't care.
If you asked nearly all christians if you had to be sinless to be saved they would respond ''No'' for they know they are not without sin 1John1:8
However, if you asked nearly all christians if you could live a wilfull lifestyle of sin and be saved, they would also respond ''No'' 1John3:9/Rom6:16
Yes indeed, in Christ you have victory, and are more than conquerors, but not unto sinless perfection. And not one of us perfectly follow biblical teaching alas, we all make mistakes
As David said:
Do not bring your servant into judgement for no one living is(truly) righteous before you Psalms143:2

Without looking at anyone
We have all failed except for Jesus.

Jesus is the only example worth looking at..

By God's power, by the Holy Spirit, by the Almighty means that God has promised us, CAN WE HAVE VICTORY OVER SIN?

Everyone is struggling with different sins and I'm not saying it will be a magic transformation that makes all your problems dissappear. Sanctification is a process by which we are molded into the image of God. But can Jesus transform us into His image if we believe, and surrender ourselves to His leading?

1Co 10:12-13
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

TMS said:

1Co 10:12-13
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. 13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

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As you quoted from Corinthians. Paul referred to the Corinthians as '''The church of the living God in Corinth'' I'm sure you would agree, that church was far from being without sin. They were to use Paul's words ''carnal''
When we quote scripture, we must always remember none of us perfectly follow it
I was raised in a church on a Sunday. In that church the letter of certain scriptures was literalistically and inflexibly taught, and it was inferred we must fully follow it.
Just my opinion, but it is better to speak of where people are actually at, not where the can be if they perfectly follow the manual so to speak. And Im not referring to you personally in saying that.

I know the way this works, I grew up with it. People believe if they do not smoke, drink alcohol, swear, physically have sex outside of marriage, speak politely, read their bible and pray, tithe their money, and turn up for church each week they are living a life acceptable to God. The pharisees of Jesus day would have passed those tests with flying colours
So where did they go wrong? They preached the letter of certain scripture according to the law inflexibly and insisted the people must nigh on perfectly obey it, and they gave the impression they were fully practising what they insisted of the people, which we know they did not(Matt23). But as Jesus said, they ignored in the process the more import matters of the law, justice, mercy and faithfulness. And by their legalistic and inflexible approach they ignored the love of God(Luke11:42) they hung their hope of Heaven on Moses(John5:45) obeying the law, and in the process ignored God's unfailing love. And by not practising what they preached they ignored the second greatest commandment to.
What was the result to the people of their attitude?
Jesus said:
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to set the oppressed free, Luke4:18

Not much point in just inflexibly preaching a high standard of acceptance if the unfailing love of God is not being preached.
What loving parent would threaten to throw a child out of the house unless they performed nigh on perfect according to their rules?
Yet some end up thinking that is how God treats his children

Undergrace1 said:

Not much point in just inflexibly preaching a high standard of acceptance if the unfailing love of God is not being preached.
What loving parent would threaten to throw a child out of the house unless they performed nigh on perfect according to their rules?
Yet some end up thinking that is how God treats his children

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God is perfect.

He is merciful and loving kind and forgiving. But when people only see this side of God they fail to understand the justice of God..

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

People do have the wrong understanding of God, (mostly because of the false doctrine of hell and eternal punishment).
But God is perfectly Just and justice will be served. Those that love Jesus and confess their sins will be pardoned by the blood of Jesus but those that are not sorry and do not repent will pay the debt themselves.

Because the law can not be changed or removed, Jesus needed to pay the debt for us. If the law could be removed then Jesus did not need to die. Remove the law and no body would be in debt anymore.

Inward vs outward obedience is for God to Judge not us. Hopefully we can learn the difference from the past and give our whole heart to Jesus.

TMS said:

God is perfect.

He is merciful and loving kind and forgiving. But when people only see this side of God they fail to understand the justice of God..

Exo 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

People do have the wrong understanding of God, (mostly because of the false doctrine of hell and eternal punishment).
But God is perfectly Just and justice will be served. Those that love Jesus and confess their sins will be pardoned by the blood of Jesus but those that are not sorry and do not repent will pay the debt themselves.

Because the law can not be changed or removed, Jesus needed to pay the debt for us. If the law could be removed then Jesus did not need to die. Remove the law and no body would be in debt anymore.

Inward vs outward obedience is for God to Judge not us. Hopefully we can learn the difference from the past and give our whole heart to Jesus.

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But you still have an external law, in the sense we all naturally understand law to mean

The law comes in two parts, what is written in the law and the penalty for transgression. That type of law has been abolished for the believer, Jesus paid the penalty of our transgression. But what is written in applicable law is holy, just and good(Rom7:12), that got transferred from an external law and placed in the hearts and minds of believers internally. But it is not there as a ‘’law’ we rationalise law to mean. It simply means, in a believers mind they instnctively know God does not want them to steal, murder, commit adultery, take his name in vain etc, and in their hearts(the flesh is another matter) they do not want to do those things for that is where what was written in the law now is. You should not even think of it as ‘’law’’ it is just part of your spiritual dna in Christ. You cannot hide from it or be in ignorance of it. Every day, without thinking about any ‘’law’’ as such I know how God wants me to live my life in my mind, and in my heart I want to live that way

Its all about a loving relationship with God through Christ.

You only get a saviour from sin because what was once written in law is now in your heart and mind, note the order of which comes first in the covenant. You cannot have an intimate loving relationship with God through Christ when you just relate law to being what we all naturally understand it tro mean, that has gone:

Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more. The old covenant has gone, the new has come. And what God has placed in your heart and mind is a far, far more reliable witness than an external law ever will be. The Holy Spirit dwells in you, you are a new creation

People who have the fulness of the Spirit in them, a living relationship with God through Christ, and have the fulness in their heart and mind of how God wants them to live, cannot go around casually transgressing what is in their hearts and minds without conscience, that is IMPOSSIBLE

Only those who have an old covenant type mindset can do that, because they are still looking to an external law. The Holy Spirit, who is the convictor of sin, cannot work in their lives as He should be able to

TMS said:

Inward vs outward obedience is for God to Judge not us. Hopefully we can learn the difference from the past and give our whole heart to Jesus.

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But it is for the individual to know. And I knew when I first got saved, sin is sin whether it is committed outwardly or inwardly. And the TC covers internal sin

Undergrace1 said:

You quoted Rom ch2 more than once. What law must be obeyed to show you have justifying faith?
Or is there none in your view?

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Never mentioned obedience.
What does Romans 10:6-9 say?
It says the word is in our heart and in our mouth and that is the word of faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul quoted Deut 30:10-14 there in Romans 10.

Why?

And what does Deut 30:10-14 say?

And what tense, present, past or future is it being spoken?

Qt said:

Never mentioned obedience.
What does Romans 10:6-9 say?
It says the word is in our heart and in our mouth and that is the word of faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believeth unto (into) righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Paul quoted Deut 30:10-14 there in Romans 10.

Why?

And what does Deut 30:10-14 say?

And what tense, present, past or future is it being spoken?

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Can you answer the question please in relation to your continued quoting of rom ch2. Which law is a person to obey to prove they have justifying faith or is there none?

A person believes they MUST obey the TC, if they do not, they prove they have no righteousness before God. Transgress one you transgress them all

It won’t be that hard for them not to murder, steal, commit the physical act of adultery, not take the Lord’s name in vain, build a golden calf and worship it etc. But what do they do where the tenth commandment is concerned? For this commandment relates to what goes on, on the inside of man, their thoughts/desires, no outward act is required to transgress it.

Well if a person truly in their heart believes the TC as one whole MUST be obeyed to show they have saving faith, they will feel very bad about what goes on, on the inside of them, they can do nothing else. Sin is the transgression of the law, they will be conscious of their sin internally, and they will be greatly worried about it, for you cannot hide from what is written in law placed in your most inward parts. Saving faith requires obedience to all of the TC. At this point, and this is biblical, sin on the inside will increase. What does a person do who believes they MUST obey the TC to prove they truly are saved? There is only two options, either they give up with the faith crushed by their inability to obey the letter that kills, or they become hardnosed, convincing themselves that what goes on, on the inside of man is trivial, unimportant. If they take that option, when they insist others MUST obey the TC, to transgress one is to transgress them all, they will be preaching what they cannot practice. Jesus reserved his harshest words for the religious who acted that way