Romans 10:17, a courtroom haearing?

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There is work and effort involved in fulfilling the precondition, pisteuo (a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender).The mistranslated words believe, believer, and believing can't fix that.

Faith is:
90% courage, 5% tenacity, and 5% everything else. Our burden is light, but it's still a burden. Our yoke is easy, but it's still a yoke.
In particular, your statement that "Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time" does not look to me like a state of rest. It looks to me like the security of salvation is dependent on properly executing "our busines".
 
This is a common tactic. Whenever I see something on the order of "Scripture says what I'm telling you it says, therefore if you disagree with me you don't believe the Scripture" then I know there is no need for further discussion.
This is literally the opposite of reality. I have given you the better approach many times, and your ears remain closed.

We're just looking at it from different perspectives.

You and I have been putting our understandings on the table to be tested by the other. When we do this, if you disagree with my understanding, that's ok but you need to replace it with a better understanding. You haven't done that, and I don't think it's possible you or anyone else can do that. And that's because my facts that support my understandings are solid, and can only be perfected by the Holy spirit itself.

I'm not doing this to win an discussion, I'm doing this for those the Lord puts in my path. Them and their households.

You and many others have been exposed to the truth in every way I can think of. It's time to make your decisions with that God given information in your mind. Fulfill it, or reject it. You won't be able to say you didn't know now.
 
In particular, your statement that "Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time" does not look to me like a state of rest. It looks to me like the security of salvation is dependent on properly executing "our busines".

And that's the lie. That my " believing" is being fulfilled at such a high level, that I don't need to respond or do anything.
 
In particular, your statement that "Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time" does not look to me like a state of rest. It looks to me like the security of salvation is dependent on properly executing "our busines".

Keep your eye on the ball new life in Christ. You are one of the lucky ones, one of a small group called out from among a larger group that are not called out. No doubt in my mind!

You just need to make sure your responding correctly. That correct response is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. Remember, genuine not perfect.
 
We're just looking at it from different perspectives.

You and I have been putting our understandings on the table to be tested by the other. When we do this, if you disagree with my understanding, that's ok but you need to replace it with a better understanding. You haven't done that, and I don't think it's possible you or anyone else can do that. And that's because my facts that support my understandings are solid, and can only be perfected by the Holy spirit itself.

I'm not doing this to win an discussion, I'm doing this for those the Lord puts in my path. Them and their households.

You and many others have been exposed to the truth in every way I can think of. It's time to make your decisions with that God given information in your mind. Fulfill it, or reject it. You won't be able to say you didn't know now.
I will just go back to one of my posts on another forum:

Your point of view runs the risk of misleading people. How does the Greek word "πιστεύω" mean something other than "believe" in any of these verses?
  • And when He had come into the house, the blind men came to Him. And Jesus said to them, “Do you believe (πιστεύω) that I am able to do this?” (Mt 9:28)
  • And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing (πιστεύω), you will receive. (Mt 21:22)
  • "The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe (πιστεύω) him?’ (Mt 21:25)
If "believe" is a sufficient translation in these simple uses of the word, why do you make it such a complicated thing in other circumstances?

Your "facts" are just assertions that the word means different things depending on whether it is in verb form, noun form, or adjectival form. This is just factually incorrect. Here is the definitive definition of the word-group...

πιστεύω, πίστις, πιστός, †​
I. Classical Usage.​
First attested of the words with πισ-τ- is the (verbal) adj. πιστός, with the privative ἄπιστος. It has the act. and pass. senses of “trusting” and “worthy of trust” (“reliable”).3 It bears only the latter sense in Hom., but, since ἄπιστος is used by him for “distrustful” (e.g., Od., 14, 150), it is evident that both meanings are original; they recur in the noun πίστις.​
1. πιστός. In lit. this first means a. “trusting” in Theogn., 283: ἀστῶν μηδενὶ πιστὸς ἐὼν πόδα τῶνδε πρόβαινε. In Aesch. Prom., 915–917; Pers., 52–55 it is used poetically of confidence in weapons or skill in weapons; of trust in men, Theogn. and also Soph. Oed. Col., 1031; Dio C., 37, 12, 1. Inasmuch as trust may be a duty, πιστός can come to have the nuance “obedient.” b. πιστός in the sense “trustworthy” is a word first used in the sphere of sacral law; ὅρκια are called πιστά (Hom. Il., 2, 124 etc.), also τεκμήρια (Aesch. Suppl., 53 etc.). The expression πιστὰ διδόναι καὶ λαμβάνειν denotes the conclusion of a treaty. τὰ πιστά is the reliability of those bound by the treaty, Aesch. Ag., 651; Xen. An., II, 4, 7, i.e., “fidelity”; cf. τὸ πιστόν in Thuc., I, 68, 1. Similarly πιστός (“trustworthy,” “faithful”) is used of those who stand in a contractual relation: the ἑταῖρος, φίλος, husband, μάρτυς, also the ἄγγελος, φύλαξ, δοῦλος etc., are all called πιστός, and the wife πιστή. But the meaning broadens out, so that (τὸ) πιστόν can denote “reliability” or “certainty” in general, and πιστός can be used for the quality of “fidelity.” In the lit. sense πιστός is not used of things; it is used only of men and of matters constituted or pursued by them. The constancy of things is denoted by βέβαιος, which, since it can also be used of persons and personal conduct (→ I, 600, 17 ff.), is partially synon. with πιστός. In particular a word (ἔπος, ῥῆμα, or λόγος) can be called πιστός, also the γλῶσσα, so that in philosophy the λόγος (Plat. Tim., 49b), the ὑπόθεσις (Plat. Phaed., 107b), or the ἀπόδειξις (Plat. Phaedr., 245c) is πιστός or πιστή, and πιστός can be combined with ἀποδεικτικός (Aristot. Rhet., II, 1, p. 1377b, 23).​
2. ἄπιστος. The same pattern is to be found in the use of ἄπιστος: a. “distrustful,” so in Hom. Od., 14, 150 etc. and frequently later, b. “unfaithful,” “unreliable.” The unreliability of relations as well as persons can be denoted by ἄπιστος, Thuc., I, 120, 4, esp. that of word or speech, Hdt., III, 80; Plat. Phaedr., 245c. Thus ἄπιστος can mean “untrustworthy.”​
3. πίστις. Along the lines of the use of πιστός, πίστις means a. (abstr.) “confidence,” “trust,” with a ref. in this sense to persons, relations (Thuc., I, 120, 5) and also things. In so far as it contains an element of uncertainty, trust can be contrasted with knowledge, Soph. Trach., 588–593 and expressly in Plat.19 Nevertheless, it can also mean “conviction” and (subj.) “certainty,” for δόξῃ μὲν ἕπεται πίστις, Aristot. An., III, 3, p. 428a, 18–20. Parmen. contrasts πίστις ἀληθής (Fr., 1, 30 [Diels7, I, 230, 12] “dependable truth” or “trust in what is real”) with βροτῶν δόξαι. In Resp., VI, 505 e Plato speaks of πίστις μόνιμος (“firm belief”), and in Tim., 37bc he refers to δόξαι and πίστεις, which are βέβαιοι and ἀληθεῖς though they have to be differentiated, of course, from νοῦς and ἐπιστήμη. Similarly, Plato contrasts πίστις ὀρθή and ἐπιστήμη in Resp., X, 601e. In many cases, however, πίστις is “firm conviction” without such distinctions. b. In acc. with the Gk. feel for language πίστις can denote not only the confidence one has but also the confidence one enjoys (cf. → II, 233, 39 ff. δόξα), i.e., “trustworthiness.” This is related to “reliability” (→ 175, 34; 176, 3), though there is a distinction. It is the same as the pass. πιστεύεσθαι. Plut. Pericl., 33, 2 (I, 170a) etc., v. also → n. 25. Stress is often laid on the fact that this πίστις is a higher endowment than wealth. In this sense πίστις is related to παραδοχή (Polyb., 1, 5, 5) and ἀποδοχή (Polyb., 1, 43, 4). c. Concretely πίστις means the “guarantee” which creates the possibility of trust, that which may be relied on, or the assurance of reliability, “assurance.” The first use here is in the sphere of sacral law; πίστις is often combined with ὅρκος, Hdt., IX, 92; Plat. Leg., III, 701c etc., and we find πίστεις (πίστιν) διδόναι and λαμβάνειν or δέχεσθαι. πίστις is the “oath of fidelity,” “the pledge of faithfulness,” “security.” This leads on the one side to the sense of “certainty,” “trustworthiness,”25 on the other to that of “means of proof,” “proof.” In particular πίστις denotes the reliability of persons, “faithfulness.” It belongs esp. to friendship (φιλία).​
4. πιστεύω. πιστεύω (only from the 7th cent.), derived from πιστός, means “to trust,” “to rely on.” Objects are contracts and oaths, Xen. An., III, 1, 29; V, 2, 9, also laws, Aeschin. Oratio in Ctesiphont., 1, then means of power, e.g., arms, Polyb., 5, 62, 6, or abstr. facts or probability, Plat. Resp., X, 603b, finally persons, in which case πιστεύειν can acquire the nuance “to obey.” The pass. πιστεύεσθαι means “to enjoy confidence.” Since words can be the obj. of πιστεύειν, it can also mean “to believe,” and in this sense it can have a personal obj. (dat.) or a material obj. (acc.).36 It can also be construed with περί, with acc. and inf.,38 or with a ὅτι clause, Plat. Gorg., 512e. It can also be abs., yet in such a way that an obj. is to be supplied.39 In the sense “to believe” πιστεύειν can also be used in the pass., Plat. Leg., I, 636d; Aristot. An., III, 3, p. 428b, 4. The personal obj. in the dat. can be the subj. in the pass.40 Later πιστεύειν often means “to confide in” (rare in Attic),42 so commonly in the pass.43​
5. ἀπιστέω. The private ἀπιστέω (from ἄπιστος) is not clearly attested in the sense “to be untrustworthy,” “unreliable”; it means “to be distrustful,” “unbelieving.” Its special ref. in this sense is to words,45 and it can mean “not to believe,” Epict. Diss., II, 22, 23; Plot. Enn., V, 8, 11, p. 246, 2 ff. The pass. can also be used thus, Xenoph. Hier., 4, 1 (→ n. 27). From this developed the sense “not to obey,”46 esp. with laws as obj., Soph. Ant., 219, 381 f., 655 f.​
6. ἀπιστία. This related noun means a. “unreliability,” “unfaithfulness,” Soph. Oed. Col., 611; Xen. An., II, 5, 21; III, 2, 4, hence also “untrustworthiness,” Hdt., I, 193; Plat. Phaed., 88d; b. “distrust,” “doubt.”​
7. πιστόω. Of other words in πιστ- only πιστόω need be mentioned with ref. to the NT.48 It means “to make someone a πιστός,” namely, a. one who is bound by an oath, contract, pledge, etc., and who may thus be relied on, Soph. Oed. Col., 650; Thuc., IV, 88; also pass. in this sense, Hom. Od., 15, 436; Eur. Iph. Aul., 66; in the mid. “to give reciprocal guarantees,” Hom. Il., 6, 233; 21, 286; Polyb., 1, 43, 5; 18, 22, 6, or b. “to make him one who trusts,” “to engage confidence,” Hom. Od., 21, 217 f.; Soph. Oed. Col., 1039.​
[Bultmann, R. (1964–). πιστεύω, πίστις, πιστός, πιστόω, ἄπιστος, ἀπιστέω, ἀπιστία, ὀλιγόπιστος, ὀλιγοπιστία. In G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 6, pp. 175–179). Eerdmans.]​

Like you said before, it is important to get this right. It would help you to pay attention to what is written in this article.
 
I will just go back to one of my posts on another forum:

Your point of view runs the risk of misleading people. How does the Greek word "πιστεύω" mean something other than "believe" in any of these verses?
  • And when He had come into the house, the blind men came to Him. And Jesus said to them, “Do you believe (πιστεύω) that I am able to do this?” (Mt 9:28)
  • And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing (πιστεύω), you will receive. (Mt 21:22)
  • "The baptism of John—where was it from? From heaven or from men?” And they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He will say to us, ‘Why then did you not believe (πιστεύω) him?’ (Mt 21:25)
If "believe" is a sufficient translation in these simple uses of the word, why do you make it such a complicated thing in other circumstances?

Your "facts" are just assertions that the word means different things depending on whether it is in verb form, noun form, or adjectival form. This is just factually incorrect. Here is the definitive definition of the word-group...

πιστεύω, πίστις, πιστός, †​
I. Classical Usage.​
First attested of the words with πισ-τ- is the (verbal) adj. πιστός, with the privative ἄπιστος. It has the act. and pass. senses of “trusting” and “worthy of trust” (“reliable”).3 It bears only the latter sense in Hom., but, since ἄπιστος is used by him for “distrustful” (e.g., Od., 14, 150), it is evident that both meanings are original; they recur in the noun πίστις.​
1. πιστός. In lit. this first means a. “trusting” in Theogn., 283: ἀστῶν μηδενὶ πιστὸς ἐὼν πόδα τῶνδε πρόβαινε. In Aesch. Prom., 915–917; Pers., 52–55 it is used poetically of confidence in weapons or skill in weapons; of trust in men, Theogn. and also Soph. Oed. Col., 1031; Dio C., 37, 12, 1. Inasmuch as trust may be a duty, πιστός can come to have the nuance “obedient.” b. πιστός in the sense “trustworthy” is a word first used in the sphere of sacral law; ὅρκια are called πιστά (Hom. Il., 2, 124 etc.), also τεκμήρια (Aesch. Suppl., 53 etc.). The expression πιστὰ διδόναι καὶ λαμβάνειν denotes the conclusion of a treaty. τὰ πιστά is the reliability of those bound by the treaty, Aesch. Ag., 651; Xen. An., II, 4, 7, i.e., “fidelity”; cf. τὸ πιστόν in Thuc., I, 68, 1. Similarly πιστός (“trustworthy,” “faithful”) is used of those who stand in a contractual relation: the ἑταῖρος, φίλος, husband, μάρτυς, also the ἄγγελος, φύλαξ, δοῦλος etc., are all called πιστός, and the wife πιστή. But the meaning broadens out, so that (τὸ) πιστόν can denote “reliability” or “certainty” in general, and πιστός can be used for the quality of “fidelity.” In the lit. sense πιστός is not used of things; it is used only of men and of matters constituted or pursued by them. The constancy of things is denoted by βέβαιος, which, since it can also be used of persons and personal conduct (→ I, 600, 17 ff.), is partially synon. with πιστός. In particular a word (ἔπος, ῥῆμα, or λόγος) can be called πιστός, also the γλῶσσα, so that in philosophy the λόγος (Plat. Tim., 49b), the ὑπόθεσις (Plat. Phaed., 107b), or the ἀπόδειξις (Plat. Phaedr., 245c) is πιστός or πιστή, and πιστός can be combined with ἀποδεικτικός (Aristot. Rhet., II, 1, p. 1377b, 23).​
2. ἄπιστος. The same pattern is to be found in the use of ἄπιστος: a. “distrustful,” so in Hom. Od., 14, 150 etc. and frequently later, b. “unfaithful,” “unreliable.” The unreliability of relations as well as persons can be denoted by ἄπιστος, Thuc., I, 120, 4, esp. that of word or speech, Hdt., III, 80; Plat. Phaedr., 245c. Thus ἄπιστος can mean “untrustworthy.”​
3. πίστις. Along the lines of the use of πιστός, πίστις means a. (abstr.) “confidence,” “trust,” with a ref. in this sense to persons, relations (Thuc., I, 120, 5) and also things. In so far as it contains an element of uncertainty, trust can be contrasted with knowledge, Soph. Trach., 588–593 and expressly in Plat.19 Nevertheless, it can also mean “conviction” and (subj.) “certainty,” for δόξῃ μὲν ἕπεται πίστις, Aristot. An., III, 3, p. 428a, 18–20. Parmen. contrasts πίστις ἀληθής (Fr., 1, 30 [Diels7, I, 230, 12] “dependable truth” or “trust in what is real”) with βροτῶν δόξαι. In Resp., VI, 505 e Plato speaks of πίστις μόνιμος (“firm belief”), and in Tim., 37bc he refers to δόξαι and πίστεις, which are βέβαιοι and ἀληθεῖς though they have to be differentiated, of course, from νοῦς and ἐπιστήμη. Similarly, Plato contrasts πίστις ὀρθή and ἐπιστήμη in Resp., X, 601e. In many cases, however, πίστις is “firm conviction” without such distinctions. b. In acc. with the Gk. feel for language πίστις can denote not only the confidence one has but also the confidence one enjoys (cf. → II, 233, 39 ff. δόξα), i.e., “trustworthiness.” This is related to “reliability” (→ 175, 34; 176, 3), though there is a distinction. It is the same as the pass. πιστεύεσθαι. Plut. Pericl., 33, 2 (I, 170a) etc., v. also → n. 25. Stress is often laid on the fact that this πίστις is a higher endowment than wealth. In this sense πίστις is related to παραδοχή (Polyb., 1, 5, 5) and ἀποδοχή (Polyb., 1, 43, 4). c. Concretely πίστις means the “guarantee” which creates the possibility of trust, that which may be relied on, or the assurance of reliability, “assurance.” The first use here is in the sphere of sacral law; πίστις is often combined with ὅρκος, Hdt., IX, 92; Plat. Leg., III, 701c etc., and we find πίστεις (πίστιν) διδόναι and λαμβάνειν or δέχεσθαι. πίστις is the “oath of fidelity,” “the pledge of faithfulness,” “security.” This leads on the one side to the sense of “certainty,” “trustworthiness,”25 on the other to that of “means of proof,” “proof.” In particular πίστις denotes the reliability of persons, “faithfulness.” It belongs esp. to friendship (φιλία).​
4. πιστεύω. πιστεύω (only from the 7th cent.), derived from πιστός, means “to trust,” “to rely on.” Objects are contracts and oaths, Xen. An., III, 1, 29; V, 2, 9, also laws, Aeschin. Oratio in Ctesiphont., 1, then means of power, e.g., arms, Polyb., 5, 62, 6, or abstr. facts or probability, Plat. Resp., X, 603b, finally persons, in which case πιστεύειν can acquire the nuance “to obey.” The pass. πιστεύεσθαι means “to enjoy confidence.” Since words can be the obj. of πιστεύειν, it can also mean “to believe,” and in this sense it can have a personal obj. (dat.) or a material obj. (acc.).36 It can also be construed with περί, with acc. and inf.,38 or with a ὅτι clause, Plat. Gorg., 512e. It can also be abs., yet in such a way that an obj. is to be supplied.39 In the sense “to believe” πιστεύειν can also be used in the pass., Plat. Leg., I, 636d; Aristot. An., III, 3, p. 428b, 4. The personal obj. in the dat. can be the subj. in the pass.40 Later πιστεύειν often means “to confide in” (rare in Attic),42 so commonly in the pass.43​
5. ἀπιστέω. The private ἀπιστέω (from ἄπιστος) is not clearly attested in the sense “to be untrustworthy,” “unreliable”; it means “to be distrustful,” “unbelieving.” Its special ref. in this sense is to words,45 and it can mean “not to believe,” Epict. Diss., II, 22, 23; Plot. Enn., V, 8, 11, p. 246, 2 ff. The pass. can also be used thus, Xenoph. Hier., 4, 1 (→ n. 27). From this developed the sense “not to obey,”46 esp. with laws as obj., Soph. Ant., 219, 381 f., 655 f.​
6. ἀπιστία. This related noun means a. “unreliability,” “unfaithfulness,” Soph. Oed. Col., 611; Xen. An., II, 5, 21; III, 2, 4, hence also “untrustworthiness,” Hdt., I, 193; Plat. Phaed., 88d; b. “distrust,” “doubt.”​
7. πιστόω. Of other words in πιστ- only πιστόω need be mentioned with ref. to the NT.48 It means “to make someone a πιστός,” namely, a. one who is bound by an oath, contract, pledge, etc., and who may thus be relied on, Soph. Oed. Col., 650; Thuc., IV, 88; also pass. in this sense, Hom. Od., 15, 436; Eur. Iph. Aul., 66; in the mid. “to give reciprocal guarantees,” Hom. Il., 6, 233; 21, 286; Polyb., 1, 43, 5; 18, 22, 6, or b. “to make him one who trusts,” “to engage confidence,” Hom. Od., 21, 217 f.; Soph. Oed. Col., 1039.​
[Bultmann, R. (1964–). πιστεύω, πίστις, πιστός, πιστόω, ἄπιστος, ἀπιστέω, ἀπιστία, ὀλιγόπιστος, ὀλιγοπιστία. In G. Kittel, G. W. Bromiley, & G. Friedrich (Eds.), Theological dictionary of the New Testament (electronic ed., Vol. 6, pp. 175–179). Eerdmans.]​

Like you said before, it is important to get this right. It would help you to pay attention to what is written in this article.

You'll find lots of support on the wide path if your looking for it.

It's been an honor and a privilege to bring this to your attention. I gave you all i had.
 
It's paradoxical. We can't "heed" Him. We heed Him when we fulfil the precondition of faith and faithing. As the result of fulfilling that precondition, He imputes a part of Himself, and that part in us heeds Him

We can't heed Him? We can't hear Him? We don't have a good record of what He said?
He did not simplify His whole teachings by saying "whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do you even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets" ?
And Paul did not explain again that "love is the fulfilling of the law" ?

Of course we can heed Him, because we do have good record of His word and the explanations from His apostles.

And all men everywhere are commanded to heed Him Acts 17:31-32
 
We can't heed Him? We can't hear Him? We don't have a good record of what He said?
He did not simplify His whole teachings by saying "whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do you even so to them, for this is the law and the prophets" ?
And Paul did not explain again that "love is the fulfilling of the law" ?

Of course we can heed Him, because we do have good record of His word and the explanations from His apostles.

And all men everywhere are commanded to heed Him Acts 17:31-32

I think we're talking about two different kinds of heeding.

The kind of heeding I'm referring to is Gods way of heeding. Where it's by the spirit of Christ, not ourselves. If it's by the spirit of Christ, the Father sees a continual heeding. If it's by a reaction to a command, it would be just a lucky moment that the Father sees as worthless.

If you don't see a difference, I would direct you to the rediscovering pisteuo thread.
 
The kind of heeding I'm referring to is Gods way of heeding.

I will raise them up a prophet... And it shall come to pass that whoever does not listen to Him will be destroyed... Deuteronomy 18:18-19

But God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved.

If a man keeps my teaching he shall never see death. John 8:51

When Christ speaks of believing the Father in John 5 it is Deuteronomy 18:18-19 that He is referring to.

When Paul said faith comes by hearing, it is actual hearing of a message that he is referring to, as the context in Romans 10 makes clear.
 
The kind of heeding I'm referring to is Gods way of heeding. Where it's by the spirit of Christ, not ourselves. If it's by the spirit of Christ, the Father sees a continual heeding. If it's by a reaction to a command, it would be just a lucky moment that the Father sees as worthless.

Utter confusing nonsense
 
Faith is a personal surrender to Him, and a life inspired by such surrender.
So, where do you draw the line in the sand and say that your personal surrender to Him and your life inspired by such surrender measures up and is sufficient so now the Lord will be able to save you? Who meets the standard based on your personal understanding of a "personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender?" Only elite Christians or all Christians including babes in Christ?
 
You'll find lots of support on the wide path if your looking for it.

It's been an honor and a privilege to bring this to your attention. I gave you all i had.
Just because a certain point of view is held by a tiny fraction of Christianity does not make it the correct point of view.
 
In particular, your statement that "Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time" does not look to me like a state of rest. It looks to me like the security of salvation is dependent on properly executing "our busines".

Yes, you got it!

If faith stops, everything stops.

In my understanding, the state of rest your highlighting is happening at the same time we are living our faith life. The same time we are continually surrendering ourselves to Him, God is doing His part. That includes a spiritual awakening that makes a huge impact. the grace deposit, a literal piece of Himself,. The Spirit of Christ, which has a huge impact on the faithers emotional and spiritual state. The mind of Christ, which i don't talk about. Words cannot explain what those gifted pieces of God really do to a person. But if i tried to isolate one word, i might be "restful". But that state of restfulness only wants to make us do more. When it first happens, naturally it impacts us so hard, we think we need to do something other than faithing to keep it. it will take years to learn that lesson. and thats followed by one lesson after another, until after a long time, mostly when the body can't keep up anymore, rest, finally rest.

This gets into that paradoxical state where two different things are happening at the same time.

keep seeking for the truth New life in Christ. I can tell by the way your asking the right questions your not going to stop until you get it. your heart is right for it.
 
Yes, you got it!

If faith stops, everything stops.

In my understanding, the state of rest your highlighting is happening at the same time we are living our faith life. The same time we are continually surrendering ourselves to Him, God is doing His part. That includes a spiritual awakening that makes a huge impact. the grace deposit, a literal piece of Himself,. The Spirit of Christ, which has a huge impact on the faithers emotional and spiritual state. The mind of Christ, which i don't talk about. Words cannot explain what those gifted pieces of God really do to a person. But if i tried to isolate one word, i might be "restful". But that state of restfulness only wants to make us do more. When it first happens, naturally it impacts us so hard, we think we need to do something other than faithing to keep it. it will take years to learn that lesson. and thats followed by one lesson after another, until after a long time, mostly when the body can't keep up anymore, rest, finally rest.

This gets into that paradoxical state where two different things are happening at the same time.

keep seeking for the truth New life in Christ. I can tell by the way your asking the right questions your not going to stop until you get it. your heart is right for it.
The problem, of course, is that when a person works hard to maintain his salvation, his works provide evidence that he may not resting in the finished work of Christ. People can't look at other people and definitively determine the status of their salvation based on observing their works because people can't see into other people's hearts. But God can. That's why the statement in Hebrews 4:10 that those who have entered His rest have ceased from their works is followed in verse 11 by an urgent plea for people to be dilligent to enter that rest. And verses 12 and 13 punctuate the need for dilligence because God can see every little detail of our lives including the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Nothing is hidden from His sight. He can see plainly whether a person is resing all his hope on Christ or if he is putting some of his hope in himself.

Therefore, when I say,

In particular, your statement that "Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time" does not look to me like a state of rest. It looks to me like the security of salvation is dependent on properly executing "our busines".​

I am not seeking wisdom, I am expressing concern. And the verses I reference are the best ones I know to address the concern if a problem exists. If no problem exists, then they just reinforce the decision to rest.
 
The problem, of course, is that when a person works hard to maintain his salvation, his works provide evidence that he may not resting in the finished work of Christ. People can't look at other people and definitively determine the status of their salvation based on observing their works because people can't see into other people's hearts. But God can. That's why the statement in Hebrews 4:10 that those who have entered His rest have ceased from their works is followed in verse 11 by an urgent plea for people to be dilligent to enter that rest. And verses 12 and 13 punctuate the need for dilligence because God can see every little detail of our lives including the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Nothing is hidden from His sight. He can see plainly whether a person is resing all his hope on Christ or if he is putting some of his hope in himself.

Therefore, when I say,

In particular, your statement that "Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time" does not look to me like a state of rest. It looks to me like the security of salvation is dependent on properly executing "our busines".​

I am not seeking wisdom, I am expressing concern. And the verses I reference are the best ones I know to address the concern if a problem exists. If no problem exists, then they just reinforce the decision to rest.

Our burden is light, but it's still a burden.
Our yoke is easy, but it's still a yoke.

Mt. 11:28-30.
 
The problem, of course, is that when a person works hard to maintain his salvation, his works provide evidence that he may not resting in the finished work of Christ. People can't look at other people and definitively determine the status of their salvation based on observing their works because people can't see into other people's hearts. But God can. That's why the statement in Hebrews 4:10 that those who have entered His rest have ceased from their works is followed in verse 11 by an urgent plea for people to be dilligent to enter that rest. And verses 12 and 13 punctuate the need for dilligence because God can see every little detail of our lives including the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Nothing is hidden from His sight. He can see plainly whether a person is resing all his hope on Christ or if he is putting some of his hope in himself.

Therefore, when I say,

In particular, your statement that "Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time" does not look to me like a state of rest. It looks to me like the security of salvation is dependent on properly executing "our busines".​

I am not seeking wisdom, I am expressing concern. And the verses I reference are the best ones I know to address the concern if a problem exists. If no problem exists, then they just reinforce the decision to rest.

The only tender that will spend in eternity is our Faith. Faith applied is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

If you can't produce in heaven, a surrendered life and decisions that supported that surrendered life, He will say, i never knew you. And that tender that Jesus provided to us by Grace through that faith and faithing will not be available to spend.
 
The problem, of course, is that when a person works hard to maintain his salvation, his works provide evidence that he may not resting in the finished work of Christ. People can't look at other people and definitively determine the status of their salvation based on observing their works because people can't see into other people's hearts. But God can. That's why the statement in Hebrews 4:10 that those who have entered His rest have ceased from their works is followed in verse 11 by an urgent plea for people to be dilligent to enter that rest. And verses 12 and 13 punctuate the need for dilligence because God can see every little detail of our lives including the thoughts and intents of our hearts. Nothing is hidden from His sight. He can see plainly whether a person is resing all his hope on Christ or if he is putting some of his hope in himself.

Therefore, when I say,

In particular, your statement that "Our busines is to keep faithing, keep surrendering ourselves to Him, all the time" does not look to me like a state of rest. It looks to me like the security of salvation is dependent on properly executing "our busines".​

I am not seeking wisdom, I am expressing concern. And the verses I reference are the best ones I know to address the concern if a problem exists. If no problem exists, then they just reinforce the decision to rest.

Something important you need to know.

This life of faith ( a continually surrendered life) has to be genuine. If we fulfill the precondition of saving faith with any expectations of something in return, even eternal life, that's not a surrender, that's a business deal, and will avail nothing.

That will be evident in the daily decisions we make that should support a genuinely surrendered life.
 
Something important you need to know.
I'm all ears.
This life of faith ( a continually surrendered life) has to be genuine.
That's what I said. God knows if a person's faith in Christ is genuine. That is why a person must be dilligent to rest from his works.
If we fulfill the precondition of saving faith with any expectations of something in return, even eternal life, that's not a surrender, that's a business deal, and will avail nothing.
Expectations must exist, "for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" (Heb 11:6). Nobody can come to God unless he believes that God gives rewards. And those rewards include "not perishing" and having "eternal life" (Jn 3:16). They also include "the forgiveness of sins" (Col 1:14). And certainly, when a person goes to Jesus for salvation, he can expect that "the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (Jn 6:37)
That will be evident in the daily decisions we make that should support a genuinely surrendered life.
If a person is precluded from having expectations of something in return when he first turns to Christ, it is inconsistent to say that he may develop said expectations based on the evidence of his daily decisions that support the genuinness of his surrender. As a result, this view of "faith" does not seem to provide any kind of "hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2, 3:7).
 
The only tender that will spend in eternity is our Faith. Faith applied is a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender.

If you can't produce in heaven, a surrendered life and decisions that supported that surrendered life, He will say, i never knew you. And that tender that Jesus provided to us by Grace through that faith and faithing will not be available to spend.
Let's talk about legal tender.

10 For he who has entered (past participle) His rest has himself also ceased (past tense) from his works as God did from His. (Heb 4:10)​

The evidence that a person has entered God's rest is that his works have ceased. The construction above places "entering His rest" before "ceasing from works". This is important because it implies that a person who has rested all his weight on Christ no longer has motivation to continue to work for their salvation.

11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. (Heb 4:10–11).​

These words contain the "legal tender". According to BDAG, the Greek word here for disobedience means "disobedience, in our literature always of disobedience toward God... with the connotation of disbelief in the Christian gospel". [Arndt, W., Danker, F. W., Bauer, W., & Gingrich, F. W. (2000). In A Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament and other early Christian literature (3rd ed., p. 99). University of Chicago Press.]

Our dilligence to accept the message of the gospel that Jesus sacrificed Himself for our sins and our trust that His sacrifice was sufficient payment for our own sins is the only legal tender that creates a restful heart that leads a person to stop working to secure their own salvation.
 
I'm all ears.That's what I said. God knows if a person's faith in Christ is genuine. That is why a person must be dilligent to rest from his works.Expectations must exist, "for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him" (Heb 11:6). Nobody can come to God unless he believes that God gives rewards. And those rewards include "not perishing" and having "eternal life" (Jn 3:16). They also include "the forgiveness of sins" (Col 1:14). And certainly, when a person goes to Jesus for salvation, he can expect that "the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out" (Jn 6:37)
If a person is precluded from having expectations of something in return when he first turns to Christ, it is inconsistent to say that he may develop said expectations based on the evidence of his daily decisions that support the genuinness of his surrender. As a result, this view of "faith" does not seem to provide any kind of "hope of eternal life" (Titus 1:2, 3:7).

Then reject it!
You do have to make a choice though.

If nothing is accomplished here, that choice you didn't have a month ago will be.