What does it mean to be Under the Law?

Soyeong said:

Please read post #17. It would be absurd to interpret that as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in the strength of sin, but rather that is the role of the law of sin. Likewise, a law that is the strength of sin is a law that is sinful, but Romans 7:7 says that the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is.


We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around. The way to be unified with God's Word made flesh is not by dying to God's Word, but by dying to a law that was hindering us from obey it. Likewise, the way to bear fruit for God is not by dying to His instructions for how to bear fruit for him but to a law that was hindering us from doing that.


The goal of the law is to teach us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23, John 17:3. In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as though righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own rather than pursuing it as though righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey, that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, in regard to what we are committing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God raised him from the dead for salvation, so nothing in this passage has anything to do with Jesus ending the Law of God, but just the opposite. It doesn't even make sense to think that God's Word made flesh ended God's Word.


To have a character trait means to be a doer of that trait, so for God to be righteous means that He is a doer of righteous works and it would be absurd to interpret those verses as saying that being a doer of righteous works is only for the unrighteousness. Those who who say that the being a doer of righteous works is only for the unrighteous in order to justify their freedom to be a doer of unrighteous works thereby become someone that the Law of God is for. In Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is the Law of God, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God are righteous even as they are righteous.


In Romans 3:27, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, in Galatians 3:10-12, he contrasted the Book of the Law with "works of the law", and in Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:10-12 he said that our faith upholds the Law of God in contrast with saying that "works of the law" are not of faith, so that phrase does not refer to the Law of God. Those who do not continue to do everything in the Law of God come under its curse, which is why all those who rely on works of the law instead come under that curse.


God wanted His children to repent and to return to obedience to His law all throughout the Bible and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message (Matthew 4:15-23), so it would be absurd to interpret those verses as warning that we will be cut off from Christ if we repent and believe the Gospel of Christ.


If you agree that we should refer from doing what God has revealed to be sin, then you should be in favor of obeying the Law of God.


Christ did not come with the Gospel message to stop repenting because the Law of God has ended now that he has come and we are now free to become doers of what it reveals to be wickedness, but rather he came as the promised seed to bless us by turning us from our wickedness (Acts 3:25-26).


It would be absurd to interpret that as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in being held captive to sin, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive (Romans 7:23).


A priesthood that is led by God's word made flesh does not involve doing something other than or contrary to God's Word.

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“Please read post #17. It would be absurd to interpret that as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in the strength of sin, “

“ Thou shall not covet “ is one of the rocks you assume are Gods law … is that what Paul’s talking about ?

“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ( there’s no question he’s talking about a ten commandment ) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

For without the law sin was dead.

And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:5-8, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your missing it . Don’t think the rocks are the lord look to Jesus and you’ll hear Gods word . Don’t look here

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, ( no wirstion what he’s talking about ) was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Israel couldn’t let go of the rocks either And it has this effect

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:

There’s no question what Paul’s talking about

“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, ( he’s talking about Israel who received the law ) have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everyone has to decide where to put thier faith . In a covenant made exclusively with ancient Israel engraved on rocks that haven’t been seen for a couple thousand years on earth which never saved even its mediator

or the gospel that promises eternal salvation to believers having absolutely no connection to a law that they died to already

“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

….Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But again some are looking at the veil of the ot so they can’t see it like Paul says there in 2 cor 3

Reddogs said:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Many look and say well this does away with Gods Law, that those who follow the Ten Commandments are 'legalistic'. That although they are 'under grace,' by walking in a path of obedience, that keeps 'the commandments' they are in danger of coming 'under law' again.

So is Paul saying that the Ten Commandments have any further claims upon the believer, that they no longer have to keep the Law. Well, Paul gives a answer to that as he knew that would be the question. So what does he say, lets look.

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Paul makes clear that this is not so we can sin, but that under grace, those who truly believe will not go into sin as he states 'God Forbid' to such a thought. So what is Paul talking about here in Romans, well we get a clue in his letter to Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

So what is Paul saying here, well obviously he is talking about the Jews versus the Gentiles, but notice he says a curious thing, 'being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ'. So what is Paul saying, well lets look directly at the words of Christ.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is clear, being under to law to Christ is beyond the level of the literal law, that it surpasses even what the Jews and their teachers thought it was and followed. The entire law, including both moral and ceremonial aspects, revealed by God, existed with a view to the coming of Christ at that point in history. The law was intended by God to keep before the minds of Israel and men everywhere that the real meaning and purpose of the law lay in the full and final revelation when Christ would come to this world. And what does Christ say, He says that ones righteousness would go beyond the law if one wanted to enter into eternal life. We see Christ laying it out to the rich young man.

Matthew 19:17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

So Christ begins with the standard that had been given, to keep the Commandments, and the young man lays claim to doing that 'All these things have I kept from my youth up' but notice what he says next, 'what lack I yet?'

Jesus says to go beyond the law, so surpass it and give all 'and come and follow me.' Christ wants us to obey out a of love for God and neighbor that goes above the literal words given in the law, and that we know, we cannot claim ignorance...
Acts 17:30-31
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And we will be judge by this law of love that we are given which is the literal law, 'being not without law to God', and the level of love that surpasses even that, 'but under the law to Christ.'...

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Thanks Reddogs, for your post about what it means to be under the law. In Revelation, there is a woman clothed with the sun. The sun is a picture of Christ in the Bible. The woman is a picture of the true believers who are saved. Being clothed with the sun means to be clothed with Christ. In other words, true believers do not have their own righteousness, but since Christ was completely righteous, he is able to clothe us with his righteousness. Our righteousness is as filthy rags, but he clothes us with his righteousness. In the Bible, the moon is a picture of the law of God. The woman who is clothed with Christ has the moon under her feet. In other words, the penalty of the law cannot condemn her, she is above that thanks to Christ who has gotten her the victory.

Pilgrimshope said:

“Please read post #17. It would be absurd to interpret that as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in the strength of sin, “

“ Thou shall not covet “ is one of the rocks you assume are Gods law … is that what Paul’s talking about ?

‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:5-8, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your missing it . Don’t think the rocks are the lord look to Jesus and you’ll hear Gods word . Don’t look here

Click to expand...

In Romans 5-8, Paul was contrasting the Law of God that is the good that he wanted to do with the law of sin that was causing him not to do that good that he wanted to, so please interact with the distinction rather than repeating the error of always interpreting him as referring to the Law of God. In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful but how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. For example, the Law of God reveals that it is sin to covet by commanding against it and that command causes coveting to decrease, however, the law of sin takes the opportunity through the Law of God to cause covetousness to increase. Sin would lie dead apart from the law of sin. In Romans 7:12-13, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that it was not that which is good that brought death to him but the law of sin working through the Law of God that brought death. The Law of God is not His instructions for how to bear fruit unto death but rather it is His instructions for how to bear fruit for Him. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit the gift of eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, so do you think that he was correct or do you think that the obeying the greatest two commandments is the way to bear fruit unto death?

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, ( no wirstion what he’s talking about ) was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Israel couldn’t let go of the rocks either And it has this effect

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:

There’s no question what Paul’s talking about

“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, ( he’s talking about Israel who received the law ) have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

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In Romans 9:30-10:4, the Israelites failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law. In Romans 10:5-8, Paul referred to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that the Law of God is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! The repeatedly says that the New Covenant involves following the Law of God, that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Law of God, and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing, so 2 Corinthians 3 should be understood in a way that is in accordance with the rest of the Bible rather than a way that contradicts it. The veil was prevented people from seeing that the goal of everything in the Bible is to teach us how to know Jesus and it is preventing you from seeing the same thing.

Everyone has to decide where to put thier faith . In a covenant made exclusively with ancient Israel engraved on rocks that haven’t been seen for a couple thousand years on earth which never saved even its mediator

or the gospel that promises eternal salvation to believers having absolutely no connection to a law that they died to already

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God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to trust in God is by obediently trusting in His instructions and it would be contradictory for someone to think that we should put our faith in God but not in His instructions or that we should put our faith in God’s Word made flesh but not in God’s Word. Changing the medium upon which the Law of God is written from stone tk our hearts does not change the content of what it instructs, so the command against coveting written on stone has the same content as the command against coveting written on our hearts. In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and the Law of God was how his audience knew what sin is (Romans 3:20), so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel message.

“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

….Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But again some are looking at the veil of the ot so they can’t see it like Paul says there in 2 cor 3

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We need to die to the law of sin in order to be free to obey the Law of God, not the other way around. By not being careful to discern which law Paul is speaking about you are interpreting him as saying that we should die to God’s gift of eternal life. Again, in Roman 8:4-7, Paul contrasted those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Law of God.

birdie said:

Thanks Reddogs, for your post about what it means to be under the law. In Revelation, there is a woman clothed with the sun. The sun is a picture of Christ in the Bible. The woman is a picture of the true believers who are saved. Being clothed with the sun means to be clothed with Christ. In other words, true believers do not have their own righteousness, but since Christ was completely righteous, he is able to clothe us with his righteousness. Our righteousness is as filthy rags, but he clothes us with his righteousness. In the Bible, the moon is a picture of the law of God. The woman who is clothed with Christ has the moon under her feet. In other words, the penalty of the law cannot condemn her, she is above that thanks to Christ who has gotten her the victory.

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Christ embodied the righteousness of God through His works by walking in obedience the Law of God, so the Law of God was never given as instructions for how to establish our own righteousness but as instructions for how to embody God’s righteousness. In Isaiah 64:6, it is not God speaking about how He views our obedience to Him, but rather it is people hyperbolically complaining about God not coming down and making His presence known. The reality is that God’s command are not filthy rags, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). The way that Christ clothes us in his righteousness is by teaching us to be doers of righteous works in obedience to God’s law.

Soyeong said:

In Romans 5-8, Paul was contrasting the Law of God that is the good that he wanted to do with the law of sin that was causing him not to do that good that he wanted to, so please interact with the distinction rather than repeating the error of always interpreting him as referring to the Law of God.

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Or, to put it more succinctly, "Interpret it my way and you'll see it my way".

No. He made his case clear with Scripture, and you haven't made yours because apparently you are blinded to the truth of Scripture.

The purpose of law is to define and expose sin. Think of it in this analogy - sin is disease, law is diagnosis, grace is treatment. You feel sick, you go to the hospital for a full array of elaborate exams, from biopsy and blood draw to CT scan and MRI, then you read the abnormal numbers and see the horrible lesion, would that heal you or perhaps make you sicker out of newfound anxiety? However, without it, disease can't be diagosed, and thus can't be treated correctly.

I think we can all agree that the core gospel message is in 1 Cor. 15:3 - "Christ died for our sins, according to the Scripture". But if you don't know exactly what "sin" - such an antiquated and offensive term - is, and what the "scripture" - OT in this context - says about it, then you won't know who Christ really is, what he really died for and what the significance it is. And this is why Christianity is largely reduced to "moralistic therapeutic deism".

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” (Rom. 7:7)

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:17-18)

RegisterNow said:

The purpose of law is to define and expose sin. Think of it in this analogy - sin is disease, law is diagnosis, grace is treatment. You feel sick, you go to the hospital for a full array of elaborate exams, from biopsy and blood draw to CT scan and MRI, then you read the abnormal numbers and see the horrible lesion, would that heal you or perhaps make you sicker out of newfound anxiety? However, without it, disease can't be diagosed, and thus can't be treated correctly.

I think we can all agree that the core gospel message is in 1 Cor. 15:3 - "Christ died for our sins, according to the Scripture". But if you don't know exactly what "sin" - such an antiquated and offensive term - is, and what the "scripture" - OT in this context - says about it, then you won't know who Christ really is, what he really died for and what the significance it is. And this is why Christianity is largely reduced to "moralistic therapeutic deism".

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” (Rom. 7:7)

Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. (Matt. 5:17-18)

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“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. “


“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus coming to israel was what was the fulfillment of thier covenant law and prophets it all led to Jesus coming …..just like the New Testament all leads to Jesus returning

He says he came to fulfill the law and prophets and nothing would change until it was fulfilled then he did that

“The purpose of law is to define and expose sin”

right . To make sin known “ adultery ….this is sin …. Don’t commit adultery ….anyone who commits adultery must surely be put to death by the others “

that’s exactly what the law is about the knowledge and imputation of sin.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul repeatedly says it and everything he says is rooted firmly in scripture

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers ( thou shalt not kill ) of fathers and murderers of mothers, ( honor thy mother and father )for manslayers, for whoremongers, ( thou shalt not commit adultery ) for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, ( thou shalt not lie ) for perjured persons, ( thou shalt not bear false witness ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then there’s the New Testament regarding remission of sins rather than imputation

Pilgrimshope said:

“Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. “


“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus coming to israel was what was the fulfillment of thier covenant law and prophets it all led to Jesus coming …..just like the New Testament all leads to Jesus returning

He says he came to fulfill the law and prophets and nothing would change until it was fulfilled then he did that

“The purpose of law is to define and expose sin”

right . To make sin known “ adultery ….this is sin …. Don’t commit adultery ….anyone who commits adultery must surely be put to death by the others “

that’s exactly what the law is about the knowledge and imputation of sin.

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul repeatedly says it and everything he says is rooted firmly in scripture

“For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them. But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:10-12‬ ‭KJV‬

“knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers ( thou shalt not kill ) of fathers and murderers of mothers, ( honor thy mother and father )for manslayers, for whoremongers, ( thou shalt not commit adultery ) for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, ( thou shalt not lie ) for perjured persons, ( thou shalt not bear false witness ) and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

then there’s the New Testament regarding remission of sins rather than imputation

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It doesn't have to be made so complicated. It's a logical sequence, that if there's no imputation of sin to begin with, there's no remission of sin either, and inevitably, the concept of sin is perverted into shame, poverty, inequality, social oppression, disease, environmental pollution, etc., then you get all kinds of radical sects coming up with their own Christs, their own narratives and their own (mis)interpretation of the Scripture.

Reddogs said:

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Many look and say well this does away with Gods Law, that those who follow the Ten Commandments are 'legalistic'. That although they are 'under grace,' by walking in a path of obedience, that keeps 'the commandments' they are in danger of coming 'under law' again.

So is Paul saying that the Ten Commandments have any further claims upon the believer, that they no longer have to keep the Law. Well, Paul gives a answer to that as he knew that would be the question. So what does he say, lets look.

Romans 6:15
What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Paul makes clear that this is not so we can sin, but that under grace, those who truly believe will not go into sin as he states 'God Forbid' to such a thought. So what is Paul talking about here in Romans, well we get a clue in his letter to Corinthians.

1 Corinthians 9:20-21
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.

So what is Paul saying here, well obviously he is talking about the Jews versus the Gentiles, but notice he says a curious thing, 'being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ'. So what is Paul saying, well lets look directly at the words of Christ.

Matthew 5:20
For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

This is clear, being under to law to Christ is beyond the level of the literal law, that it surpasses even what the Jews and their teachers thought it was and followed. The entire law, including both moral and ceremonial aspects, revealed by God, existed with a view to the coming of Christ at that point in history. The law was intended by God to keep before the minds of Israel and men everywhere that the real meaning and purpose of the law lay in the full and final revelation when Christ would come to this world. And what does Christ say, He says that ones righteousness would go beyond the law if one wanted to enter into eternal life. We see Christ laying it out to the rich young man.

Matthew 19:17
16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful: for he had great possessions.

So Christ begins with the standard that had been given, to keep the Commandments, and the young man lays claim to doing that 'All these things have I kept from my youth up' but notice what he says next, 'what lack I yet?'

Jesus says to go beyond the law, so surpass it and give all 'and come and follow me.' Christ wants us to obey out a of love for God and neighbor that goes above the literal words given in the law, and that we know, we cannot claim ignorance...
Acts 17:30-31
30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

And we will be judge by this law of love that we are given which is the literal law, 'being not without law to God', and the level of love that surpasses even that, 'but under the law to Christ.'...

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We are all, both Jews and Gentiles, under the law because of Adam and Eve's eating from the Tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge is our conscience, and we are all born with this law of conscience. The written law describes action which means what to do and not to do. Being under grace means being in a state of being filled with love for God first and all others as we love ourselves. 1 Cor 13 clearly states that it doesn't mattter what we do or don't do if our motivation is not love for God first and all others second. This is Christ's commandments which is a state of being achieved when Christ baptizes us in the name of the Holy Spirit which acts as a portal through which both Father and Son can enter our beings and fill us with this divine love for God first instead of love of self first. Under the law means do's and don'ts. Under grace means being in a state of being produced by God through the Holy Spirit. I'm in agreement with what you posted.

Pilgrimshope said:

“Please read post #17. It would be absurd to interpret that as referring to the Law of God as if Paul delighted in the strength of sin, “

“ Thou shall not covet “ is one of the rocks you assume are Gods law … is that what Paul’s talking about ?

“For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. ( there’s no question he’s talking about a ten commandment ) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence.

For without the law sin was dead.

And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:5-8, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

your missing it . Don’t think the rocks are the lord look to Jesus and you’ll hear Gods word . Don’t look here

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, ( no wirstion what he’s talking about ) was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Israel couldn’t let go of the rocks either And it has this effect

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:

There’s no question what Paul’s talking about

“For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, ( he’s talking about Israel who received the law ) have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth. For Moses describeth the righteousness which is of the law, That the man which doeth those things shall live by them.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:3-5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Everyone has to decide where to put thier faith . In a covenant made exclusively with ancient Israel engraved on rocks that haven’t been seen for a couple thousand years on earth which never saved even its mediator

or the gospel that promises eternal salvation to believers having absolutely no connection to a law that they died to already

“Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

….Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭7:1, 4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But again some are looking at the veil of the ot so they can’t see it like Paul says there in 2 cor 3

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Comment.

GWT 7 The ministry that brought death was inscribed on stone. Yet, it came with such glory that the people of Israel couldn't look at Moses' face. His face was shining with glory, even though that glory was fading.

When you want something to say what you want it to say, it will!

And the many want nothing to do with obeying God. “I am under “grace” it’s my get out of jail for free card! I am accepted just as I am!! No law to keep.

Verse 7, the 2 tables of Stone on which Christ wrote the Commandments only administered Death. Obey or die!

The Old Covenant ‘never” offered eternal life only death for transgressions.

Where as the New Covenant offers the indwelling of the HOLY Spirit and eternal life.

The spirit puts into a person the Divine Nature of God, thus the Torah becomes their nature – over a life time, not at once.

Paul in NOT saying the Old is bad, or the Law is bad, He says . 11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

Paul states the OLD is Glorious, with so much power it made his face shine.

8 Won't the ministry that brings the Spirit have even more glory? YES

I know “the Many” must turn away from the Old Testament, but it is all Jesus Christ and the 13 apostles had to teach from and Paul stated it has all that is needed for salvation.

The New does not end the Old, make it worthless,, GOD does not change!

memberofthebride said:

Comment.

GWT 7 The ministry that brought death was inscribed on stone. Yet, it came with such glory that the people of Israel couldn't look at Moses' face. His face was shining with glory, even though that glory was fading.

When you want something to say what you want it to say, it will!

And the many want nothing to do with obeying God. “I am under “grace” it’s my get out of jail for free card! I am accepted just as I am!! No law to keep.

Verse 7, the 2 tables of Stone on which Christ wrote the Commandments only administered Death. Obey or die!

The Old Covenant ‘never” offered eternal life only death for transgressions.

Where as the New Covenant offers the indwelling of the HOLY Spirit and eternal life.

The spirit puts into a person the Divine Nature of God, thus the Torah becomes their nature – over a life time, not at once.

Paul in NOT saying the Old is bad, or the Law is bad, He says . 11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

Paul states the OLD is Glorious, with so much power it made his face shine.

8 Won't the ministry that brings the Spirit have even more glory? YES

I know “the Many” must turn away from the Old Testament, but it is all Jesus Christ and the 13 apostles had to teach from and Paul stated it has all that is needed for salvation.

The New does not end the Old, make it worthless,, GOD does not change!

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If the OT was all that we needed, Jesus died in vain. There is no grace in the OT. Paul did not only have the OT. He knew the OT as well as anyone. He received revelation directly from Lord Jesus. And that revelation contradicts your false interpretations. Peter also rejects your "Christianism".

Acts 10, Berean Standard Bible
5But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” 6So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe. 8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

19It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.

The Law was given to lead us to Christ. You condemn vast numbers of believers as if you were their judge. You will be judged as you judge others. Unless you keep every aspect of the law to perfection, you have no hope. Sorry about that, but it's your choice.

Gideon300 said:

If the OT was all that we needed, Jesus died in vain. There is no grace in the OT.

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That doesn't follow. In Hebrews 11, it lists people who had saving faith in spite of having never read the NT, so that is not needed for salvation. Likewise, in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus affirmed that listening the Moses and the Prophets is enough. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teaching us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).

Acts 10, Berean Standard Bible
5But some believers from the party of the Pharisees stood up and declared, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to obey the law of Moses.” 6So the apostles and elders met to look into this matter.

7After much discussion, Peter got up and said to them, “Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you that the Gentiles would hear from my lips the message of the gospel and believe.

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In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel that Peter argued that Gentiles had heard and believed, so he was affirming that Gentiles should obey God's law in agreement with the Pharisees from among the believers.

8And God, who knows the heart, showed His approval by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as He did to us. 9He made no distinction between us and them, for He cleansed their hearts by faith.

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In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His law, which is accordance Gentiles receiving the Spirit and having their hearts cleansed, so again Peter was arguing in favor of Gentiles obeying God's law.

10Now then, why do you test God by placing on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11On the contrary, we believe it is through the grace of the Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are.”

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They ruled that Gentiles are saved by grace just as they are (Psalms 119:29-30), so the heavy burden that no one could bear was not God's law, but a means of salvation that is an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1.

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul refers to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So if Peter had been referring to God's law as being a burden that no one could bear, then he would have been denying the word of faith that we proclaim and would have been in direct disagreement with God. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so if Peter had been referring to God's law as being a burden that no one could bear, then he would have been denying that God's commandments are not burdensome and denying that Gentiles should love God. The Psalms are express an extremely positive view of obeying God's law such as Psalms 19:7-11, so the NT authors should not be interpret as expressing views that are incompatible with the truth of what they considered to be Scripture.

19It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not cause trouble for the Gentiles who are turning to God. 20Instead, we should write and tell them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals, and from blood.

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Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list for mature believers or it does not, so it would be contradictory to treat it as being an exhaustive list in order to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being a non-exhaustive list by taking the position that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow. It was not given as an exhaustive list for mature believers but as a list intended to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.

The Law was given to lead us to Christ. Unless you keep every aspect of the law to perfection, you have no hope. Sorry about that, but it's your choice.

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God's law leads us to Christ because its goal is to teach us how to know him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. Even if someone lived in perfect obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their salvation as the result because it was never given as a way of doing that, so that was never the goal of the law. If we need to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience. The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.

Soyeong said:

That doesn't follow. In Hebrews 11, it lists people who had saving faith in spite of having never read the NT, so that is not needed for salvation. Likewise, in the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus, Jesus affirmed that listening the Moses and the Prophets is enough. In Psalms 119:29-30, he wanted to put false ways far from him, for God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His law, and he chose the way of faith by setting it before him, so this has always been the one and only way of salvation by grace through faith. In Exodus 33:13, Moses wanted God to be gracious to him by teaching him to walk in His way that he and Israel might know Him, and in Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so the goal of the law is to graciously teaching us how to know God and Jesus, which is His gift of eternal life (John 17:3).


In Matthew 4:15-23, Jesus began his ministry with the Gospel message to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand, which was a light to the Gentiles, and God's law was how his audience knew what sin is, so repenting from our disobedience to it is a central part of the Gospel that Peter argued that Gentiles had heard and believed, so he was affirming that Gentiles should obey God's law in agreement with the Pharisees from among the believers.


In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the New Covenant involves God taking away our hearts of stone, giving us hearts of flesh, and sending His Spirit to lead us in obedience to His law, which is accordance Gentiles receiving the Spirit and having their hearts cleansed, so again Peter was arguing in favor of Gentiles obeying God's law.


They ruled that Gentiles are saved by grace just as they are (Psalms 119:29-30), so the heavy burden that no one could bear was not God's law, but a means of salvation that is an alternative to salvation by grace, namely salvation by circumcision that was proposed by the men from Judea in Acts 15:1.

In Romans 10:5-8, Paul refers to Deuteronomy 30 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to the righteousness that is by faith proclaiming that God's law is not too difficult for us to obey and that obedience to it brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So if Peter had been referring to God's law as being a burden that no one could bear, then he would have been denying the word of faith that we proclaim and would have been in direct disagreement with God. Likewise, in 1 John 5:3, to love God is to obey His commandments, which are not burdensome, so if Peter had been referring to God's law as being a burden that no one could bear, then he would have been denying that God's commandments are not burdensome and denying that Gentiles should love God. The Psalms are express an extremely positive view of obeying God's law such as Psalms 19:7-11, so the NT authors should not be interpret as expressing views that are incompatible with the truth of what they considered to be Scripture.


Either Acts 15:19-21 contains an exhaustive list for mature believers or it does not, so it would be contradictory to treat it as being an exhaustive list in order to limit which laws Gentiles should follow while also treating it as being a non-exhaustive list by taking the position that there are obviously other laws that Gentiles should follow. It was not given as an exhaustive list for mature believers but as a list intended to avoid making things too difficult for new believers, which they excused by saying that they would continue to learn about how to obey Moses by hearing him taught every Sabbath in the synagogues.


God's law leads us to Christ because its goal is to teach us how to know him, but it does not lead us to Christ so that we can then reject everything he taught and go back to being doers of what it reveals to be wickedness. Even if someone lived in perfect obedience to God's law, then they still would not earn their salvation as the result because it was never given as a way of doing that, so that was never the goal of the law. If we need to have perfect obedience for some strange reason, then repentance would have no value, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we do not need to have perfect obedience. The only reason why someone would need to have perfect obedience is if they are going to give themselves to pay for the sins of the world - the rest of us can thankfully have our sins forgiven.

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Oil and water do not mix. Neither do grace and Law. And that's what too many Christians seek to combine.

I'm not advocating a life of immorality or rebellion. I do say that the Law is a shadow of the reality that is in Christ. Many want to live in the shadows. I prefer the light.

Gideon300 said:

Oil and water do not mix. Neither do grace and Law. And that's what too many Christians seek to combine.

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I quoted verses where God is gracious to us by teaching us by teaching us to obey His law, so if you're not denying the truth of those verses, then please interact with them. Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done to earn our salvation, however, that was never the reason why God command works and there are other reasons for doing works in accordance with why God commanded them that are compatible with grace. The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it.

Again, in John 17:3, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was not speaking about the way to be good enough to earn eternal life, but about the way to experience the content of the gift of eternal life.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not requires to have first done those works in obedience to God's law in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.

I'm not advocating a life of immorality or rebellion. I do say that the Law is a shadow of the reality that is in Christ. Many want to live in the shadows. I prefer the light.

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If we are not under God's law, then we have the freedom to become doers of what it reveals to be immorality, but if we are not free to become doers of what it reveals to be immorality, then we are under it. God's law was given to teach us how to point to Christ and we should live in a way that points to him by following his example of obedience to it rather than a way that points away from him. God's law is light (Proverbs 6:23).

Soyeong said:

I quoted verses where God is gracious to us by teaching us by teaching us to obey His law, so if you're not denying the truth of those verses, then please interact with them. Grace is a gift and gifts can't be earned, so grace is incompatible with works insofar as they are done to earn our salvation, however, that was never the reason why God command works and there are other reasons for doing works in accordance with why God commanded them that are compatible with grace. The content of a gift can be the experience of doing something, such as giving someone the opportunity to experience driving a Ferrari, where the gift intrinsically requires them to do the work of driving it in order to have that experience, but where doing that work contributes nothing towards earning the opportunity to drive it.

Again, in John 17:3, the content of God's gift of eternal life is the experience of knowing Him and Jesus and the gift of God's law is His instructions for how to have that experience (Exodus 33:13, Matthew 7:23), not for how to earn eternal life. In Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that the way to inherit eternal life is by obeying the greatest two commandments, and something that we inherit is a gift, so he was not speaking about the way to be good enough to earn eternal life, but about the way to experience the content of the gift of eternal life.

In Titus 2:11-13, the content of our gift of salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so we are not requires to have first done those works in obedience to God's law in order to earn our salvation as the result and we are not required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to experience being a doer of those works is part of the content of His gift of salvation.


If we are not under God's law, then we have the freedom to become doers of what it reveals to be immorality, but if we are not free to become doers of what it reveals to be immorality, then we are under it. God's law was given to teach us how to point to Christ and we should live in a way that points to him by following his example of obedience to it rather than a way that points away from him. God's law is light (Proverbs 6:23).

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Obviously you have never read Galatians or Acts 10. Or Colossians.Do you accept only the gospels and OT as God's word?

Gideon300 said:

Obviously you have never read Galatians or Acts 10. Or Colossians.Do you accept only the gospels and OT as God's word?

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I have read those and I accept the truth of the entire Bible, though I do not think that it should be interpreted as speaking against following Christ's example of obedience to what God has commanded. In Deuteronomy 13, the way that God instructed to determine that someone is a false prophet who is not speaking for Him is if they speak against obeying what He has commanded, so it is either incorrect to interpret Paul as doing that or he was a false prophet, but either way followers of Christ should be followers of his example of obedience to what God has commanded.

RegisterNow said:

It doesn't have to be made so complicated. It's a logical sequence, that if there's no imputation of sin to begin with, there's no remission of sin either, and inevitably, the concept of sin is perverted into shame, poverty, inequality, social oppression, disease, environmental pollution, etc., then you get all kinds of radical sects coming up with their own Christs, their own narratives and their own (mis)interpretation of the Scripture.

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Yeah I prefer to learn what’s written and well explained in the bible though like see what you are saying here ?

“It's a logical sequence, that if there's no imputation of sin to begin with, there's no remission of sin either, and inevitably, the concept of sin is perverted into shame, poverty, inequality, social oppression, disease, environmental pollution,”…..

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38‬ ‭

“If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭1:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we just pretend when we sin god doesn’t recognize it as we are supposed to just ignore it and not recognize confess and repent as a necessity . It ignores way too much of the New Testament teachings about repentance and remission of sins…..

“and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we ignore our sin there’s no confession or repentance or remission which is what Christ provided for repentance and remission of sins in his name and so we won’t become those who “ never cease from sinning “ warned about in scripture .

memberofthebride said:

Comment.

GWT 7 The ministry that brought death was inscribed on stone. Yet, it came with such glory that the people of Israel couldn't look at Moses' face. His face was shining with glory, even though that glory was fading.

When you want something to say what you want it to say, it will!

And the many want nothing to do with obeying God. “I am under “grace” it’s my get out of jail for free card! I am accepted just as I am!! No law to keep.

Verse 7, the 2 tables of Stone on which Christ wrote the Commandments only administered Death. Obey or die!

The Old Covenant ‘never” offered eternal life only death for transgressions.

Where as the New Covenant offers the indwelling of the HOLY Spirit and eternal life.

The spirit puts into a person the Divine Nature of God, thus the Torah becomes their nature – over a life time, not at once.

Paul in NOT saying the Old is bad, or the Law is bad, He says . 11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious.

Paul states the OLD is Glorious, with so much power it made his face shine.

8 Won't the ministry that brings the Spirit have even more glory? YES

I know “the Many” must turn away from the Old Testament, but it is all Jesus Christ and the 13 apostles had to teach from and Paul stated it has all that is needed for salvation.

The New does not end the Old, make it worthless,, GOD does not change!

Click to expand...

GWT 7 The ministry that brought death was inscribed on stone. Yet, it came with such glory that the people of Israel couldn't look at Moses' face. His face was shining with glory, even though that glory was fading.

When you want something to say what you want it to say, it will! “


Thank you let’s see what the next verse says about that glory

“But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

because that’s what the ot said

“Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:”
‭‭Jeremiah‬ ‭31:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Some try to make the new covenant according to the one he made with israel from Sinai but it’s an error the new covenant is according to the covenant Jesus made with his word in the gospel , not ten rocks and not Moses word which glory was to be done away but they couldn’t see that ….

“and not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

but their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭3:13-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reason is some try to force the old covenant into the new it’s not the same covenant , mediator , preisthood , temple , promises , promised land ….. it has nothing to do with leading anyone across the Jordan or promised them a long blessed life he promised hardship and sorrow persecution across the earth … but eternal glory in everlasting life

ten rocks may guide people who are carnal but gods spirit leads Christian’s

The fault was not the giving of the law.
The fault was the people's attitude.

They could not keep it themselves.
They needed external help. But tried to do it themselves.

The law is perfect. God does not make mistakes.

The new covenant is better because Jesus will write the law on your heart if you allow Him.

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

You can not seperate the the law and the gospel.

The same perfect God gave both the law and the gospel.
The nature of God is at stake in this false distinction between the law and the gospel.

Those that believe downgrading the law preserves the freedom of the gospel do a great disservice to the God who is both the lawgiver and redeemer.

Both...