Israel and the present conflict

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ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
It sounds like the powers that be are afraid uncontrolled DNA testing will undermine Jewish ancestry. That's the only explanation for such a restrictive approach. They should be welcoming it to prove their ancestry, right?
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Yea and of course they are also afraid it will undermine the round earth, undermine the moon landing, and prove trump is one of the lizard people.

I am not even going to put one foot into the rabbit hole, I can see what it does to people.

Anyone can get a DNA test, but If or when Israel launch a policy that everyone has to have a DNA test, your biased response would do an about face in blind contradiction, and you will then say how wrong it is for Israel to step on peoples rights!


I hope I didnt offend to many mad hatters with my rhetorical remarks :LOL:
 
Clayman said:
Anyone can get a DNA test, but If or when Israel launch a policy that everyone has to have a DNA test, your biased response would do an about face in blind contradiction, and you will then say how wrong it is for Israel to step on peoples rights!
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No, I can't see that because I really don't care what they do.
 
Gideon300 said:
You can get DNA test kits and results via the internet. Israelis are free to travel. You make a big deal out of nothing.
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Dude, I'm not making a big deal out of anything. Somebody said something that I was curious about. Quit projecting your constantly making a big deal out of Israel onto me. Modern Israel's your obsession, not mine
 
Clayman said:
The ole I'm not racist I just hate Jews, so dont you dare play that racism card routine gets just as old.
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Clayman there is a possibility that I got the DNA thing wrong, and if I did I am sorry.
I don't hate anybody but I do hate apostate religion and think that too many false teachings have infiltrated Christian thinking from Rabbinic Judaism.
I still reserve the right to think critically about the subject.
Antisemitism exists, but we should not weaponize the accusation of it to stifle legitimate questions.
All of us have fallen short of the glory of God, and there is no good within any of our DNA.
That is why we need a savior.
Who do you think are God's chosen people, and for what reason?
 
Beekeeper said:
Clayman there is a possibility that I got the DNA thing wrong, and if I did I am sorry.
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And I in turn may have painted you with too broad a brush and am reminded we are all capable of being carried away with the wind of others.
I don't hate anybody but I do hate apostate religion and think that too many false teachings have infiltrated Christian thinking from Rabbinic Judaism.
I still reserve the right to think critically about the subject.
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Absolutely, just as I have the right to appreciate the starting point of Rabbinic Judaism which can hold certain truths and can be a hindrance or a blessing.

Antisemitism exists, but we should not weaponize the accusation of it to stifle legitimate questions.
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If someone weaponises it unnecessary hopefully someone will call it out, and likewise if someone says the holocaust was a good thing, hopefully people call it out for the blatant antisemitism that it is.
All of us have fallen short of the glory of God, and there is no good within any of our DNA.
That is why we need a savior.
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Amen and amen
Who do you think are God's chosen people, and for what reason?
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The quick answer is Believers, believers are Gods chosen people, God chose us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4
Those that accept/Believe Christ as their Lord and savior 1Pet ch 2 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but chosen by God.

For clarification that maybe your interested in, I see only one body of believers, one faith, and we are all joined together in Christ, old and new testament saints alike.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may have sojourned through the promised land but as strangers; they looked for the heavenly city, they had no real interest in the terrestrial promised land, and I guess like me, they thought of it like Eden; just a picture or a type of our heavenly kingdom.
 
Clayman said:
And I in turn may have painted you with too broad a brush and am reminded we are all capable of being carried away with the wind of others.
Absolutely, just as I have the right to appreciate the starting point of Rabbinic Judaism which can hold certain truths and can be a hindrance or a blessing.

If someone weaponises it unnecessary hopefully someone will call it out, and likewise if someone says the holocaust was a good thing, hopefully people call it out for the blatant antisemitism that it is.
Amen and amen


The quick answer is Believers, believers are Gods chosen people, God chose us in him before the foundation of the world, Eph 1:4
Those that accept/Believe Christ as their Lord and savior 1Pet ch 2 Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but chosen by God.

For clarification that maybe your interested in, I see only one body of believers, one faith, and we are all joined together in Christ, old and new testament saints alike.

Abraham, Isaac and Jacob may have sojourned through the promised land but as strangers; they looked for the heavenly city, they had no real interest in the terrestrial promised land, and I guess like me, they thought of it like Eden; just a picture or a type of our heavenly kingdom.
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I agree with all you have written there.
God's chosen people are all who chose Jesus.
I would add to that that Jesus is the king of the Jews, salvation is of the Jews (John 4:22) and that there will never be a better definition of a Jew than Jesus.
That also means that not believing in Jesus is outstandingly un-Jewish.
I do not accept that rabbinic Judaism defines Jews in so far as it originates from Gentile beliefs and practices.
Romans 2:28
 
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Beekeeper said:
I do not accept that rabbinic Judaism defines Jews in so far as it originates from Gentile beliefs and practices.
Romans 2:28
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If you feel like it could you elaborate on this please!

And agreed, I also see myself as a spiritual Jew or one inwardly, circumcised of the heart!

Yet Israel are the physical type, for example they were physically circumcised and are a picture of the believers who are spiritually circumcised, they were delivered/rescued out of Eygpt(the world) Israel the nation are set apart for the revelation of the Word of God. And Jesus is coming again to be revealed in person but this time in glory and judgment..

First through the prophets, the oral Word and written Word, and also in the person of Jesus Christ the Word of God. The motif is already in scripture of Israel being used for this purpose means one can see Israel used again through the witnesses of revelation through to the second advent?

But do you think the nation Israel are also chosen and set apart for God's good purpose? why or why not?

Oh and yeah not believing in Jesus is a un-Jewish thing to do, but consistent with how they act as a nation throughout Old Testament history.
 
Clayman said:
If you feel like it could you elaborate on this please!

And agreed, I also see myself as a spiritual Jew or one inwardly, circumcised of the heart!

Yet Israel are the physical type, for example they were physically circumcised and are a picture of the believers who are spiritually circumcised, they were delivered/rescued out of Eygpt(the world) Israel the nation are set apart for the revelation of the Word of God. And Jesus is coming again to be revealed in person but this time in glory and judgment..

First through the prophets, the oral Word and written Word, and also in the person of Jesus Christ the Word of God. The motif is already in scripture of Israel being used for this purpose means one can see Israel used again through the witnesses of revelation through to the second advent?

But do you think the nation Israel are also chosen and set apart for God's good purpose? why or why not?

Oh and yeah not believing in Jesus is a un-Jewish thing to do, but consistent with how they act as a nation throughout Old Testament history.
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Do you mean elaborate on why I think Rabbinic Judaism originates from Gentile beliefs and practices?
I can, though it could take us into an area of challenging each other.
That is ok here I guess.

Rabbinic Judaism these days has a lot of forms and not all of them are supportive of modern Israel.
A common thread in them all is the belief that Jesus is not the Messiah, and another should be found.
All as far as I know regard themselves as being the continuation of the faith of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Talmudic tradition is Babylonian in origin, and once was the spoken "tradition of the elders" rebuked by Jesus in Mark 7:7.
Most of the Talmud is pretty boring to read, but one of its books blaspheme Jesus throughout.
I do not wish to offend readers by quoting it, but I will link an English translation of it so you can get the Idea:
https://www.priory-of-sion.com/biblios/links/sefer.pdf
The tradition of the Kabbalah also has Gentile origin because it goes back to the Canaanite worship of Baal.
Judaism also uses the OT, but obscures Jesus from it in the interpretation.
All prophesies are put far into the future, so that any reference to Jesus is attributed to their coming messiah.
Second temple restoration prophesies are most often attributed to modern Israel, or the third temple from which the antichrist will rule.

As far as I can tell you and I recognize the faith of Abraham Isaac and Jacob as the true faith of God.
Through Jesus we are reconciled with God and become "joint heirs" (Romans 8:17), "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29).
As this is the true Jewish faith we are also joint heirs with all the faithful Jews from ancient times until now.
This would not be the case if we were to accept any apostate form of Judaism as a base for our faith.
We would be literally be accepting "another gospel" (Galatians 1:6) and "another Jesus" (2Corinthians 11:4)
The apostles took the threat of the false Judaistic teachers in Acts 15 very seriously for this reason.
You may think that the accusation of "another Jesus" sounds a little harsh for modern Christian-Zionism,
but when we look at how it is constructed, we not only see a shift of the Jewish foundations, but adoption of Judaistic interpretation of the OT, attributing many prophesies about Jesus to the "second coming" in total compatibility with the false third temple messiah.
 
Beekeeper said:
Do you mean elaborate on why I think Rabbinic Judaism originates from Gentile beliefs and practices?
I can, though it could take us into an area of challenging each other.
That is ok here I guess.

Rabbinic Judaism these days has a lot of forms and not all of them are supportive of modern Israel.
A common thread in them all is the belief that Jesus is not the Messiah, and another should be found.
All as far as I know regard themselves as being the continuation of the faith of Abraham Isaac and Jacob.
Talmudic tradition is Babylonian in origin, and once was the spoken "tradition of the elders" rebuked by Jesus in Mark 7:7.
Most of the Talmud is pretty boring to read, but one of its books blaspheme Jesus throughout.
I do not wish to offend readers by quoting it, but I will link an English translation of it so you can get the Idea:
https://www.priory-of-sion.com/biblios/links/sefer.pdf
The tradition of the Kabbalah also has Gentile origin because it goes back to the Canaanite worship of Baal.
Judaism also uses the OT, but obscures Jesus from it in the interpretation.
All prophesies are put far into the future, so that any reference to Jesus is attributed to their coming messiah.
Second temple restoration prophesies are most often attributed to modern Israel, or the third temple from which the antichrist will rule.

As far as I can tell you and I recognize the faith of Abraham Isaac and Jacob as the true faith of God.
Through Jesus we are reconciled with God and become "joint heirs" (Romans 8:17), "Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Galatians 3:29).
As this is the true Jewish faith we are also joint heirs with all the faithful Jews from ancient times until now.
This would not be the case if we were to accept any apostate form of Judaism as a base for our faith.
We would be literally be accepting "another gospel" (Galatians 1:6) and "another Jesus" (2Corinthians 11:4)
The apostles took the threat of the false Judaistic teachers in Acts 15 very seriously for this reason.
You may think that the accusation of "another Jesus" sounds a little harsh for modern Christian-Zionism,
but when we look at how it is constructed, we not only see a shift of the Jewish foundations, but adoption of Judaistic interpretation of the OT, attributing many prophesies about Jesus to the "second coming" in total compatibility with the false third temple messiah.
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Awesome, thanks, I like seeing where people come from and agree it could lead into areas of challenging each other...
Dont take this the wrong way but when I read what you write, or read between the lines I see a chip on your shoulder against Judaism. I mean I know they are rejecting my Lord and actually their Lord, and have inserted falsehoods and error. But I put all unbelief under the same umbrella.

Not saying you don't for I know you probably do.

And like you said there are lots off different off shoots, for Its a bit like when worldlings color all Christians with the Catholic brush and saying we have all adopted and follow their pagan practices.

I presume when you mention acts 15, you are talking for example about circumcism, Was that not part of true Judaism?

The apostles took the threat of the false Judaistic teachers in Acts 15 very seriously for this reason.
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To me these false Judaistic teachers also believed that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and was the Messiah?

Also are they not in a sort of transitional period, where they are still learning?

I love how we see most things in common but some things I know we will see different, I am going to presume you dont see a future 1000yr period where the nation of Israel will rule the world?

To me its like a self fulfilling prophecy, the fact the world opposes it brings it into fruition, I mean as soon as Jews were starting to migrate in numbers into Israel, the world were like hold on, people will think the unfulfilled part of the bible is starting to happen, and there is no way that is going to happen, cos God and His Word are not real, so the opposition began. I call it the Israel effect.

I think when God put in kingdoms like Babylon and Persia He had His reasons, and the Same with Israel, who am I to care or argue. If I was to be around in this period, I'd just try and be a Daniel or one of his friends.
 
Clayman said:
Awesome, thanks, I like seeing where people come from and agree it could lead into areas of challenging each other...
Dont take this the wrong way but when I read what you write, or read between the lines I see a chip on your shoulder against Judaism. I mean I know they are rejecting my Lord and actually their Lord, and have inserted falsehoods and error. But I put all unbelief under the same umbrella.

Not saying you don't for I know you probably do.

And like you said there are lots off different off shoots, for Its a bit like when worldlings color all Christians with the Catholic brush and saying we have all adopted and follow their pagan practices.

I presume when you mention acts 15, you are talking for example about circumcism, Was that not part of true Judaism?



To me these false Judaistic teachers also believed that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended into heaven and was the Messiah?

Also are they not in a sort of transitional period, where they are still learning?

I love how we see most things in common but some things I know we will see different, I am going to presume you dont see a future 1000yr period where the nation of Israel will rule the world?

To me its like a self fulfilling prophecy, the fact the world opposes it brings it into fruition, I mean as soon as Jews were starting to migrate in numbers into Israel, the world were like hold on, people will think the unfulfilled part of the bible is starting to happen, and there is no way that is going to happen, cos God and His Word are not real, so the opposition began. I call it the Israel effect.

I think when God put in kingdoms like Babylon and Persia He had His reasons, and the Same with Israel, who am I to care or argue. If I was to be around in this period, I'd just try and be a Daniel or one of his friends.
Click to expand...

I see unbelief in Jesus as under the same umbrella only in that it is all under the dominion of Satan.
There are particular forms of unbelief that would be more concerned about, not because I judge the condition of the unbeliever more terrible but because of the harm that they do to the testimony of Christ.
There are also forms of unbelief that I would have more personal reasons for having a "chip on the shoulder" about, and I do not think that is a bad thing in itself.
God made us all the way we are for a reason.
Atheism is a form that I particularly hate, not only for the grief that it has caused in the world but also because it is the particular prison cell that I was in before Jesus opened my understanding.
I did not intend my hatred of Judaism to be something you would need to read between the lines to find, I want it out in the open.
Judaism is an "it" not a person, and we are allowed to hate spiritual wickedness.
God hates it too.

You asked what I think about a future 1000 years when Israel will rule the world, and I think this is a period of time when Jesus, who is the King of Israel does reign.
Jesus is the king in the line of David but also the "image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" (Colossians 1:15), making Him also king of the whole world.
I think that His reign is happening now, and is described in Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
This reign will continue for an unknown time until Christ returns.
It is hard for the world to grasp that we are now being ruled by Jesus, because He is a servant king.
The carnal mind only recognizes bullies and the world does not know His voice, but the blessings and curses written in the book of Deuteronomy apply just as it did in the holy land regarding our faithfulness.
In this sense the whole world is now the holy land, as if the borders of old Israel has been expanded.
There is no part left that is not under the reign of the King of Israel, but as before He suffers the rebellion patiently until the time of judgement comes.
 
Beekeeper said:
I see unbelief in Jesus as under the same umbrella only in that it is all under the dominion of Satan.
There are particular forms of unbelief that would be more concerned about, not because I judge the condition of the unbeliever more terrible but because of the harm that they do to the testimony of Christ.
There are also forms of unbelief that I would have more personal reasons for having a "chip on the shoulder" about, and I do not think that is a bad thing in itself.
God made us all the way we are for a reason.
Atheism is a form that I particularly hate, not only for the grief that it has caused in the world but also because it is the particular prison cell that I was in before Jesus opened my understanding.
I did not intend my hatred of Judaism to be something you would need to read between the lines to find, I want it out in the open.
Judaism is an "it" not a person, and we are allowed to hate spiritual wickedness.
God hates it too.
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I see true Judaism as the Old testament covenant and law given by God to His people, Jesus is a Judaist in the fullest sense, and you and I are the results of Judaism that fully reveals Gods grace and mercy through the redemption of His Son.

You talked about the false Judaistic teachers in acts 15, whom to my understanding were teaching Circumcism for new Converts and that they should adhere to the law of Moses, which is now wrong for we have a new covenant, but you present it as false Judaism, and when you say Rabbinic Judasim has it roots in gentile beliefs and practices! I cant help but see it as wrong from the fact God gave us the law and the Old Testament, not pagan practices.

Circumcism was from God if your going to say Abraham was a gentile, it was also for all Abrahams descendants, meaning Jesus and Paul would have both been circumcised. I just want to point out that Judaism is from God, and Jesus would have fulfilled all its requirements as our High priest.

Then we also become a part of Judaism, I see us as both as Jews not outwardly but inwardly as we follow God and are His people. And Jesus is the root that nourishes the tree we have been joined into, we are the bricks along with Moses that judaizer, that are built up into the spiritual temple, the heavenly one.

To say Judaism is false is to denounce the tree we have to be enjoined into, its cutting off our access to the Root.

To me, to say you hate Judaism as a religion, is a brush that even paints my Lord and Saviour. Now those that have taken to reading the Talmud and practice some teachings from it, hate away all you like, I agree with you there. its an affront to God; to Judaism; and as you intimated lots of Jews also hate it.

You asked what I think about a future 1000 years when Israel will rule the world, and I think this is a period of time when Jesus, who is the King of Israel does reign.
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Im not the sharpest tool in the shed, so ill break down what you said into how I interpret what you said, Im not agreeing or disagreeing just trying to ascertain your view, if you dont mind correcting me, ill understand your viewpoint even better

You asked what I think about a future 1000 years when Israel will rule the world, and I think this is a period of time when Jesus, who is the King of Israel does reign.
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Your saying Jesus will reign as king of Israel in this 1000yrs, I disagree but another time.

Jesus is the king in the line of David but also the "image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature" (Colossians 1:15), making Him also king of the whole world.
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Ok, Not just Israel but the whole world
I think that His reign is happening now, and is described in Luke 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it."
This reign will continue for an unknown time until Christ returns.
Click to expand...
I think im getting mixed thoughts here? I also think Jesus reigns now over believers, and maneuvers the world however he wants in fact God has ruled the earth since creation. I also believe the kingdom of God is not an earthly kingdom but a heavenly kingdom which when we are born again become citizens of.
It is hard for the world to grasp that we are now being ruled by Jesus, because He is a servant king.
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I hope people where I live have seen the huge change in my life, and see Jesus is ruling in my life and is now my king.
The carnal mind only recognizes bullies and the world does not know His voice, but the blessings and curses written in the book of Deuteronomy apply just as it did in the holy land regarding our faithfulness.
In this sense the whole world is now the holy land, as if the borders of old Israel has been expanded.
There is no part left that is not under the reign of the King of Israel, but as before He suffers the rebellion patiently until the time of judgement comes.
Click to expand...
Agreed Jesus rules as our spiritual king now, but to me the blessings and curses in Deut are physical, where as our blessings now are spiritual, I mean Ive seen salt of the earth believers go through some horrific things, while deviants(worse than jews, sic) of the most wicked kind dwell in physical blessings, but we have blessings and peace in Him and know its all in Gods hand, and the judgment is not far away. Well 1000yrs and a little bit ;)
 
Clayman said:
I see true Judaism as the Old testament covenant and law given by God to His people, Jesus is a Judaist in the fullest sense, and you and I are the results of Judaism that fully reveals Gods grace and mercy through the redemption of His Son.

You talked about the false Judaistic teachers in acts 15, whom to my understanding were teaching Circumcism for new Converts and that they should adhere to the law of Moses, which is now wrong for we have a new covenant, but you present it as false Judaism, and when you say Rabbinic Judasim has it roots in gentile beliefs and practices! I cant help but see it as wrong from the fact God gave us the law and the Old Testament, not pagan practices.

Circumcism was from God if your going to say Abraham was a gentile, it was also for all Abrahams descendants, meaning Jesus and Paul would have both been circumcised. I just want to point out that Judaism is from God, and Jesus would have fulfilled all its requirements as our High priest.

Then we also become a part of Judaism, I see us as both as Jews not outwardly but inwardly as we follow God and are His people. And Jesus is the root that nourishes the tree we have been joined into, we are the bricks along with Moses that judaizer, that are built up into the spiritual temple, the heavenly one.

To say Judaism is false is to denounce the tree we have to be enjoined into, its cutting off our access to the Root.

To me, to say you hate Judaism as a religion, is a brush that even paints my Lord and Saviour. Now those that have taken to reading the Talmud and practice some teachings from it, hate away all you like, I agree with you there. its an affront to God; to Judaism; and as you intimated lots of Jews also hate it.
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Judaism really isn't a good term to use for the religion of Moses. It appears only twice in the entire bible, including the OT (LXX), and doesn't appear until the 1st century AD. True Judaism is the religion of the pharisees, not Moses. The earliest form of pharisaism was rooted in the law of Moses and was closer to it, yet it perveted the truth in ways. Its later form (post 70AD) has diverged widely from the Torah and is now rooted in the Babylonian Talmud. Zechariah prophesied about this departure from the true religion of Israel in Zechariah 5:5-11.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
Judaism really isn't a good term to use for the religion of Moses. It appears only twice in the entire bible, including the OT (LXX), and doesn't appear until the 1st century AD. True Judaism is the religion of the pharisees, not Moses. The earliest form of pharisaism was rooted in the law of Moses and was closer to it, yet it perveted the truth in ways. Its later form (post 70AD) has diverged widely from the Torah and is now rooted in the Babylonian Talmud. Zechariah prophesied about this departure from the true religion of Israel in Zechariah 5:5-11.
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Its a terrible term to use its been stolen and hijacked, bit like someone explained to me once we are part of the catholic Church, but its also been stolen by the Catholic religion which is how people see it.

Does Zech 5:5-11 still have future fulfillment? The prophesied departure from the true religion of Israel, do you mean Christianity?
 
Clayman said:
Its a terrible term to use its been stolen and hijacked, bit like someone explained to me once we are part of the catholic Church, but its also been stolen by the Catholic religion which is how people see it.
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If you like the term so much then make a distinction between Judaism and rabbinical Judaism and you will be good to go. The later didn't develop until centuries after 70 AD and is totally different from the religion of Moses. Ask a Karaite Jew.
 
ChristRoseFromTheDead said:
This guy is really interesting. First video I came across, so there may be better

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This video is not as good as I hoped it would be. There's a video posted in some thread in which he describes a pivotal moment in which he decided to become a Karaite, when a rabbi told him that rabbis' authority is greater than God's authority. @Genez posted it so maybe he can repost it here.
 
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