144,000: The first resurrection and rapture of the church
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Thanks ATG for you post about the first resurrection. I see Jesus as being the first resurrection. He was the firstborn from the dead. The Bible appears to say that all true believers will have a part in the first resurrection, meaning that all true believers are able to be born again to a new life in Christ because of Jesus' resurrection from the dead : "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ "
The Bible speaks of all true believers as being 'the Israel of God'. Thus, I see the 144000 as Bible parable language for all true believers. We learn in the Bible that all true believers have to do with Mount Zion: "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, ". When Joshua goes across the Jordan with the twelve Israelite tribes it is a parable picture in the Bible of Jesus crossing beyond the judgment with all true believers unharmed. The name Jordan means 'judgment'. The name Joshua means 'Jehova is salvation' and so does the name Jesus. And all believers are called Jews and Israelites in the Bible. So, Jesus takes all true believers over the judgment unharmed. All in Christ have passed from darkness to light and will not come under condemnation.
Hello.....
Read it.
Rev 14
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
You claim the 144,000 are elders.
Read what it says " only THE 144,000 ARE ALLOWED TO SING IT.
YOU INVENTED the part where you are indicating the 144,000 are the elders.
It clearly has the elders there in heaven UNABLE TO SING ALONG.
BUT IT GETS WORSE....because NO MAN COULD SING ALONG.
IT gets harder and harder, for those false notions.
The 144,000 ARE NUMBERED 2 DIFFERENT WAYS!!!!!
WHY!!!!
So no false doctrines will try and confuse WHO they are ....or their NUMBER.
I provided the scripture that clearly cites who the 144k are > ISRAELITES!
And there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the TRIBES of the CHILDREN of ISRAEL!
Rev 7:
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand """of all the tribes of the children of Israel""".
5 Of the ""tribe of Juda"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Reuben"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Gad" were sealed twelve thousand.
(MY NOTE: Juda, Reuben & Gad = 3)
6 Of the ""tribe of Aser"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Nepthalim"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Manasses"" were sealed twelve thousand.
(MY NOTE: Aser, Nepthalim & Manasses = 6)
7 Of the ""tribe of Simeon"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Levi"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Issachar"" were sealed twelve thousand.
(MY NOTE: Simeon, Levi & Issachar = 9)
8 Of the ""tribe of Zabulon"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Joseph"" were sealed twelve thousand. Of the ""tribe of Benjamin"" were sealed twelve thousand.
(MY NOTE: Zabulon, Joseph & Benjamin = 12)
The 12 TRIBE 144k are 100% ISRAELITES!
KJV Dictionary Definition: TRIBE, n. L. tribus.
1. A family, race or series of generations, descending from the same progenitor and kept distinct, as in the case of the twelve tribes of Israel, descended from the twelve sons of Jacob.
Vines Bible Dictionary of New Testament Words: TRIBE
a) The word "tribe" is never used in the Bible to refer gentiles. As follows: "Tribe" is found 297 times in the Bible, and ""every time"" it refers to the Israelites.
Gen 32:28 God changed Jacob's name to Israel. The 12 TRIBES of Israel are Jacob's sons. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES!
Your turn, provide the verses that cite the 144k as Jews.
Even when exposed the trolling continues.Aw, you should really be reading the Bible more. It's okay: when you get older having a routine comes easier.
You can do it!
Like I said....all that juvenile mess is for little game players.
I am not a player ok?
Let's just pretend your hair splitting is correct.
Now we know your trivia basis changes everything obvious huh?
So...you need a distinct difference from Paul to Never say "Jew" in place of " israel"
Ever read where Paul interchanged the 2?
Romans 10
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Now keep that in mind that your trivial argument the 2 can NEVER INTECHANGE.
Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Now why did the Holy Spirit deceive us in trickery.
Under your application Paul is saying the gospel must go to one tribe only, then the Greeks, because your beliefs change the bible ?
....AND AGAIN HERE IN CH 9
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
.....Now in vs 31, Paul addresses "Jews" as "Israel"
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Paul is confused ?
The book if romans is not inspired ?
Ever read where Paul interchanged the 2?
Romans 10
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Now keep that in mind that your trivial argument the 2 can NEVER INTECHANGE.
Romans 10
1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Now why did the Holy Spirit deceive us in trickery.
Under your application Paul is saying the gospel must go to one tribe only, then the Greeks, because your beliefs change the bible ?
....AND AGAIN HERE IN CH 9
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
.....Now in vs 31, Paul addresses "Jews" as "Israel"
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Paul is confused ?
The book if romans is not inspired ?
Sure you are.
You first wrote this:
That suggested you were easily emotionally bothered by what people might believe.
Using the context clues I assumed your age to be in the teens.
But don't worry about your age, we all start somewhere.
No, I DIDN'T claim the elders are the 144,000, I claimed the elders who sing the "new song' are PART OF the 144,000: the elders sing the "new song" yet all, and only, the saints sing the "new song"; therefore, the elders are of the 144,000 - it's actually simple. Those, and only those, who sing the "new song" are the "redeemed out of " out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation", not only the Christian Jews but ALL of the saints (Christians); they alone sing it. If you look closely at the verses below and analyze them comprehensively, you'll see it.
Read the following verses closely.
[Psa 149:1 KJV] 1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, [and] his praise in the congregation of saints.
[Rev 5:9 KJV] 9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
[Rev 14:3 KJV] 3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred [and] forty [and] four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
Galatians is contrasting THE 2 COVENANTS.
GAL 3
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
Gal 3 is going back to the ORIGINAL PROMISE with Abraham.
Paul is labeling that entire Hebrew dynamic out of Abraham as "Jews"
Your error is;
1) protection of some doctrine
2) totally omittingbthe new Testaments change.....it is in the POST CAPTIVITY ERA.
You are framing the new Testament in the 2 kingdoms. Israel and judah.
The gl a ring problem is in lack of investigation.
You will never acknowledge the verses I am bringing forth.
You have never read them, and they are new to you..
You do not know that "jew" in the new Testament is interchangeable with "hebrew" and "Israel"
Bible gateway ;
"299 Bible results for “Jew” from
King James Version."
190 are in the NT.
Let's see you do the tiny bit of investigation.
Your claim is that "Jew" can not possibly be used in place of "israel"
Go to the verses and find one making your argument.
Find a couple that is your smoking gun proving most of the new Testament is incorrect.
Just put me on ignore Jr.Sure you are.
You first wrote this:
That suggested you were easily emotionally bothered by what people might believe.
Using the context clues I assumed your age to be in the teens.
But don't worry about your age, we all start somewhere.
It is that simple.
It will magically deliver you from trolling me!
Yes I know you incorrectly number the elders with the 144,000.
We all can see , and wonder why you will not admit, the elders are unable to sing along, as you tried to erroneously insert into the picture.
Why did you do that...and continue to pretend they sing with all of heaven ...INSPITE OF THE BIBLE ????
Yes they're israelites
Now tell Paul and Jesus ,that do what I do, (interchange the 2) that the bible is wrong in doing so.
Okay, this is getting ridiculous.
[Rev 5:8-9 KJV]
8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four [and] twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.
9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;
A breach of fresh air.
Every sensible Christian knows this. It's the one that like to think they have a special revelation, especially all new one, including private talks with God, that always seem to be offended at calls for 'chapter and verse'...
Gal 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Act 17:11
These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
Jesus commands us to search the Scriptures to see if what we are told and/or believe is so, or not:
Jhn 5:39
Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
The ten 'lost' tribes of Israel refers to the Jews of northern kingdom of Israel taken away to northern Assyria, and cast out of the LORD's sight, never to be heard from again. There are of course conspiracy theories about them popping up later in Britain or America, but since Scripture says nothing of them, then neither should any reader of Scripture.
Of course, personal theories are always fun, I guess.
If you are saying what you are saying, that Jews cannot now be saved, then this is a variation of the lie of some early Gentile Christians, that Paul rebukes in Romans 11. They believed that none of the Jews could ever be saved by the risen Lamb of God, because they were the accusers and movers of His crucifixion.
Paul of course points out that the very apostles, that the Gentile Christian heard and obeyed from the Lord Jesus, were in fact Jews.
Rom 11:1
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
And of course all the first disciples of the risen Lamb were in fact Jews, beginning with Mary Magdalene in the night of Jesus' resurrection.
The topic of discussion is the 144k. Mentioned twice in scripture.
Find here:
Rev_7:4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Rev_14:3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
You're the one trying to mix covenants. The 144k all rise/resurrect right after Jesus. The 144k are 100% ISRAELITES! Clearly resurrected from OT ISRAELITES! There are 12k Jews recorded to be among them. That being those from the TRIBE of Judah.
Every Jew is an Israelite not every Israelite is a Jew!
I have shared (I didn't write them) the verses that support my posted position. You're free to add whatever you like. It doesn't change the recorded truths.
This is unnecessary symbolism, that often turns the truth of Scripture into a fable, rather than meaning what it says.
Especially when the law is put into our minds, not written on our foreheads... Likewise, if the seal of God were to be on their chests, it wouldn't be the law written in our hearts.
Where there's no clear Scriptural confirmation of symbolism, allegory, parable, etc... then there's no Scriptural reason to make the Scripture symbolic, allegorical, or just a parable. All it does is changes the Scripture into something other than God means.
Many Bible readers like to exercise our 'spiritual' minds by seeking symbolism and allegory in the Scriptures, which is not necessarily wrong in itself, unless it changes the meaning of the Scripture to teach something other than plainly written.
The seal and name of the Living God will be in the physical foreheads of the 144,000. Trying to say otherwise leads to making the bodily resurrection itself only symbolic. Which is what many readers do with the resurrection. They also do so with the coming of the risen Lord to earth again:
2Pe 1:16
For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.
That's an interesting anatomical point, that shows Scripture ahead of it's time in many of the natural sciences, that were yet to be discovered by men on earth...But, the forehead is not the brain, and if the seal is only symbolic, then it's neither on the forehead nor the brain.
You see how over-symbolizing takes away from the truth, that is plainly written in the prophecy of God. Afterall, how many believers are there, that think the Lord's whole Millennium on earth is already an ongoing secretly hidden spiritual kingdom? That, BTW, would not be a Millennium, since it would already be almost 2000 years old...
Not if it's only symbolic. Symbolism isn't put nor written on anything physical anywhere. Unless you are talking about a physical symbol itself, which would of course be the seal and name of the Father. It might be a good effort, to try and find in Scripture what they sealed symbol and name looks like?
No one has seen the Father at any time, but at the Lord's return, many will see His name sealed in the foreheads of His sealed 144,000 redeemed, firstfruits and servants...
True. No one will be tampering with the 144,000 resurrected saints on earth, nor while standing with the Lamb on Mt Sion...Though the angry rebel armies on earth will actually try:
Rev 17:14
These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.
They will be as reprobate stupid as Pharaoh taking his chariot army down to the dry bed of the Red Sea, with all the waves standing up on either side, just waiting to come crashing down upon the blinded fools.
Exo 15:4
Pharaoh's chariots and his host hath he cast into the sea: his chosen captains also are drowned in the Red sea.
Correct. When reading Scripture, my eyes first fix on what they say. Don't read anything about judge, judging, judgment, judged in Rev 7. A simple word search comes up empty...
If the spirit sees into Scripture what the written words never say, then the spirit is seeing things, that the Scripture never says...
2Pe 1:20
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.