Can We Really Exercise Free Will?

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Magenta

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Colossians 2 verses 13-14 ~ When you were dead in your trespasses and in the uncircumcision of your sinful nature, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our trespasses, having canceled the debt ascribed to us in the decrees that stood against us. He took it away, nailing it to the cross!
:)
 

Magenta

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Ephesians 2:1-3 You were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you used to walk when you conformed to the ways of this world and of the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit who is now at work in the sons of disobedience. All of us also lived among them at one time, fulfilling the cravings of our flesh and indulging its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature children of wrath. :)
 

Magenta

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Jeremiah 31 verse 3 ~ I have loved you with an everlasting love; therefore I have drawn you with lovingkindness.
:)
 

Rufus

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we'll have to see if you will you answer the question ... or just bloviate some more ...

Where in Scripture does God reveal that Adam will be thrown in the lake of fire?





God provided the offering for the sin of Adam and Eve as well as the covering for the shame Adam and Eve experienced due to their fall:

Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

Adam was not excluded.

Was the offering by God insufficient?





Genesis 3:21 Unto Adam also and to his wife did the LORD God make coats of skins, and clothed them.

please note, this verse occurs after the verse which you claim provides "strong evidence that only Eve was the godly one" (your post 2346)





Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

the seed [singular] of the woman is the Lord Jesus Christ ...





you exclude Adam from Gen 3:21 ... so your conclusion concerning Adam is faulty.
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Talk about "bloviating" -- and by someone who doesn't read too swell. I never excluded Adam from Gent 3:21. But I did explain that that text in and of itself does not provide concrete proof that both A&E were saved. And the reason it doesn't is because God's work must be appropriated by FAITH! Jesus went to the Cross, and according to most professing believers He died for all mankind w/o exception; yet even FWers will acknowledge that that atoning work needs to be accepted by FAITH before it becomes effective. The same thing is true with God's work of sacrificing innocent animals for a sin covering. Therefore, where is the biblical evidence that Adam manifested any faith in his life?

Secondly, you ducked the question I asked about to whose seed does Adam belong: The Woman's or the Serpent's. Why don't you answer the question?

Thirdly, yes, Christ is the preeminent seed in the text but he's not the only seed! Multiple godly seeds came from Eve just as multiple spiritually ungodly seeds come from the devil (as I proved recently). Eve isn't the spiritual mother of just one [spiritually] living person (Christ), for the text says that she would become the mother of ALL the living (Gen 3:20). But according to your understanding of Gen 3:15, "all the living" would be only one person, i.e. Christ, which means no one could have been saved in the OT. Everyone else in the OT must have been the devil's seed by default.

And if you had bothered to do your homework, you would have discovered that the term "seed" is also singular for the Serpent; yet, as proved previously the devil has multiple seeds! In both instances of the "seed" in the text the same exact word is used when referring to to the spiritual seed of Eve's and the Serpent's. So, your objection in this regard is quite lame.

And your question about Adam and the Lake of Fire, as explained previously, is an argument from silence because I can just as easily turn around and ask you where in scripture does it reveal that Adam made it to heaven.

P.S. I made several attempts last night to beam up this post but this dysfunctional site was down again. A little later I will prove from scripture that the atoning work of God in Gen 3:21 was not efficacious as so many Christians seem to think.
 
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Thanks for your comments.

I have a question about your list and please correct me wherever I'm off.

I know you're drawing from Scripture, but I get a check in my spirit on your #1.

As I recall, you said you were born into a Christian family and never really knew life apart from God. I was not raised in such a home. I was introduced to Roman Catholicism mainly by a grandmother at a young age and do somewhat remember the amazement at the building and all the display of the priest and service. I soon still very young rebelled to a degree that brought it to a head, and I think my parents determined to not force it on me. I do also recall laying in a field once still very young looking at the skies and clouds - creation - and wondering where it all came from and having a sense of God maybe from the Catholic grandiosity.

30+ years later (and I'm skipping over some interesting events) I don't think I was so much thinking about salvation as I was that life, and humanity made no sense and there had to be more to this. People were just not that impressive. Pursuits were empty. Most "experts" were basically a farce but good at marketing to the masses. I had read the Bible a few times cover to cover some years before. I crashed into the contrite spirit mode, realized extremely clearly that I had made all the decisions that put me where I was, and asked God to take over this thing called life because I could not do it.

So, with that said, do you think we could discuss some about your #1. Maybe I was seeking salvation because that word needs to always be considered in context. My simple request to Him besides taking over, was that I just wanted to know the Truth as I was sick to death of the nonsense of men - the "experts" telling us what to do, how to do it, how to get what we want, how to be happy, how to do this and that and whatever, basically all the bs self-help stuff peddled by people mostly trying to merchandise people. I was also doing well financially and came to realize how fleeting and unfulfilling it was.

It's funny how I'm attempting to discuss this corpse analogy with some. In seminary when exegeting a few books, one of the phrases one of the professors liked to use was "living a death-like life" - which rang true but note the first and last words which I think this corpse nonsense negates. But applying the professor's phrase does apply to the above and to your #1 and to salvation - salvation from living a death-like life - which is more of a meaninglessness than a corpse-like nothingness.

Just some thoughts to try to express why #1 may be seeming a bit off for me.

Thanks again.
Thanks for sharing your testimony, but I am not clear about what you think seems off in:

1. Formerly/at first I was without hope of salvation from meaninglessness and death. (Eph. 3:12b)

I noticed that I cited the wrong verse. Instead of Eph. 3:12, I meant Eph. 2:12.

The context in my mind for this comment includes:

A. [From website L.1, Part II]
Since absolute skepticism or agnosticism is unattainable for thinkers or truthseekers, there are only two qualitatively different ways of answering these questions. One way is by assuming that there is no ultimate “whyness” or purpose beyond survival and avoiding pain, so it does not ultimately matter what one believes or does, because humanity merely evolved from eternal energy/matter, into which it “devolves” at death. You may desire for some reason to survive and to save the world, but if life becomes too painful you may wish you were never born and want to destroy the world, because there is no good reason you ought to be like Messiah rather than like Mania or to be loving rather than maniacal. You may believe and act like evil exists or not, because life is a farce or a continual “King of the Hill” (KOTH) struggle against human adversaries and various other types of adversity, having no ultimate or universal moral imperative (UMI).

The second type of answer is that life is NOT a farce—that existence has meaning, and how one believes and behaves does matter for some non-arbitrary reason. This answer seems more appealing to me and almost logically imperative, although some people appear to prefer the paths of nihilism and KOTH (cf. Matt. 13:14-15).

B. [From website L.2, Part II]
A crisis that threatened a Philippian jailer with death prompted him to ask Paul and Silas the most important question in life: “What must I do to be saved?” (Acts 16:30) This question is most important, because—as sinful and mortal souls—we need saving from corruption, both moral and physical. We need saving from physical death if we value or enjoy life, and we need saving from immorality or evil-doing if it results in unhappy existence, especially after this lifetime.
 

Rufus

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Nope. You don't seem to be a student. What I am doing is pointing you in a direction for consideration so you can draw your own conclusions. Perhaps you haven't considered all that is to be considered.
And sadly, this is a very common error among so many believers. We often don't consider how an interpretation of any one passage affects the entire counsel of God! It seems many of us suffer from mental myopia. Many of us apparently forget that even though the bible consists of 66 canonical books, at the same time it's still one homogeneous book that tells one story for all the ages.

Not too long ago, I brought this fact to Studier's attention and referred to the necessity of interpreting scripture in its "3-in-1" context (immediate, intermediate and macro). And this observation prompted him to mock and ridicule this sound hermeneutical principle by comparing scripture to 3-in-1 oil. :rolleyes: I know one of Studier's favorite go-to passages, that supposedly proves man's "freewill", is Rom 1 which has to do with Natural Revelation. But apparently he is not aware that the Universe itself reflects the Triune (3-in-1) nature of God. The universe is actually a Triuniverse, for it consists of Space, Matter and Time -- each of these being unique, distinct components, and each of these in turn having 3 sub components; yet, at the same time they are totally dependent upon each other which is how the universe functions smoothly, orderly and within its God-ordained physical laws. IOW, no one of these distinct components can exist and function apart from the other two. Moreover, each component reflects a specific Person in the Godhead, etc. But I digress... The point is that this triunity extends to God's Word as well. And I will set out, under a separate post, to prove this with Gen 3:21 Lord willin' and the crik doesn't rise. :)
 
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And sadly, this is a very common error among so many believers. We often don't consider how an interpretation of any one passage affects the entire counsel of God! It seems many of us suffer from mental myopia. Many of us apparently forget that even though the bible consists of 66 canonical books, at the same time it's still one homogeneous book that tells one story for all the ages.

Not too long ago, I brought this fact to Studier's attention and referred to the necessity of interpreting scripture in its "3-in-1" context (immediate, intermediate and macro). And this observation prompted him to mock and ridicule this sound hermeneutical principle by comparing scripture to 3-in-1 oil. :rolleyes: I know one of Studier's favorite go-to passages, that supposedly proves man's "freewill", is Rom 1 which has to do with Natural Revelation. But apparently he is not aware that the Universe itself reflects the Triune (3-in-1) nature of God. The universe is actually a Triuniverse, for it consists of Space, Matter and Time -- each of these being unique, distinct components, and each of these in turn having 3 sub components; yet, at the same time they are totally dependent upon each other which is how the universe functions smoothly, orderly and within its God-ordained physical laws. IOW, no one of these distinct components can exist and function apart from the other two. Moreover, each component reflects a specific Person in the Godhead, etc. But I digress... The point is that this triunity extends to God's Word as well. And I will set out, under a separate post, to prove this with Gen 3:21 Lord willin' and the crik doesn't rise. :)
Re"It seems many of us suffer from mental myopia.": Yes, although I would say y'all suffer from Scriptural myopia (only seeing
those that can be construed out of context as supporting TULIP)--as was revealed previously when we examined the three passages
that turned out to support MFW.
 

Rufus

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It may be significant that Genesis doesn’t describe the relationship of A and E with God before they exercised their God-given MFW to ignore GW.
Shirely U. Jest! Since man was created "very good" and actually dwelt with God in His Temple (the Garden), and Light can have no fellowship or communion with Darkness, nor can righteousness and wickedness have anything in common, then the only logical and biblical inference that can made is that A&E enjoyed sweet, peaceful, loving communion with their Creator, although since Adam was created first, he likely had a much longer relationship with God than Eve did.
 
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Re"It seems many of us suffer from mental myopia.": Yes, although I would say y'all suffer from Scriptural myopia (only seeing
those that can be construed out of context as supporting TULIP)--as was revealed previously when we examined the three passages
that turned out to support MFW.
Those passages included 1Cor. 18-21:

1Cor. 1:21b, "God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe." Using Mag's favorite terminology, God's method of saving sinners or natural men is via revealing the Gospel, and we know from 1Tim. 2:3-4 that
God desires all to believe.

1Cor. 1:23-24, "We preach Christ crucified... to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God." Again, "We preach to all natural men", and "to those natural men God has called". This prompts the question: Is "desire" in 1Tim. 2:3-4 synonymous with God's "calling" in 1Cor. 1:24--and we might add with God's "drawing" in John 12:32 and with God's "invitation" in Matt. 22:14? The last verse and John 13:18 indicate that although God loves and wants to save every natural man, some ignore/reject/resist His desire/calling/drawing/invitation and are therefore not chosen or saved, while some do NOT resist God's calling but rather believe the Gospel, realizing its wisdom and power to save, at which point they become chosen/elect.

1Cor. 1:26, "Brothers, think of what you were when you were called... Not many were influential." They were natural men in the lower social class, but yet they believed or cooperated with God's calling.

1Cor. 1:27-28, "God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise... the lowly... and the despised". God's saving of despised natural men was intended to humble all natural men, so that "no one may boast before him" (1Cor. 1:29).

1Cor. 2:1-2, "When I came to you, brothers... I proclaimed to you... Jesus Christ and him crucified." Paul reiterated that God saved some natural men via them accepting Paul's preaching of the Gospel.

1Cor. 2:10, "God has revealed it to us by his Spirit." God's HS enables natural men to believe the Gospel and be saved (or not).
 
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Another Scripture was Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching. The immediate context includes:

Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."

Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."

Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."
 
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And the third passage was Deut. 29:4.

The pertinent pericope seems to begin with Deut. 28:1 & 15, "If you fully obey the Lord your God... God will set you high above
all the nations on earth... However, if you do not obey the Lord your God... all these curses will come upon you." This verse implies that the Israelites are free to obey or disobey.

Next we have the verse you cited/Deut. 29:4, "To this day the Lord has not given you a mind that understands or eyes that see
or ears that hear." This sounds like God prevented the Israelites from obeying Him.

But then we come to Deut. 29:9, "Carefully follow the terms of this covenant, so that you may prosper in everything you do." This seems to indicate that the Israelites can follow or not follow the terms.

And finally we arrive at the clearest statement of what Moses meant in Deut. 30:19b-20a, "I have set before you life and death,
blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children might live and that you may love the Lord your God." This obviously teaches that the Israelites are deemed to have MFW.
 

Rufus

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Of course you do. Yet Scripture says something completely different. The opposite, in fact.
Yeah...did you catch what Studier just said? He believes that UNBELIEVERS can please God with some of the righteousness they do! Apparently, he has never read that "without faith it's impossible to please God" (Heb 11:6), and that whatever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:26), and that the world at large HATES God, His Son, the Light, Wisdom, Knowledge, etc. and that a curse rests upon those who do not love God (1Cor 16:22), and whatever "good" unbelievers may do that is tainted because they did not perform their good deeds for God's glory but for their own (1Cor 10:31; Col 3:23), and the righteousness of the unrighteous are like filthy rags. They are all unclean (Isa 64:6).
 

Magenta

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Yeah...did you catch what Studier just said? He believes that UNBELIEVERS can please God with some of the righteousness they do! Apparently, he has never read that "without faith it's impossible to please God" (Heb 11:6), and that whatever is not of faith is sin (Rom 14:26), and that the world at large HATES God, His Son, the Light, Wisdom, Knowledge, etc. and that a curse rests upon those who do not love God (1Cor 16:22), and whatever "good" unbelievers may do that is tainted because they did not perform their good deeds for God's glory but for their own (1Cor 10:31; Col 3:23), and the righteousness of the unrighteous are like filthy rags. They are all unclean (Isa 64:6).
You have probably seen me say a number of times that these free will promoters reject, ignore, contradict, and outright deny a plethora of Scriptures, but the more studier says the more shocking it becomes that they think they are qualified to teach.
 
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You have probably seen me say a number of times that these free will promoters reject, ignore, contradict, and outright deny a plethora of Scriptures, but the more studier says the more shocking it becomes that they think they are qualified to teach.
Do you have one of those Scriptures you would like to discuss instead of being pejorative?
 

studier

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Acts 10:34-35 re: the obvious believer in God Rom1 yet at the time unbeliever in our Lord Jesus. So, what does Acts10:35 say? Look up and define dechomai re: God’s view of this Gentile unbeliever.

Some prefer to stick with the nonsense corpse analogy of man and deny the obvious and clear reading of the Scripture re: this Gentile unbeliever whom God sent His Gospel messenger to.

So, once again, open Book, eisegete election eternity past at any and every verse.
 

studier

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Sure Rufus, nobody but you considers context close and throughout all Scripture.

Yet time and time again it’s vivid that you have little to no grasp of how to deal with Scripture in close context let alone in greater context.

The lunacy here astounds.
 
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Sure Rufus, nobody but you considers context close and throughout all Scripture.

Yet time and time again it’s vivid that you have little to no grasp of how to deal with Scripture in close context let alone in greater context.

The lunacy here astounds.
Perhaps "brainwashing" is a less pejorative term?

(My CO called it brain-farting, but I guess that is more pejorative :^)
 

Pilgrimshope

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Another Scripture was Jer. 17:9a, "The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure."

In order to understand Scripture correctly, one must consider both the immediate context
and NT teaching. The immediate context includes:

Jer. 17:5, "Cursed is the one who trusts in man... and whose heart turns away from the Lord."
Jer. 17:7, "But blessed is the man who trusts in the Lord, whose confidence is in Him."
Jer. 17:10, "I, the Lord, search the heart and examine the mind, to reward a man according to his conduct,
according to what his deeds deserve."

Jer. 12:1, 3, 14, 16, "You are always righteous, O Lord... you see me and test my thoughts about you...
This is what the Lord says... if the wicked learn well the ways of my people... then they will be established among my people."

Jer. 14:10, "This is what the Lord says about the people of Judah, They greatly love to wander...
so the Lord does not accept them; he will now ... punish them for their sins."

Jer. 18:8-11, "If that nation I warned repents of its evil, then I will relent and not inflict on it the disaster I had planned...
And if it does evil in my sight and does not obey me, then I will reconsider the good I had intended to do for it...
So turn from your evil ways, each one of you."
Amen he’s always been saying it
 

Rufus

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I'm actually thankful to RDBD for insisting that Gen 3:21 teaches that God's provision of animal skins (presumably from innocent animals slain in the Garden) "proves" that A&E were both saved. But this assumption presents more problems than it solves. Chief among them is that the assumption presumes that Salvation is a one-sided coin...or that the Salvation Train runs on only one track, i.e. the Savior's Provision. The assumption conveniently forgets that the Salvation Train runs on two tracks: The Savior's Provision and the Sinner's Response Thereto. After all, there is no text in scriptue that teaches "the just shall live by God's atoning work". Rather, "the just shall live by [their] faith" (Hab 2:4).

And this in turn presents another huge problem: God's atoning work in the Garden had to be efficacious, according to such a poor presuppositon above! God saved the entire human race (A&E), without any regard to their response to His work? (Talk about megabytes of irony!) Yet, at the same time, we know that His work could not have been efficacious since it very clearly did not positively affect Cain who turned out to be a seed/offspring of the Serpent. (Or maybe God got creative and had two different plans of salvation: one for A&E and one for their progeny?) :rolleyes:

But last night God brought to my remembrance Heb 10, which even more pointedly addresses the text in Gen 3:21. I would strongly urge all here to read carefully the entire chapter -- or at least from vv. 1-31. Since the passage is so long, I'm just going to highlight a few passages that set the tone for the passage.

Heb 10:1-7
1For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities,
it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. 2 Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be offered, since the worshipers, having once been cleansed, would no longer have any consciousness of sin? 3 But in these sacrifices there is a reminder of sin every year. 4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins.

5 Consequently, when Christ came into the world, he said,

"Sacrifices and offerings you have not desired,
but a body have you prepared for me;
6 in burnt offerings and sin offerings
you have taken no pleasure.

7 Then I said, 'Behold, I have come to do your will, O God,
as it is written of me in the scroll of the book.'"

ESV

So...the question that is begging for answer in light of the text above is: What was God's purpose in providing animal skin coverings for our first parents? Since the blood of animals can never take away sins and God himself takes no pleasure in such sacrifices as were commanded in His holy Law, then surely what was written above applies with equal force to the pre-Law era. Here's my two-prong answer to the question: God provided animal skin coverings to generally show mankind that man cannot hide his real guilt and shame for sin by his own methods; but even more specifically to the Genesis text God provided animal skin coverings to evoke a Faith Response from Eve whom He had elected earlier unto salvation(3:15). Election very clearly preceded Eve's faith!

Even Eve understood that her animal skin coverings were not the real answer for her guilt and shame. She acknowledged God and expressed her appreciation to Him twice (4:1, 25) for His help in bringing forth two male children -- both of whom she very likely thought would fulfill the [messianic] "seed" prophecy (Gen 3:15) within her own lifetime. Little did she realize that that prophecy would take thousands of years to fulfill!

So, if we do a chronological timeline flyover of the Genesis account, which I like to do often with narratives because by such an exercise a bigger picture often emerges to provide us with a deeper understanding of a given passage and helps us to avoid that pernicious disease of mental myopia.

1. The first prophecy in scripture is the Fall (2:16-17).

2. We can know this prophecy was a result of divine Prerogative (decree) and not mere Prescience by the fact that God purposely did not consign the devil and the rest of his rebellious horde to eternal punishment immediately after they fell, but rather He cast them down to the earth to interact with humanity in order to accomplish his good, holy and perfect will. Satan would be the perfect Antagonist in God's story of mankind's Redemption.

3. From 3:15 we see God again exercising his Prerogative with the cast of characters involved in humanity's fall. He cursed the Serpent above all the other beasts upon the earth; He [implicitly] reconciled Eve to Himself by placing enmity between her and the Serpent (therefore removing the enmity between Eve and Himself) and between her seed and his seed; and by excluding Adam from his reconciliation promise which can only mean that God consigned Adam to be a child of the Serpent.

4. This divine decree was certainly effectual since Eve expressed gratitude/faith twice to God in the account (4:1, 25), and even Adam understood that she would become the mother of all the spiritually living (3:20). However, with Adam (who is always contrasted with Christ!) there is not a scintilla of biblical evidence that he ever repented and trusted God for the atonement provision He made.

The really big question, then, isn't whether God's Atonement Provision was sufficient or not for both A&E, but the question is one of design/purpose for God's atoning work. The mere assumption on the part of many professing Christians is that God designed his work to be effectual for both our first parents (which again is beyond Mega Irony given the complete lack of evidence for any faith on the part of Adam); yet, the biblical evidence tells us that God designed his work to benefit Eve and all her godly seed, which exluded Adam and Cain. So, the post-Fall account not only teaches Unconditional Election with respect to Eve but also Irresistible Grace since Eve did respond favorably to God's earlier decree and gracious provision, and Limited Atonement (in the quantitative sense) as well, and Perseverance of the Saints since Eve's faith carried over many years later 'till the birth of her third son at least, AND last but not least Total Depravity since Cain could not change what he had become even with the empirical evidence he had for God's existence! He could not bring himself to repent of the sins in his evil heart.