Charismatic Christian
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Hello,
Thanks for responding. I follow a few prominent teaches such as Wayne Grudem, Amos Yong, Oral Roberts (Although he passed in 09), Rodney Howard Browne to name a few.
I have heard of the Word of Faith movement. I am all for faith and I do believe in prosperity because it is in the Bible, but I do not agree with the majority of the prosperity gospel. I believe that America has made it a more self ward focused Gospel as opposed to sacrifice and bringing the message to lost individuals.
Thanks for responding. I follow a few prominent teaches such as Wayne Grudem, Amos Yong, Oral Roberts (Although he passed in 09), Rodney Howard Browne to name a few.
I have heard of the Word of Faith movement. I am all for faith and I do believe in prosperity because it is in the Bible, but I do not agree with the majority of the prosperity gospel. I believe that America has made it a more self ward focused Gospel as opposed to sacrifice and bringing the message to lost individuals.
If I were you I would be very careful, especially with Rodney Howard Brown. Do a google search on the Word of faith movement. Many of their teachers are false teachers. The prosperty gospel is just one issur of many that they teach. I was involved in a ministry that refuted their false teachings starting back in the early 1970's. I'm just giving you a heads up via Acts 17:11.
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
IN GOD THE SON,
bluto
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Welcome to CC,
May I share my understanding of spiritual dynamics?
At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit (HS) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). Paul refers to the comparable moment for Abraham as spiritual circumcision. This manifold event is also called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13). We can infer that this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers like Abraham, because there is no salvation outside of Christ’s ekklesia or church (ACTS 4:12). Partial knowledge of God’s Word will limit ability to cooperate with Him, so there is a need for evangelism or learning the full Gospel (MT 28:18-20, cf. ACTS 18:24-26) as well as for lifelong discipleship or spiritual training (2TM 3:16-17). From the advent of Christ until the Second Coming is the third or New Covenant dispensation and relationship with God (RM 3:21-26, GL 3:24-25, HB 7:18-10:1).
Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. In His “Great Commission” Jesus tied saving faith closely to the work of water baptism when He said “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them” (MT 28:19). Yet, in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul wrote that “We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.” This suggests that spirit baptism occurs at the moment of conversion, when the HS unites the new saint (saved sinner/soul) with Christ, because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” (RM 8:9)
The indwelling of the HS may also be called the initial filling by the HS, because at the point of confession and conversion a person is cooperating fully with God. (See RM 6:3-7, GL 2:20) The evidence that a person has been baptized by God’s Spirit or included in Christ’s spiritual body is love in its myriad of forms (GL 5:22-23, JN 13:35). Again, because a person’s commitment to Christ is in accordance with God’s perfect will and the response of yielding to His calling (1TM 2:3-4), the moment of spiritual baptism fulfills the command of Ephesians 5:18 to be filled (cooperate fully) with the Spirit. For Christians, this stage occurred in the past historically and grammatically; we were saved when we repented and accepted Christ. It should be noted that the indwelling of the HS does not obviate the need for faith, which is the way God makes or provides for keeping believers standing firm (1CR 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, 2CR 1:20-24). In JN 17:6-12 Jesus said that the disciples knew Jesus spoke GW and knew with certainty and believed that God sent Jesus, indicating that “certainty” meant confident faith, noting that Judas was lost in order to fulfill Scripture (cf. 6:70 & 13:18, referring to PS 41:9). Also, Peter denied knowing Christ thrice, and Thomas doubted per JN 20:24-29.
The second stage is spiritual growth, which is also referred to as maturation (EPH 4:13), discipleship (ACTS 14:22) or sanctification (2THS 2:13). Grammatically it is present progressive, and historically it is the process of being saved now. This stage has two phases: instability and maturity. Although a new Spirit-filled convert has access to all of the power he/she needs for loving like Christ (EPH 3:16-19), no one attains immediate “perfection” by remaining filled with the Holy Spirit forever (PHP 3:12). Instead, the combination of temptations, ignorance and the old selfish nature results in immature saints committing their first post-conversion sin(s). Then he/she no longer is spiritual or filled with the Holy Spirit but rather is acting like unsaved unbelievers (1CR 3:1). This “venial” type of error differs from the “mortal” or damning sin of unbelief or apostasy (rejecting God’s Lordship, cf. JM 1:15).
As soon as a new Christian realizes a sin was committed, he/she should confess it (1JN 1:9) rather than compound it by trying to hide it or cover it up like Adam and Eve did (GN 3:7-8). Then God will forgive, and the saint will again be in a Spirit-filled or spiritual condition. This spiritual flip-flopping might happen once a day, or it could occur several times in an hour. While this instability may be bad, failure to confess promptly is much worse, because it results in chain-sinning or back-sliding. This condition is also referred to as being carnal/worldly (1CR 3:1) or prodigal (LK 15:13) if it continues for weeks or years.
Unfortunately, some people may not appreciate the process of being renewed morally or as Paul says (in RM 12:2) of being “transformed by the renewing of your mind”, perhaps because it involves admitting sins or having “guilt trips”. It is not guilt that is bad; rather whatever one is doing that makes one feel guilty. Guilt is like a warning light on a car’s instrument panel that lets one know something is wrong. Until we have the wisdom to welcome God’s “guilt trips” like we do warning lights, we will never feel the satisfaction of becoming a new and improved version of ourselves. Hopefully, we will never reach the point where we are so callous that we experience no guilt when we do wrong. Warnings are good!
This unstable or immature phase in a Christian’s spiritual relationship with God is followed eventually (and hopefully soon) by a second phase of relative perfection or maturity signified in the Bible (especially the King James Version) by the phrase “walking with God”. Genesis 5:24 describes Enoch as a man who walked with God, and the apostle Paul described the goal of Christians (the fullness of Christ) as walking with God (RM 6:4, GL 5:16, EPH 4:1, 1THS 4:1). Elsewhere the continually (ideally) Spirit-filled condition is referred to as walking: in light (1JN 1:7), in love (EPH 5:2), in a new life (RM 6:4), according to the Spirit (RM 8:4), and in good works (CL 1:10).
The outward evidence that someone is Spirit-filled (EPH 5:18) or walking with God is the manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit or fullness of Christ (EPH 3:19, 4:13), which consists of such attributes as those listed in Galatians 5:22-23: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Jesus said “All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another” (JN13:35), because “love” sums up the moral character of God (1JN 4:7-8).
May I share my understanding of spiritual dynamics?
At the moment of repentance/acceptance, God’s Holy Spirit (HS) enters believers’ spiritual hearts (RV 3:20), uniting them with God as heavenly Father (RM 8:9) and identifying them with Christ’s worldwide/catholic body or church (CL 1:18). Paul refers to the comparable moment for Abraham as spiritual circumcision. This manifold event is also called spiritual birth or baptism (1CR 12:13). We can infer that this dynamic occurs also for pre-NT believers like Abraham, because there is no salvation outside of Christ’s ekklesia or church (ACTS 4:12). Partial knowledge of God’s Word will limit ability to cooperate with Him, so there is a need for evangelism or learning the full Gospel (MT 28:18-20, cf. ACTS 18:24-26) as well as for lifelong discipleship or spiritual training (2TM 3:16-17). From the advent of Christ until the Second Coming is the third or New Covenant dispensation and relationship with God (RM 3:21-26, GL 3:24-25, HB 7:18-10:1).
Confusion may arise from the fact that in Ephesians 4:5 Paul says there is only one baptism, but elsewhere the NT seems to refer to two types of baptism: one by water and another by the HS. In His “Great Commission” Jesus tied saving faith closely to the work of water baptism when He said “Make disciples of all nations, baptizing them” (MT 28:19). Yet, in 1 Corinthians 12:13 Paul wrote that “We were all baptized by one Spirit into one body.” This suggests that spirit baptism occurs at the moment of conversion, when the HS unites the new saint (saved sinner/soul) with Christ, because “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.” (RM 8:9)
The indwelling of the HS may also be called the initial filling by the HS, because at the point of confession and conversion a person is cooperating fully with God. (See RM 6:3-7, GL 2:20) The evidence that a person has been baptized by God’s Spirit or included in Christ’s spiritual body is love in its myriad of forms (GL 5:22-23, JN 13:35). Again, because a person’s commitment to Christ is in accordance with God’s perfect will and the response of yielding to His calling (1TM 2:3-4), the moment of spiritual baptism fulfills the command of Ephesians 5:18 to be filled (cooperate fully) with the Spirit. For Christians, this stage occurred in the past historically and grammatically; we were saved when we repented and accepted Christ. It should be noted that the indwelling of the HS does not obviate the need for faith, which is the way God makes or provides for keeping believers standing firm (1CR 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, 2CR 1:20-24). In JN 17:6-12 Jesus said that the disciples knew Jesus spoke GW and knew with certainty and believed that God sent Jesus, indicating that “certainty” meant confident faith, noting that Judas was lost in order to fulfill Scripture (cf. 6:70 & 13:18, referring to PS 41:9). Also, Peter denied knowing Christ thrice, and Thomas doubted per JN 20:24-29.
The second stage is spiritual growth, which is also referred to as maturation (EPH 4:13), discipleship (ACTS 14:22) or sanctification (2THS 2:13). Grammatically it is present progressive, and historically it is the process of being saved now. This stage has two phases: instability and maturity. Although a new Spirit-filled convert has access to all of the power he/she needs for loving like Christ (EPH 3:16-19), no one attains immediate “perfection” by remaining filled with the Holy Spirit forever (PHP 3:12). Instead, the combination of temptations, ignorance and the old selfish nature results in immature saints committing their first post-conversion sin(s). Then he/she no longer is spiritual or filled with the Holy Spirit but rather is acting like unsaved unbelievers (1CR 3:1). This “venial” type of error differs from the “mortal” or damning sin of unbelief or apostasy (rejecting God’s Lordship, cf. JM 1:15).
As soon as a new Christian realizes a sin was committed, he/she should confess it (1JN 1:9) rather than compound it by trying to hide it or cover it up like Adam and Eve did (GN 3:7-8). Then God will forgive, and the saint will again be in a Spirit-filled or spiritual condition. This spiritual flip-flopping might happen once a day, or it could occur several times in an hour. While this instability may be bad, failure to confess promptly is much worse, because it results in chain-sinning or back-sliding. This condition is also referred to as being carnal/worldly (1CR 3:1) or prodigal (LK 15:13) if it continues for weeks or years.
Unfortunately, some people may not appreciate the process of being renewed morally or as Paul says (in RM 12:2) of being “transformed by the renewing of your mind”, perhaps because it involves admitting sins or having “guilt trips”. It is not guilt that is bad; rather whatever one is doing that makes one feel guilty. Guilt is like a warning light on a car’s instrument panel that lets one know something is wrong. Until we have the wisdom to welcome God’s “guilt trips” like we do warning lights, we will never feel the satisfaction of becoming a new and improved version of ourselves. Hopefully, we will never reach the point where we are so callous that we experience no guilt when we do wrong. Warnings are good!
This unstable or immature phase in a Christian’s spiritual relationship with God is followed eventually (and hopefully soon) by a second phase of relative perfection or maturity signified in the Bible (especially the King James Version) by the phrase “walking with God”. Genesis 5:24 describes Enoch as a man who walked with God, and the apostle Paul described the goal of Christians (the fullness of Christ) as walking with God (RM 6:4, GL 5:16, EPH 4:1, 1THS 4:1). Elsewhere the continually (ideally) Spirit-filled condition is referred to as walking: in light (1JN 1:7), in love (EPH 5:2), in a new life (RM 6:4), according to the Spirit (RM 8:4), and in good works (CL 1:10).
The outward evidence that someone is Spirit-filled (EPH 5:18) or walking with God is the manifestation of the fruit of the Spirit or fullness of Christ (EPH 3:19, 4:13), which consists of such attributes as those listed in Galatians 5:22-23: love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control. Jesus said “All men will know that you are my disciples if you love one another” (JN13:35), because “love” sums up the moral character of God (1JN 4:7-8).
