Understanding God’s election

Your contrarian agenda is worthy of pity.

While it is a blessing that,though you won't see it,you've just told us you are here to berate Scripture. And lead people to disbelieve God's words.

Rufus' agenda is of God's adversary.

God's love and justice were not addressed by you. The real issue is God covenantal, conditional love for his elect and his holy hatred for ALL that is evil!

And what if forgiving sin unconditionally "abets" sin? Isn't God's love eternal? Are you saying that sin is greater than God's eternal, unconditional love -- from which its objects can NEVER be separated (Rom 8:39)?

You still haven't answered my questions: Since you claim that God loves all men, regardless of their standing with Him and irrespective of their current spiritual condition, then why did God have to send his only Begotten Son into this world to atone for sin? Is it not written that "love covers a multitude of sins" (1Pet 4:8)? If this is true of the saints' love on the horizontal level, then how much more should it be for God's unconditional love on the vertical level whereby he loves sinners at least as much as he does the righteous! And maybe in your universe even more!

Also, did God love Jesus unconditionally?

And there's the issue sinners dying physically who were never aware of sin. You still haven't shown me from scripture how God could be just in allowing the very young or the mentally or emotionally handicapped to die. Isn't the wages of sin death!? But these people never knew they were sinners -- they never had a true knowledge of good and evil, so how could God allow them to die before attaining to a real knowledge of good and evil? And moreover, where do they go when they die? If you say, "heaven", then what is the judicial basis that God uses to allow them into his holy presence? Psalm 15 clearly tells us who may dwell in God's holy presence but the very young and the incompetent would not qualify for the obvious reasons stated in the Psalm.

Mat 7:7 doesn't say anything about God enabling sinners to repent and seek His salvation. Why do you continually read your presuppositions into scripture? Don't you realize that you're adding to God's Word, which is detestable to God!? And how ironic you appeal to God's enabling power when you do not believe for a nanosecond that his power that enables is efficacious. How totally duplicitous you are! Everyone here knows that you believe man's will is the final determinant in man's eternal destiny! The buck stops with the sinner, not God! So, why now do you pretend that God's enabling power is suddenly efficacious?

You truly have no shame, do you?

Out of curiosity, according to scripture and only according to scripture, what exactly happens to those sinners who, through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent?

Tom,5:13 (For until the law sin (hamartia) was in the world: but sin (hamartia) is not imputed, i.e. reckoned to one, when there is no law.

Those who "through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent" have fallen short of God's glory, i.e. of the glory God intended for mankind. But God does not impure falling short of His glory to a person's record. So, they will not be condemned to the second death at the judgment after resurrection.

And the only way that there is no longer law for someone is when they become saved: only by Christ are they taken from under the law, otherwise, not, and by law, subject to God's judgment - there is no third alternative.

[Rom 5:11, 13, 15 KJV]
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ...
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ...
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

So, a Christian is permitted to steal?

Don't think so. I believe you've misunderstood those verses.

[Rom 3:9-12 KJV]
9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

And the only way that there is no longer law for someone is when they become saved: only by Christ are they taken from under the law, otherwise, not, and by law, subject to God's judgment - there is no third alternative.

[Rom 5:11, 13, 15 KJV]
11 And not only [so], but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. ...
13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. ...
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

[1Co 15:55-57 KJV]
55 O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?
56 The sting of death [is] sin; and the strength of sin [is] the law.
57 But thanks [be] to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

[Gal 5:18 KJV] 18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

The word used for sin in verse 9 is hamartia (which means a falling short of a set goal), not paraptOma (which means a walking to the side of rather than on a path). We are told in Rom. 5 that hamartia is not imputed to those who do not have laws. So, even though all, both Jews and Gentiles, are under hamartia, hamartia is not imputed to those without law. Hamartia is not recorded against them on their credit/debit rap. sheet. And those without the law are not under paraptOma, since they have no law to transgress against and fail to walk within.

However, the passage cited in vv. 10-12 was addressed to Israel, not to the Gentiles. it is Israel whom God is accusing of having committed paraptOma, not Gentiles. So, Paul is here telling the Jews that they do not have superior righteousness to the Gentiles, but the Gentiles, guilty only of non-imputable hamartia, are less guilty before God than Israel , who are guilty of imputable paraptOma.

So, it seems that you are someone who has misunderstood those verses.

So, it seems you misunderstand salvation. Now there is only the Israel of God, and no longer a distinction between
earthly Jew and Gentile - all are subject to the same gospel and salvation -all are spiritual Jews - true Jews.

[Gal 6:16-17 KJV]
16 And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
17 From henceforth let no man trouble me: for I bear in my body the marks of the Lord Jesus.

Using only scripture, which law are people in the category under discussion under: those who "through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent" ?
The question you asked was -

rogerg said:
Out of curiosity, according to scripture and only according to scripture, what exactly happens to those sinners who, through no fault of their own, either were never in a position to hear the gospel or too infirm to comprehend/respond to it, to produce faith and repent?

Do all your cited verses apply to those people.

Why does every Jew and Gentile in Christ being Israel and under one law, the Law of Christ, imply that all Jews and Gentiles who are outside of Christ must also be under one gospel law, even those who are impaired in some way so as not to be able to understand the gospel? Which scripture says all earthly Jews and Gentiles are spiritual Jews?

I don't understand your point. My initial post was to point out the flaw in the belief that one can become saved by
their choice to believe, because should someone think that way, then what happens to those who will never have an
opportunity to make that choice, but that in no way is my belief.

The earthly Jews and Gentiles whom God has saved, has He made into spiritual Jews - true Jews. There is only one spiritual Israel comprised of spiritual Jews.

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of
rogerg said:
So, it seems you misunderstand salvation. Now there is only the Israel of God, and no longer a distinction between
earthly Jew and Gentile - all are subject to the same gospel and salvation -all are spiritual Jews - true Jews.

Sorry, but if you cannot even follow your own arguments, I have little hope that you would understand mine or anyone else's.

That is not what you said in your post. You said,

rogerg said:
So, it seems you misunderstand salvation. Now there is only the Israel of God, and no longer a distinction between
earthly Jew and Gentile - all are subject to the same gospel and salvation -all are spiritual Jews - true Jews.

Your contrarian agenda is worthy of pity.

While it is a blessing that,though you won't see it,you've just told us you are here to berate Scripture. And lead people to disbelieve God's words.

Rufus is the name in scripture of the man the Roman guard forced to carry the cross when Jesus' strength failed him. He helped the Romans kill God.



Isaiah 46:10
https://biblestudyforyou.com/bible-verses-about-predestination/
30 Powerful Bible Verses About Predestination (With Explanation)
Pastor David
July 29, 2024

The earthly Jews and Gentiles whom God has saved, has He made into spiritual Jews - true Jews. There is only one spiritual Israel comprised of spiritual Jews.

[1Pe 2:9-10 KJV]
9 But ye [are] a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

See how skilled you are at eisegesis! You even read your presuppositions into my posts.

Save your pity for yourself.