What is a church?

Noah had already found grace in the eyes of the Lord and was a just man who walked with God and a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) before he built the ark. (Genesis 6:8,9) Noah's obedience was a demonstration of his faith but not the origin of it. Building the ark saved Noah and his family physically from drowning. (Hebrews 11:7)

Paul said, we are saved by grace through faith, NOT works (Ephesians 2:8,9) yet you say we are saved by grace through faith AND works. Who should I believe? The apostle Paul or you? Faith and works do not work together in order to obtain salvation. (Romans 4:2-6) That is your eisegesis. So, salvation is by grace through faith and is not by works. To believe anything else is to miss salvation/miss the boat.

In James 2:21, notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6 (also see Romans 4:2-3) many years before his work of offering up Isaac recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. (James 2:18) That is the "sense" in which Abraham was "justified by works." (James 2:21) He was shown to be righteous.

In James 2:22, works bear out the justification that already came through faith and faith made perfect or complete by works means bring to maturity, to complete like love in 1 John 4:18. It does not mean that Abraham was finally saved many years later based on merits of his works after he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22. When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

In James 2:23 the scripture was fulfilled in vindicating or demonstrating that Abraham believed God and was accounted as righteous. Abraham was accounted as righteous based on his faith (Genesis 15:6) not his works (Romans 4:2-3) long before he offered up Isaac on the altar in Genesis 22.

Obviously, you have not read many of my posts, particularly the ones where I am trying to refute “faith only.” Ephesians 2:10 poses no problem for me, but it might for you, if you cannot prove that baptism is NOT a “good work”. In John 6:28-29 some people asked Jesus what they could do to WORK the WORKS OF GOD. Works-plural. He said that “faith” is a work of God. But there must be more works of God since that word was plural. So I will ask you the same question that Jesus asked the Pharisees; BAPTISM, is it from heaven or from men? Did Jesus COMMAND baptism in the great commission in Matthew 28:19? Baptism originated with God—not men. It is from heaven—not men. It is commanded by Jesus. If “faith” is a work of God, then Matthew 28:19 proves that “baptism” is a work of God also; along with any “work” that God commanded—like “repentance” and confession— all works of God, originating with God and commanded by God.
Read Col. 2:12-We are baptised… through faith (believing) in THE WORKING OF GOD. I can prove that baptism is one of the good “works of God” that Ephesians 2:10 says we were created for. Can you prove that baptism is NOT a work of God? Can you prove that baptism is a work of man? Can you prove that baptism is NOT from heaven? That it originated with man—not God. Can you prove that Jesus did NOT command it? And I have not even mentioned Mark 16:16 where Jesus plainly says it is necessary for salvation. My position on baptism does not contradict any other scriptures, but your position on baptism contradicts many other scriptures that teach baptism is necessary for salvation—like Acts 2:38, Mark 16:16, Acts 22:16, and 1 Peter 3:21.

Ephesians 2:10 is a problem for you, not for me.

No problem for me. Someone is saved and then does the works God prepared for them. Easy peasy. Saved, then works.

In John 6 Jesus is asked what might be done so they could do the works of God. They aren't asking what the works of God are, but how they can do them. And He tells them that they will need to believe in order to do God's works.

This makes sense on a number of levels. First, it is impossible to please God without faith. Second, we do what we believe. So until we believe God, we won't do what He says.

And that's the point: no one gets baptized until they believe what God says concerning it. So someone getting baptized already believers. In other words, they have already been saved through faith.

Noah’s spiritual salvation is not the point here. If you think I was talking about Noah’s spiritual salvation then you missed the point completely. This was a “physical salvation from a real, literal, physical death. I used that EVENT to explain how grace, faith, and works all work together to accomplish what God wanted. GOd’s grace was necessary for Noah’s salvation, but it was NOT by grace ALONE. What good would God’s Grace have done Noah if all God had done was tell him there was a flood coming that was going to kill everyone?? Noah’s “belief” in what God told him was necessary for him to be saved, too. But not “faith alone.” How could Noah be saved if God’s Grace told him about the flood, and he believed God but did nothing???? So grace and faith alone woujd not have saved Noah any more than they save anyone today by themselves. God’s grace told Noah what to do to be saved. It was a “plan”. It was God’s plan —God’s work. It wasn’t from some man. This is God telling him what to do. Without his OBEDIENCE to God’s word he would have drowned in the water. The application is the same for us. God’s grace has provided a way for us to escape the destruction of the world the second time at the second coming of Jesus. Without The sacrifice of God’s Son, we could not be saved. God’s grace did that. He provided a way for us. He has “saved” us by His grace. He has OFFERED us salvation—just like He OFFERED Noah salvation. Noah’s was PHYSICAL, while ours is SPIRITUAL. Noah had to “believe” God first in order to obey Him. If Noah had scoffed, as the people of his day laughed when he told them of the impending destruction, then Noah would have died in the flood along with everyone else. Faith in God’s word was necessary—but it was not ALL that was necessary. Noah had to obey God’s plan of salvation by building the ark. Grace and faith and works were all necessary for Noah to be saved. That’s why 1 Peter says “in like manner”. Meaning “in the same way”, (and by water) we are saved by not only believing but in OBEYING God’s commandment to be baptized. Where as Noah was told to build an ark so he could escape physical destruction, we are told to be baptised so we can escape spiritual destruction. That’s why Jesus said it takes BOTH “belief AND baptism to be saved”. Mark 16:16. And that is why Peter says “baptism saves us.” All scripture fits together harmoniously; one verse does not contradict any other verses—like 1 Peter 3:21 does not contradict John 3:16. Neither does one scripture CANCEL OUT any other scripture; Ephesians 2:7-9 does not cancel out or disprove James 2:24. Do not try to “disprove” one scripture by quoting another scripture that you think says something different. Do not “PIT” the word of God against itself! ALL of God’s word is “truth” as Psalms 119:160 says. James 2:24 is just as true as Ephesians 2:7-9. And 1 Peter 3:21 is just as true as John 3:16. There is no contradiction.

we are NOT saved by ONLY one thing, or only two things. We are saved by ALL that God says about salvation. To say that baptism does not save us when God says that it DOES save us (1 Peter 3:21) is the same as not believing the Holy Spirit. To say that baptism is not necessary to be saved, when Jesus says that belief and baptism are both necessary to be saved (Mark 16:16) is the same as not believing Jesus. It means you don’t believe the word of God. That is a serious sin.

I don’t know what version you are reading but the NKJ says in John 6:29 that faith is a work—not that you must have faith to do work as you have said. Those are two entirely different things. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and not accuse you of trying to “twist” the scriptures to suit your doctrine, but the meaning there is that “faith” is one of the works of God that we must do. Jesus’s answer to these people was, “ THIS IS THE WORK OF GOD THAT YOU BELIEVE.” This is not the only scripture that says faith is a work. 1 Thess. 1:3 talks about their “WORK OF FAITH” AND 2 Thess. 1:11, again, the “WORK OF FAITH.” THUS, proving that the Holy Spirit considers Faith a work of God. Just as the Holy Spirit in John 6:29 has also said. SO, if as most Calvinist’s, you condemn all works, then you are condemning faith also.

Yes, baptism is for believers as Mark 16:16 says and as Phillip said to the Ethiopian Eunuch in Acts 8:37–“If you believe, you may ( be baptized.).” Your error is in thinking that faith only saves you, without baptism; when James 2:24 plainly tells you that it does NOT. And Jesus plainly tells you that it takes BOTH faith and baptism to be saved. (Mark 16:16) Jesus clearly puts baptism BEFORE salvation , NOT AFTER salvation as Satan wants you to believe. Think about it. If God says baptism saves you, (1 Peter 3:21), you can expect Satan to say that it does Not save you. Isn’t that just exactly what happened in the garden of Eden? God said, “ you shall die.” Satan said, “ You shall NOT die.” That should tell you who is the source of this doctrine of salvation without baptism. It certainly isn’t God. God has already gone on record saying that baptism saves us. It’s up to you who you are going to believe. Don’t make the same mistake that Eve did.

No, God's Grace is what saves us, through our Faith in Him; And then we WANT to do good works in His name.

Faith is a work of God. Faith is the result of hearing, and that by the word of God. Does one give themselves hearing, or does the word of God do this?

Salvation is a supernatural phenomenon, and not the work of men.

They can't be saved. Jesus didn't come as an angel and die on their behalf.
Also, their belief is not faith in that it did not result from faith. They know who Jesus is because they saw Him in heaven. They haven't believed in Him for salvation.

So, you admit that Noah was spiritually saved by grace through faith and not by works?

I never said it was grace alone.

If Noah would not have believed God about flooding the earth and he did nothing (did not build the ark) then Noah and his family would have drowned in the flood waters, but of course, that was not the case. In regard to us being saved spiritually, we are saved by grace through faith, not works. (Ephesians 2:8,9) Hence, faith alone. You might cry out, oh no it can't be that simple. We must do something! Yet Christ already did it all to provide salvation. His finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. (Romans 3:24-28) No supplements needed. You seem determined to do something and help Jesus save you/help save yourself and take credit. Let the boasting begin.

I see where you are going with this. You teach salvation by grace through faith + work in contradiction to Ephesians 2:8,9. In Romans 4:4-6, we read - Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: In Romans 11:6, we read - And if by grace, then it is no longer of works; otherwise grace is no longer grace. But if it is of works, it is no longer grace; otherwise work is no longer work.

Physically. Noah was already saved spiritually.

Your eisegesis here culminates in salvation by works. If water baptism was absolutely necessary for salvation, then God would not make so many statements in which He promises salvation to those who simply BELIEVE. (Luke 8:12; John 1:12; 3:15,16,18,36; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26; Acts 10:43; 13:39; 16:31; Romans 1:16; 4:5; 10:4; 1 Corinthians 1:21; Hebrews 10:39; 1 John 5:13 etc..). What did Jesus say in John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

That is your eisegesis. We escape spiritual destruction through believing/placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation. Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins. Acts 13:38 - Therefore, let it be known to you, brethren, that through this Man is preached to you the forgiveness of sins; 39 and by Him everyone who believes is justified from all things from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses. Acts 26:18 - to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.

Continued..

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the 1 requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

Why did you stop reading in 1 Peter 3:21? When Peter uses this phrase, he continues in the same sentence to explain exactly what he means by it. He said that baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh (that is, not as an outward, physical act which washes dirt from the body--that is not what saves you), "but an appeal to God for a good conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ" (that is, as an inward, spiritual transaction between God and the individual, a transaction that is symbolized by the outward ceremony of water baptism).

Just as the eight people in the ark were "saved THROUGH water" as they were IN THE ARK. They were not literally saved "by" the water. Hebrews 11:7 is clear on this point (..built an ARK for the SAVING of his household). *The context reveals that ONLY the righteous (Noah and his family) were DRY and therefore SAFE. In contrast, only the wicked in Noah's day came in contact with the water and they all perished.

So, by Peter saying, "not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience - through the resurrection of Jesus Christ," Peter guards against saving power to the physical ceremony in H20 itself. Baptism is a symbol of salvation in that it pictures Christ's death, burial and resurrection and our identification with Him in these experiences. In reality, believers are literally saved by what baptism symbolizes--Christ's death, burial and resurrection. Baptism would have no meaning without Christ’s death, burial and resurrection, but Christ’s death, burial and resurrection would still have meaning, even if there were no baptism. In other words, Christ’s death, burial and resurrection is the substance and baptism is the symbol/picture. Without the substance there would be no symbol/picture.

A man and a woman become united through their wedding vows and the ring symbolizes this. Just as we become united with Christ through faith and water baptism symbolizes this. Strictly speaking, the husband is united to his wife because of the marriage vows rather than the ring. Yet since the latter is the sign of their union, it is natural to speak of the ring to mean the reality it represents. "With this ring, I thee wed," although the ring is not the actual cause of the change in the marital status, just like water baptism is not the actual cause of our salvation status.

We must always properly harmonize scripture with scripture before reaching our conclusion on doctrine. In James 2:24, James is not using the word "justified" here to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous. James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God. (Romans 4:2-3) So, neither Ephesians 2:8,9 nor James 2:24 get cancelled out. They are in perfect harmony. Misinterpreting James 2:24 to mean we are accounted as righteous/saved by works cancels out Romans 4:2-3 and Ephesians 2:8,9.

That is what you do, and the end result is salvation by works.

Amen!

When properly interpreted, true.

All that God says or all that the church of Christ says? I've heard this same sales pitch numerous times before. This is not my first rodeo.

Your problem is all you did was read the first part of the verse then ignore the rest that gives us the true meaning of verse.

Jesus clarifies the first clause of Mark 16:16 with but he who does not believe will be condemned. Jesus did not say he who is not baptized will be condemned and Jesus did not even mention baptism in John 3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11;25,26. Your method of flawed hermeneutics misses the mark and disregards the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation to everyone that BELIEVES.. (Romans 1:16) You are obsessed with water baptism.

I believe the word of God. I just don't believe your eisegesis.

Your initial logic isn't sound and now you are qualifying it unscripturally by your words alone. If it only takes belief, then they, the demons, believed. So, its not just belief that saves. And as I stated, im sure they have faith in Christ too, since they know he CAN do what he says. Then what's the dividing or separating factor that clarifies and augments belief? It's baptism! You can believe and have faith just as tge demons, but that alone doesn't mean you belong to the Lord. Those that believed were baptized into Christ, unlike the demons who obviously weren't and never will be. It's at that point of baptism that you show where your allegiance lies through obedience; and it's also at that point that you become owned by Christ and a Christian and child of God. Baptism is the qualifying factor.

To be saved one must believe the gospel. The passage doesn't say that demons believed the gospel. It says they believe there is one God. Where does it say in the scripture that believing there is one God results in salvation?

Do you believe there is a way of salvation for fallen angels?

You're now twisting things and asking answerable questions. The simple issue is 'belief', and does that alone suffice to be saved. And James clearly indicates belief is not enough, there's more because devils believe as well. And James is referring to belief in God not the gospel.

No. Simply believing is not the issue. The object of faith is always in view. Believing that when you sit down on a chair you will not fall will not save you. Believing that God exists and is the only real God does not save you either. Believing in the life, death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus, and all that this entails can save an individual.

The verse says what it does. To disregard a portion of it leads to error.

Do you believe demons can be saved? Why or why not?

Dumb question, to which i won't respond. It doesn't matter what I believe or don't believe or you on such a question

Thanks for sharing. Have a blessed day.

In the gospels demons seemed to be what today are called mental illnesses or physical disabilities.
In the epistles demons were called deceiving spirits (1TM 4:1) and seem to be evil angels (RM 8:38, JM 2:19, RV 9:20).
Many humans are demonic or doers of evil aka sinners, but they may repent if they can be condemned justly.

There is a difference between believing "mental assent" that "there is one God" (James 2:19) and believing in/on the Lord Jesus Christ and being saved. (Acts 16:31) The demons believe the former but not the latter. Just like there is a difference between believing "mental assent" that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" and believing in/trusting in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) The demons believe the former but not the latter.