What is a church?

Even where physical acts are required by God, it is the Spirit who does the action upon an individual.
Did Peter heal the lame man or did God? Even if you believe water baptism is required for salvation, it would still be the Spirit who placed a believer into Christ.

I wasn't talking about faith in answering the post. I was speaking concerning spiritual and physical reality.
Faith is evidenced in what someone does. People act upon what they believe.
Apply this to baptism. Does someone get baptized who doesn't believe they should? Or do they believe they should and then get baptized?

Belief of anything precedes action based upon that belief. But action will always follow genuine belief when it is called for.

I'm not disputing that at all, but its imperative that we first do our part which is being obedient; once done, God will do his part, but not 'till we obey. We can't and don't save ourselves, nevertheless, we must do what's required/commanded of us which some erroneously term "works".

We all are Christians, but it should be evident that your denomination believes WB is necessary for salvation, which contradicts most of Scripture, including NT teachings that souls are saved by faith rather than by works such as WB. Basing belief on historical passages (Acts) more than on doctrinal ones (epistles) is a problematic hermeneutic.

“People act upon what they believe.
Apply this to baptism. Does someone get baptized who doesn't believe they should? Or do they believe they should and then get baptized?”

right if a person hears the gospel and believes what they have heard ……they will act upon it because they believe what he said would result from the action

Like Noah ….God told Noah this after he gave him grace

“But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.

And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. ( note God isn’t taking the blame he’s blaming and holding accountable , the creatures he gave dominion on earth )

And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.


Make thee an ark of gopher wood;


( he gives Noah a long list of detailed instruction for Noah to do )

And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. ( the nt says thisnis going to happen again but with fire from heaven )

But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee.

……Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭6:8, 12-14, 17-18, 22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then you have salvation by faith because God spoke the truth to Noah and gave him grace and instruction to be saved

if Noah believed him of course he would act because it meant he and his family would survive and have a new covenant with God.

But if Noah hadn’t believed what it actually was that God said to him then he isn’t going to build the ark it would have taken a lot of labor and time and effort and commitment to build the ark it boiled down to what Noah believed .


Did he believe what God said about the coming fate of the world ? And how he could save himself and his family ? Or did he believe the voice telling him he didn’t need to build an ark there was another way ? Or God will build it for you ! “

instead noah had faith so he acted on what god Had said to him warning him of the flood to come and how to prepare and be saved . Noah didn’t ignore his word of warning it moved him to action

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That’s our inheritance also in Christ we have to hear the word of God hear meaning “ learn from and listen to him as of hes speaking the truth and then apply those lessons to our life “ that’s walking by faith .

we do it not like the law because he said “if you don’t do this I’ll destroy you “ but we do it because we listen to what Jesus and his apostles were actually promising beside all the instructions and believe what they are saying

the simplest form to see it in is something like baptism

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭

imagine another person standing up yelling “ no one needs to be baptized for remission of sins in Jesus name . It’s just a symbol of your faith “

even though when a person says something like “ water doesn’t save anyone “ that’s absolutely true water doesn’t save souls. But the thing is what it’s actually doing is taking the value away from the message about baptism

the nt actually explains baptism thoroughly and it has many important aspects taught by Paul and the apostles like

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Or this

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ( they acted in faith and got baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins )

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:

Or here

“And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, ( remission of sins ) wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”( remission of sins )
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:

yes Cameron your right there we have to believe first and then We should be acting upon it willingly . The problem is the message is all wacky and discombobulated now lady’s …it’s gotten away from the truth like Paul warned

“I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.

For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We should spend time in this forum learni what the bible teaches about subjects like baptism for remission of sins . But there’s always the argument “ that’s a work not faith nonone needs to do anything ect ect …”

aid people just learned what baptism means and is for them they would run to get baptized because of gods promise with it being remission of sins in his name

By accepting Christ Jesus as Lord does NOT mean you're in Christ at that point. or place you in Christ. There's only one way according to scripture by which you can be "in Christ", and that's by baptism into him, which is his body consisting of other obedient believers. See below short study.

"In Christ": What does it really mean?

The words “in Christ” and similar, i.e.; “in Jesus Christ”, “in Christ Jesus”, “in him’, are used ad nauseam within the Christian world with hardly anyone ever giving any thought whatsoever as to what the words really mean or entail, thus relegating them to nothing more than Christian “buzz words” that sound good and Christian-like.

So what do these words really mean? What does it mean to be “in Christ” and how does one get “in Christ” or into Christ? Is there a specific way stated in the bible? Are there unique benefits for being “in Christ” once one has achieved that state of being “in him”? Are there benefits available to those not being “in Christ”? Can you receive spiritual blessings without being “in Christ”?

These are logical questions that should be asked or considered when one sees or uses these or similar words inferring the same.

There are 146 references in the New Testament (may not be all inclusive, but close if not) using these exact or similar words as those mentioned above. If mentioned that frequently and to that extent, it must be of great importance, so likewise, all should render like importance to these words when using them, clearly understanding what they truly mean and entail.

Consider the suffix “ian” attached to the word “Christ” to become the word Christian; what does "ian" attached to the end a word mean or indicate? One of its meanings is 'from or belonging to'. As it pertains to Christ, it indicates that a Christian is from or belonging to, or in other words, owned by Christ! It should be noted too that the word “Christian” doesn’t mean a believer in or follower of Christ, but rather really means owned by Christ. So, you could be a believer in and follower of Jesus, practice some form of “Christian” religious worship, be devout, moral, etc. etc, but not be owned by Him, not “in him”.

Note that the bible says the following:

1 Cor 6:20 "For ye are bought with a price:"

Acts 20:28 “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood."

The above clearly states that Christ purchased or bought the church with His own blood, so it's clear that Christians, those owned by Christ, those that are part of his body (the church), have been bought and paid for by his blood which was the price he paid for them who are now “in him”. Therefore, those that are “in” the church are His, and are “in him”.

What are some of the benefits that being owned by or “in Christ” bestowed upon you that are unable to be conferred in any other way according to scripture?

• Be saved, receive redemption, have your sins remitted and added to the Lord’s body which is the church
• Be buried/planted with Him in the likeness of his death thus enabling like resurrection
• Put on Christ and become a Christian and child of God
• Receive the Holy Spirit, spiritual gifts, blessings, have hope, and be made alive in Him

So, how do you become owned by, “in Christ”, and part of the church? The fact of the matter is, there is one specific way mentioned in the bible as to what one must do to be “in Christ” as well as benefits for being “in him” that can only be realized thereby: by baptism.

Rom 6:3 “Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death”?

Gal 3:26/27 “For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ”.

1st Cor 12:13 “For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Rom 6:4 “Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life”.

Col 2:12 “Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead”.

Rom 6:5 “For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection”:

Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost”. 41 “Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls”. 47 “Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.”

• Christ’s body is the church of which He is the head (Col 1:18, Eph 5:23);
• You become part of the church by becoming a part of His body. You become part of His body by being baptized into it.
• In it (His body, the church), you obtain spiritual blessings (Eph 1:3).
• Are you really a Christian without being part of His body, the church, which you are added to upon being baptized (Acts 2:41, 47)?
• If you’re not buried with Him through baptism, can you then still be raised with Him?
Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android

Re "By accepting Christ Jesus as Lord does NOT mean you're in Christ at that point. or place you in Christ. There's only one way according to scripture by which you can be "in Christ", and that's by baptism into him.": It is too bad Paul was not aware of that when he wrote EPH 1:3-14, mentioning "in Christ" numerous times without saying WB was required even once.[/QUOTE

Ok, below is the scripture you cited. What does it have to do with how one gets to be "in Christ"? Nothing! What is the context of this scripture? What does it have to do with telling one how to get "in Christ"?? Once again, NOTHING! YOUR POINT IS LESS THAN REDICULOUS BY CITING THIS SCRIPTURE!

Wasn't Noah saved the moment he believed? God had already conferred His grace upon Noah.
The reason we can know that Noah believed is because he did what God said.
While it is true that if Noah had not built the ark that he wouldn't have been saved, but neither would it have been true that he actually believed God and would not have had faith.

The ark is a picture of Christ. In Him, we are secure. It was God Himself who closed the door of the ark.

“Wasn't Noah saved the moment he believed? “

No , read what this says

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭

God told him what to do and he moved with fear knowing the flood was coming to the saving of his house . And also he wasn’t already an hier he became one by faith like we do

again look what peters saying to rehear people

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, ( do this )


and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. ( receive this gift promised by Jesus ) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-40‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s simple . Having Faith is the reason we obey God . It isn’t the reason or excuse as to why we don’t need to.

here’s a good example of how faith can save us

“Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful. Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:36-38‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s faith when we begin to hear the message like above there and act upon it believing the promise it holds Jesus words always do like this

Judge not, ( action )and ye shall not be judged resulting promise ) condemn not, ( action ) and ye shall not be condemned: ( resulting promise ) forgive, ( action ) and ye shall be forgiven resulting promise )


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized ( action ) shall be saved; ( resulting promise )

but he that believeth not ( action ) shall be damned.”( resulting promise )
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-

like Noah “ build the ark as I tell you and you and your family will be saved from the flood “

He was saved when he obeyed and built and got in the ark. If he hadn’t done the action he would have drown lacking faith and wouldn’t have become the hier of righteousness of faith

It is Paul's message (plus EPH 4:5 & 1CR 12:13); don't shoot the messenger!

Noah wasn't saved by grace but works?

He was saved from physical death temporarily by his works. He was saved spiritually through grace.

If you're suggesting that because the scripture says he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, then that means we're automatically in Christ, nullyfying the need to be baptized into the body of Christ as the scriptures say; then why would we have to do anything at all, like accept Jesus as Lord as you suggested? Because he knew in advance (God's foreknowledge), doesn't mean we do nothing here, including preach, teach, save souls, evangelize, etc, it simply means he knew prior to our doing these things what the outcome would be; but we must DO them. God knew in advance who would and wouldn't be saved ultimately, but we still have to live out the tasks set before us and let the things unfold to fulfill that which was already known by God.

“Noah wasn't saved by grace but works?”

That’s not what I said . I said God gave Noah grace then he told him what was coming and what to do and promised salvation and a new covenant .

Noah was saved by faith and also became an hier of the righteousness of faith because he believed and obeyed god . That’s what faith is

“By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Noah was saved because he heard and believed what was about to happen to the world and what God said would save him and his family and acted upon it. His faith wasn’t dead he acted upon it

Noah understood what God said is true he believed the world was coming to an end by a flood , because of that belief God gave him by simply telling Noah ….

So Noah moved with fear and dedicated his life to building a boat as God commanded him. he did that by faith, to the result of exactly what god promised him . He and his family were saved from the end of thier world. and then they received a new covenant. Just as God said would happen

But Noah’s actions were absolutely essential to his salvation yes he had to hear and believe Gods word tbat the flood was coming and then act upon the instructions he gave him for saving his family and he did it , by faith .


but what saved him was acting on what God said would save him from the condemnation upon mankind at that time

for us what he’s said will save us from the condemnation coming ….is this
Same thing that saved Noah the seed of faith

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

noah heard Gods word also but he believed what God said to him and acted upon it by that real belief . Noe it’s important Jesus isn’t saying “ agree with this single verse “ he’s saying listen to my word , hear my teachings and believe in me “

As we do that we begin to learn about the real and true God Our Father in heaven as believers in him who listen to what he’s saying

“And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭23:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name…. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

but if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭6:9, 12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭16:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Bit also Jesus taught a lot of warnings like this about his word

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭9:26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It comes down to what God actually promised believers in the gospel brother that can save us if we listen and believe it

but this stuff like this is part of his word we need to hear and believe

“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we believe that , we’ll take repentence seriously and begin to act upon that belief

“and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭5:9‬ ‭

That flood is coming still a new one

“in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We need to actually hear what God is warning us about in his word and what he’s saying will save us in his word to believe it is the thing. Like Noah did he only was prepared for the flood because God gave grace and warned him about it , and how to be saved

Noah's actions were necessary for his physical salvation and evidence of his belief in God...which is, in my understanding, spiritual salvation. And God's coming to Noah may be the closest resemblance to what Paul in Ephesians 2:8-10 says looks like. He found grace in the eyes of the Lord. The Lord spoke, Noah heard, and faith was the result. Believing God, Noah did the works God prepared for him to do.

Right eggzactly . God spoke to Noah because Noah found grace in his eyes like sinners have . God spoke to sinners in the gospel because he’s given grace to all mankind and so he spoke

Brother it’s exactly like Noah the New Testament uses boys example to teach what faith is it isn’t me telling you from genesis 6 it’s the New Testament telling us in Hebrews about faith using Noah as an example of faith and how Noah was saved by faith when he listened to Gods word and acted upon it and was saved. You keep referencing physical salvation but Noah became the heir of the righteousness of faith


That’s what chrortoans are offered in the nt is the point exactly what Noah inherited through his faith

Read Hebrews 11 it teaches believers in the nt bout faith and it’s operation it’s why it’s mentioning Noah here

“But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:6-7‬ ‭

that’s our righteousness is the point

“For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, ( Jesus ) through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭4:13‬ ‭

“What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

gentiles never had the law of Moses so they had only the righteousness of faith that is , hearing and believing the gospel and of course acting upon the belief like we’ve been talking about

God offers us faith by speaking the gospel to man , he gives us strength and understanding of him by preaching the gospel to us he gives us hope and a new identity as the children of God by what he preached in the gospel ect

as we hear the gospel we need to accept what he’s saying like Noah did whether it’s a warning about the flood like this

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭

Or if it’s about how to build the ark and be saved from that coming “flood “

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be ( shall (in the future at the end of the world ) damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬


We are saved by grace because Jesus came to die for our sins not because we’re any good or worthy but because he is we did nothing to cause Jesus to give his life for us

now will we believe what he said is coming ? And how to be saved from it and inherit eternal life ? Like Noah did

were saved by grace through faith like Noah was his action was part of the faith he received from the word of God. Had he been told by someone else after “ you don’t need to do the work you have faith “ they would have been lying to him and leading him to his doom






if Noah hadn’t actually acted it would not have saved him

1 Corinthians 12:8-31

8For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; 9To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit; 10To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues: 11But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.12For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. 13For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.14For the body is not one member, but many.

20But now are they many members, yet but one body.

27Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.28And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues. 29Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of miracles? 30Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all interpret? 31But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way.

Noah wasn't saved by grace but works?

He was saved from physical death temporarily by his works. He was saved spiritually through grace.

It was the grace of God that informed Noah about the impending destruction and the grace of God that provided a way to escape. Grace would not have done Noah any good at all if he had not obeyed God in building the ark. God’s grace and God’s works go together to accomplish what God wants. As James says, faith and works work together for salvation. God’s grace provided a way, Noah had to “believe” God when God said I am going to destroy the world, and Noah had to work to “build the ark as God had said to do. Grace, faith, and works—it takes all 3. All Satan has to do is convince you to leave just one or more out to have you “miss the boat.”