Some of the OT can be hard to stomach

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Believer08

Active member
Jan 27, 2025
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#62
Yes, but not understanding how they jibed bothered me and my witness to atheists, so I am happy God enabled me to sew some Scriptural together than seems sufficiently reasonable to me.

(I can's say any atheists were ever swayed by me sharing it though :^(
Amen…
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#63
The problem is that we have no knowledge from Scripture that those too young to be morally accountable, repent of sin
They have no sin to repent of...

the remaining possibilities are either that they simply pass out of existence or else they are judged on the basis of God's foreknowledge regarding what they would have done/believed if they had survived into the stage of accountability.

Right?
Wrong.. Gods foreknowedge simply means He foreknows their lives before they where born.. If they die as an infant then He only knows the very short life they where to live..
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
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#65
Just as God imputes the righteousness of Christ upon those who believe, He also imputed the unrighteousness of Adam on all who come into this world. We all come into this world dead in trespasses, are dominated by Satan, and are under the wrath of God...Ephesians 2:1-3.
We need a Savior the moment we are conceived; not the moment we sin for the first time.
I disagree.. Sin comes when one attains the knowledge of good and evil.. people live for a time without this knowledge..

(Romans 7:8-10) "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. {9} For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. {10} And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

Paul wrote He was alive without the Law once,,, When did the commandments come? Where they not in existence long before He was born? But again Paul was alive once without the Law.. But when did the law Bring death to Paul? When he passed the age of innocents and the knowledge of Good and evil entered into is conscience..
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#66
I disagree.. Sin comes when one attains the knowledge of good and evil.. people live for a time without this knowledge..

(Romans 7:8-10) "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. {9} For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. {10} And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

Paul wrote He was alive without the Law once,,, When did the commandments come? Where they not in existence long before He was born? But again Paul was alive once without the Law.. But when did the law Bring death to Paul? When he passed the age of innocents and the knowledge of Good and evil entered into is conscience..
Ok.
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#67
Could we apply Jeremiah 18:7-8 for the chance for them to repent and Genesis 15:16 (because they did not) to the Moabites, Canaanites, Amalekites, etc etc?
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#70
I disagree.. Sin comes when one attains the knowledge of good and evil.. people live for a time without this knowledge..

(Romans 7:8-10) "But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. {9} For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. {10} And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death."

Paul wrote He was alive without the Law once,,, When did the commandments come? Where they not in existence long before He was born? But again Paul was alive once without the Law.. But when did the law Bring death to Paul? When he passed the age of innocents and the knowledge of Good and evil entered into is conscience..
Just for consideration: John 3:18 says those who do not believe are already under condemnation. Do you believe anyone is born believing? Until someone does believe, are they under the wrath of God as Ephesians 2:3 suggests?
 
Jul 4, 2021
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#71
No I don't. Neither are they synonyms. I was merely pointing out that while God must always act righteously, He doesn't have to act lovingly.
And you are the only person I've ever come across who believes God casting someone into the lake of fire is an act of love.
I also think it's an act of love- specifically an act of love toward the saints to separate them from the presence of sin forever.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#72
I also think it's an act of love- specifically an act of love toward the saints to separate them from the presence of sin forever.
That can be argued and I have no problem with that. My only point is that every action of God is not an exhibition of love towards all.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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#73
They have no sin to repent of...



Wrong.. Gods foreknowedge simply means He foreknows their lives before they where born.. If they die as an infant then He only knows the very short life they where to live..
We are speculating rather than citing teaching in GW.
 
Jul 24, 2016
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#74
Just for consideration: John 3:18 says those who do not believe are already under condemnation. Do you believe anyone is born believing? Until someone does believe, are they under the wrath of God as Ephesians 2:3 suggests?
I believe the verse you are giving along with others are directed at people who are mature enough to accept or reject the WORD of God.. The Word is directed to people who Need the Message.. People who have the knowledge of good and evil..
 
Jul 4, 2021
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#75
I disagree.. Sin comes when one attains the knowledge of good and evil.. people live for a time without this knowledge..
You can't isolate v.8-10. The whole rest of the chapter explains that the law exposes the sin that is already there. The sin is "dead" beforehand because it doesn't compel you to act in a way that is contrary to your desires- until you learn the law and desire to keep it in order to be holy like you are supposed to be; then the sinful flesh overpowers the desire to keep the law- so then you see that you are really 'dead' and sin is living in your place. Simply not having faith is sin enough to condemn us all from the start.
 
Jul 24, 2016
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#76
You can't isolate v.8-10. The whole rest of the chapter explains that the law exposes the sin that is already there. The sin is "dead" beforehand because it doesn't compel you to act in a way that is contrary to your desires- until you learn the law and desire to keep it in order to be holy like you are supposed to be; then the sinful flesh overpowers the desire to keep the law- so then you see that you are really 'dead' and sin is living in your place. Simply not having faith is sin enough to condemn us all from the start.
If your doctrine where true then you would resist sin without failure each and every day.. You would never sin and you would never fail to do the Good things the LORD told you to do.. Remember failing to do the good deeds is sin.. Of course you and i am everyone else taking part in this thread will sin today and will sin tomorrow.. So the doctrine you are preaching above will see to it that you condemned because as you judge so shall you be judged..
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#77
I believe the verse you are giving along with others are directed at people who are mature enough to accept or reject the WORD of God.. The Word is directed to people who Need the Message.. People who have the knowledge of good and evil..
I appreciate your response.

What I'm trying to understand is at what point do these various things the Bible speaks of take place for an individual. So for example, John 3:18 states that those in unbelief are under condemnation. Since no one is born believing, why aren't little one's subject to this condemnation? In Ephesians, those before salvation are spoken of as dead in trespasses and sins. If they aren't spiritually dead at birth, when then? If you are a parent, you will know that children lie and disobey very young. Or was Adam's sin already attributed to them? If not, how can infants die having never sinned? Further, if children are not under condemnation at birth, doesn't there exist situation where some in unbelief are not under condemnation?
 
Jan 27, 2025
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#78
Little ones aren’t subject to condemnation because they committed no sin at birth. I have never known a baby, toddler, or a little child who has not reached the knowledge of knowing what is good and evil (Deut. 1:39) to willingly commit a work of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21). If babies are sinners, do they become sinners the very first second they come into this world? The first 5 seconds? Sin is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). What sin at birth did a baby knowingly commit?

What sin did a baby commit in the following passages? 1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21, and Rev. 21:8.

The scriptures teach that sin is committed (Jms 2:9, 1 John 5:16). Not inherited. Sin is a transgression of the law (1 Jhn 3:4). An infant did nothing to transgress the law by being born, nor did it commit any sin by being born.

If we are automatically born sinners due to Adam, then is Adam’s sin greater than the righteous act of Christ, which would automatically give babies eternal life?

Something to think about.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
21,187
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#79
Little ones aren’t subject to condemnation because they committed no sin at birth. I have never known a baby, toddler, or a little child who has not reached the knowledge of knowing what is good and evil (Deut. 1:39) to willingly commit a work of the flesh (Gal. 5:19-21). If babies are sinners, do they become sinners the very first second they come into this world? The first 5 seconds? Sin is a transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). What sin at birth did a baby knowingly commit?

What sin did a baby commit in the following passages? 1 Cor. 6:9-10, Gal. 5:19-21, and Rev. 21:8.

The scriptures teach that sin is committed (Jms 2:9, 1 John 5:16). Not inherited. Sin is a transgression of the law (1 Jhn 3:4). An infant did nothing to transgress the law by being born, nor did it commit any sin by being born.

If we are automatically born sinners due to Adam, then is Adam’s sin greater than the righteous act of Christ, which would automatically give babies eternal life?

Something to think about.
Then why do some die?
 

lrs68

Active member
Dec 30, 2024
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#80
Some of the OT passages can be difficult to stomach. Especially where God tells Saul to destroy nations (which would include babies and animals in 1 Samuel 15), when He told Moses to hang people before the LORD against the sun in Numbers 25:4, and the stuff in Deuteronomy 20:13-17.

Anyone have any advice on how to harmonize those passages with the holiness and goodness of God?
Look at the history of each Nation. They completely rejected God and represented a type of Sin.