Wrath
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Nah 1:2
God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Rom 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
God is jealous, and the LORD revengeth; the LORD revengeth, and is furious; the LORD will take vengeance on his adversaries, and he reserveth wrath for his enemies.
Rom 12:19
Dearly beloved, avenge not yourselves, but rather give place unto wrath: for it is written, Vengeance is mine; I will repay, saith the Lord.
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In this age of so many who are "vengeful," it strikes me that true revenge is no revenge at all.
I believe we are mixing wrath with correction.
As a believer in our Savior, when and if anything occurs in my personal walk that seems sad or painful, my remedy has always been to thank the Father for such. Most times, no, all of the time, He gives us understanding, and what seemed pain becomes joy in Yeshua.
I believe we are mixing wrath with correction.
As a believer in our Savior, when and if anything occurs in my personal walk that seems sad or painful, my remedy has always been to thank the Father for such. Most times, no, all of the time, He gives us understanding, and what seemed pain becomes joy in Yeshua.
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I am speaking from the first-person. It is not vengeance for me to anticipate God's wrath upon one who has sinned and injured millions of people including me. The injury is deep, deliberate, and done with arrogance and impunity. Vengeance is God's, not mine. For me His wrath is unearned and unmerited. It is a grace.
The saints under the alter cry out "How long Oh Lord."
The saints under the alter cry out "How long Oh Lord."
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Just be careful how you apply that. And please pardon me if I have missed something in your prior exchanges.
Note God's heart:
2 Peter 3:9 HCSB
[9] The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
Note the importance of timing in judgment:
1 Corinthians 4:5 NIV
[5] Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
And note how what you do in your heart is guilt-wise the same as what you do in the physical:
Matthew 5:27-28 NIV
[27] “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ [28] But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Also, even the verse that you reference from Revelation allows for God's evaluation being yet to come, though this isn't crystal clear since the word 'judge' can have the loose definition that includes the consequences of the judgment, or the tight definition of only the evaluation itself. In light of the verse from Corinthians, though, I believe it has the latter meaning in Revelation.
Revelation 6:9-10 NIV
[9] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. [10] They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Therefore, there is likely a distinction between longing for God to judge the inhabitants of the Earth as a whole, and longing for him to judge and sentence a particular person, which would be a premature judgment on an individual, and by you rather than God.
Note God's heart:
2 Peter 3:9 HCSB
[9] The Lord does not delay His promise, as some understand delay, but is patient with you, not wanting any to perish but all to come to repentance.
Note the importance of timing in judgment:
1 Corinthians 4:5 NIV
[5] Therefore judge nothing before the appointed time; wait until the Lord comes. He will bring to light what is hidden in darkness and will expose the motives of the heart. At that time each will receive their praise from God.
And note how what you do in your heart is guilt-wise the same as what you do in the physical:
Matthew 5:27-28 NIV
[27] “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ [28] But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
Also, even the verse that you reference from Revelation allows for God's evaluation being yet to come, though this isn't crystal clear since the word 'judge' can have the loose definition that includes the consequences of the judgment, or the tight definition of only the evaluation itself. In light of the verse from Corinthians, though, I believe it has the latter meaning in Revelation.
Revelation 6:9-10 NIV
[9] When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. [10] They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
Therefore, there is likely a distinction between longing for God to judge the inhabitants of the Earth as a whole, and longing for him to judge and sentence a particular person, which would be a premature judgment on an individual, and by you rather than God.
Your points are well made and valid. I do not believe celebrating God's judgement is the same as seeking my own vengeance. Seeking justice is not seeking revenge, but perhaps that is a very thin line. We are human, we feel real human pain, injustice hurts. I have rest only in God's grace.
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While I am not the party that you were asking of this, I too tend to believe that justice and grace are the same thing? Here is how I understand it, in case you are interested.
While final judgment is God's, God has taught me a lot about righteous judgment as He has called me to it.
First off, there is a level of judgment that is really intended to be a wake-up call for people to repent. If your kid steals a cookie from the cookie jar, you have judgment and consequences for him because you want him to learn to do better. This was often how God dealt with people in the Old Testament times (ex. Ezek. 6:7 and 14 in context). In fact this kind of judgment is actually a type of favor because God is contending with you to bring you to righteousness. (Hebrews 12.)
Also, though not from a direct lesson from God, as I feel it out, a lack of either restitution, or repentance and grace, feels to me to be spiritually unbalanced to the detriment of both parties. Thus a judgment to correct the imbalance has a level of grace in it, at least in my view, which is probably highly related to what I discussed in the previous paragraph.
Finally, God says the wages of sin are death (Rom. 6:23), and suggests that whosoever does not believe on Jesus will perish (John 3:16, Rom. 6:21-22). When someone refuses to repent, they end up causing both themselves and everyone around them harm. Clearly such a person could not go on living with others in heaven or it wouldn't be heaven. But more than that, just continuing to exist will cause them misery themself if they aren't interested in walking in the truth. Therefore I believe it is actually a kindness (grace) to put them out of their misery by letting them perish.
I do realize that on this last point, my view of God's final judgment/wrath is not the prevailing view. I have studied this issue extensively, however, and believe the more common view - that of eternal suffering, to be a mere tradition rooted in coercion. But obviously you would need to seek God and study up on this issue for yourself to be properly convinced.
While final judgment is God's, God has taught me a lot about righteous judgment as He has called me to it.
First off, there is a level of judgment that is really intended to be a wake-up call for people to repent. If your kid steals a cookie from the cookie jar, you have judgment and consequences for him because you want him to learn to do better. This was often how God dealt with people in the Old Testament times (ex. Ezek. 6:7 and 14 in context). In fact this kind of judgment is actually a type of favor because God is contending with you to bring you to righteousness. (Hebrews 12.)
Also, though not from a direct lesson from God, as I feel it out, a lack of either restitution, or repentance and grace, feels to me to be spiritually unbalanced to the detriment of both parties. Thus a judgment to correct the imbalance has a level of grace in it, at least in my view, which is probably highly related to what I discussed in the previous paragraph.
Finally, God says the wages of sin are death (Rom. 6:23), and suggests that whosoever does not believe on Jesus will perish (John 3:16, Rom. 6:21-22). When someone refuses to repent, they end up causing both themselves and everyone around them harm. Clearly such a person could not go on living with others in heaven or it wouldn't be heaven. But more than that, just continuing to exist will cause them misery themself if they aren't interested in walking in the truth. Therefore I believe it is actually a kindness (grace) to put them out of their misery by letting them perish.
I do realize that on this last point, my view of God's final judgment/wrath is not the prevailing view. I have studied this issue extensively, however, and believe the more common view - that of eternal suffering, to be a mere tradition rooted in coercion. But obviously you would need to seek God and study up on this issue for yourself to be properly convinced.
I appreciate your perspective.
Your first example is not judgment, in my view, but chastisement. And chastisement has as its goal correction. It is certainly an exercise of grace and should be seen to be an exercise of love.
Your personal example also seems to describe chastisement, and not judgment.
As far as those who never come to faith, we know that they haven't experienced the greatest expression of grace because everyone who is saved is saved by grace. So I don't agree that they are the recipients of grace, other than common grace.
Your first example is not judgment, in my view, but chastisement. And chastisement has as its goal correction. It is certainly an exercise of grace and should be seen to be an exercise of love.
Your personal example also seems to describe chastisement, and not judgment.
As far as those who never come to faith, we know that they haven't experienced the greatest expression of grace because everyone who is saved is saved by grace. So I don't agree that they are the recipients of grace, other than common grace.
Whether the biblical use of the word 'judgment' refers to what you are calling chastisement or not, I can appreciate what you are saying.
I am not sure, though, that I understand your distinction between grace and common grace, at least in context of what I was trying to say. Yes, God offers the particular extension of grace in offering salvation for those who repent and receive Jesus as savior. I wasn't speaking of that myself, though. Rather I was speaking more broadly. Justice and mercy (grace) are both attributes of God and are not in disagreement. Therefore God will be merciful even in executing justice (Consider 2 Tim. 2:13 for comparison. See below.) . If they were truly at odds, God couldn't have them both in His being.
2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
I am not sure, though, that I understand your distinction between grace and common grace, at least in context of what I was trying to say. Yes, God offers the particular extension of grace in offering salvation for those who repent and receive Jesus as savior. I wasn't speaking of that myself, though. Rather I was speaking more broadly. Justice and mercy (grace) are both attributes of God and are not in disagreement. Therefore God will be merciful even in executing justice (Consider 2 Tim. 2:13 for comparison. See below.) . If they were truly at odds, God couldn't have them both in His being.
2 Timothy 2:11-13
11 Here is a trustworthy saying:
If we died with him,
we will also live with him;
12 if we endure,
we will also reign with him.
If we disown him,
he will also disown us;
13 if we are faithless,
he remains faithful,
for he cannot disown himself.
While justice and mercy are both employed by God, I fail to see how the two are applied simultaneously to the same individual. Mercy requires God to relent from doing justice, and not apply to the individual the justice their actions should require of them. God can remain just in doing so because in Christ He has already exacted justice. But I don't see how both justice and mercy can occur simultaneously.
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Luk 18:1
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Luk 18:2
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
Luk 18:3
And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
Luk 18:4
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Luk 18:5
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
Luk 18:6
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luk 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint;
Luk 18:2
Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man:
Luk 18:3
And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary.
Luk 18:4
And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man;
Luk 18:5
Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me.
Luk 18:6
And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith.
Luk 18:7
And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
Luk 18:8
I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?
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