Wailing at the Western Wall of the Roman Fort

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Nov 1, 2024
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#3
This graphic below is from one of the articles linked to above. It depicts the Roman fort on what is now considered the Temple Mount. The temple is about 600 feet south of it in the City of David.



The valley to the left of the fort is the Kidron Valley. The mountain across from the fort is now considered to be the Mount of Olives, but the mountain further south across from the temple is what was considered the Mount of Olives in bible times.

The Hinnom Valley intersects the Kidron Valley south of the city near where the well of En Rogel and the kings' gardens used to be. The hill that forms the south side of the Hinnom Valley is the Hill of Evil Counsel where Jesus was condemned by the pharisees. Caiaphas supposedly had his residence there.

The Kidron Valley continues south where it intersects Azal Valley (Nahal Azal in Hebrew) at the southernmost point of the Mount of Olives. This is the Azal of Zechariah 14:5. The mountain in the background that forms the southern side of Nahal Azal is called Mount Azal in Jerusalem today (Jabel Mukaber in Arabic)).

The southeastern point of the temple was supposedly 400-500 feet high. This place is probably what is referred to in one of the temptations of Jesus

Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple, And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone. Matthew 4:5-6
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#4
I can't get over the irony of Jews/Christians praying at the western wall of the Roman Fort Antonia thinking it's the temple. It's been known for over 50 years that this isn't the western wall of the temple

 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
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#5
I can't get over the irony of Jews/Christians praying at the western wall of the Roman Fort Antonia thinking it's the temple. It's been known for over 50 years that this isn't the western wall of the temple

Question: your main “issue” with this is the location?
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#6
Question: your main “issue” with this is the location?
I don't have an issue because I really don't care about a worldly temple. I think it's mind-boggling and funny that people who care about these kinds of things think they are experiencing some kind of connection with the ancient temple, whereas in reality it's the fortress of the Romans who destroyed the temple. That's some choice irony right there
 

Eli1

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Apr 5, 2022
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#7
I don't have an issue because I really don't care about a worldly temple. I think it's mind-boggling and funny that people who care about these kinds of things think they are experiencing some kind of connection with the ancient temple, whereas in reality it's the fortress of the Romans who destroyed the temple. That's some choice irony right there
Follow up question if you don’t mind: suppose they found the exact location of the wall.
Would you have any “problems” with them praying at the wall after?
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#8
Every time I think about this the words "God shall sit in the heavens and laugh" pop into my head
 

Cranberry

Active member
Dec 7, 2024
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#9
Not true.
Source:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antonia_Fortress

OTHER THEORIES
Some researchers and academics, including Marilyn Sams (M.A. in American Literature, Brigham Young University) and Dr. Robert Cornuke (Ph.D. in Bible and Theology, Louisiana Baptist University), have expanded on research by Dr. Ernest L. Martin (1932–2002, meteorologist, college professor, amateur archeologist), who offered evidence that the compound on what is commonly called the Temple Mount did not house the Jerusalem Temple, but is instead the remnants of a more massive Antonia Fortress, and that the rock inside the Dome of the Rock is not the Foundation Stone, but was inside the Praetorium of Pontius Pilate where Jesus was judged.[12]

Jerome Murphy-O'Connor, however, argued that this theory "cannot be sustained", as it cannot be reconciled with Josephus' description, and it "does not account for the archaeological remains in the western section of the north wall".[13] Josephus and archaeology don't leave much space for doubt in regard to the fact that the Temple Mount was indeed the site of the Herodian Temple, nor for the location of the Antonia near its north-western corner.[13]

Both Josephus and archaeology concur that the Roman military camp after the 70 CE destruction was centered on the three towers next to Herod's royal palace on the Western Hill, and not on the Temple Mount, whose protective walls had been thrown down by the Romans, with the resulting debris visible until today along the Western Wall near Robinson's Arch.[13] Roman military camps had rounded corners and four gates, one in each wall – the Herodian compound had angular corners and nine gates.[13] Permanent camps were much larger, 50 acres on average; the Haram esplanade only contains 36 acres.[13] There is no Roman camp explanation for the Hebrew inscription marking the Trumpeting Place.[13] The Temple compound was surrounded by porticos (roofed colonnades following the inner walls of the compound), while military camps never were.[13] Augustus trusted Herod and would not have built a controlling fortress towering over his capital and Temple, but no emperor would have gone so far as to entrust a legion to a client king.[13]

Remains of a 4-metre thick wall and Herodian-style ashlars are still observable inside the Mamluk buildings in the north-west corner of the Haram and the adjacent area along its northern wall.[13] Together they suggest the dimensions of the Antonia: 112 by 40 metres on the outside, signifying a 3300 square metre floor area, absolutely enough for a small garrison, but certainly not for the entire legion suggested by Martin.[13]

Antonia did stand on a rocky outcrop, as written by Josephus, but here, as elsewhere in his writings, he did exaggerate its elevation above the surrounding ground.[13] This still meant that the fortress dominated the Temple courts and porticos, the latter by over ten metres, matching Josephus' words: "the tower of Antonia lay at the angle where the two porticos, the western and the northern, of the first court of the Temple met" (JW 5:238), and "[a]t the point where the Antonia impinged on the porticos of the temple there were stairs leading down to both of them by which the guards descended" (JW 5:243; cf. Acts 21:40).[13] The position and dimensions of those porticos can still be in part discerned, thanks to three surviving roof beam sockets carved out of the living rock of the rocky outcrop which once held the Antonia, north-west of the esplanade.[13] Josephus' statement that all the porticos surrounding the Temple complex measured six stadia "including the Antonia" (JW 5:192) is off by a large margin (six stadia represent about 1.11 km, whereas the sides of the Haram esplanade today measure together about 1.55 km), but it clearly suggests that the fortress was contiguous with the Temple complex with no need for a "double causeway" to connect the two by spanning a distance of one stade (c. 150 m), as claimed by Martin.[13]
 

Eli1

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Apr 5, 2022
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#10
@Cranberry question for you: would you have any problems with the Jews praying at the wall, assuming it’s the correct location?
 
Nov 1, 2024
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#11
Follow up question if you don’t mind: suppose they found the exact location of the wall.
Would you have any “problems” with them praying at the wall after?
Well they won't find a wall because Jesus said there wouldn't be one stone left upon another and historical witnesses verify that is what happened. But even if they did find one I wouldn't care what they do. They can go worship at the Gihon spring which is where the temple was.
 

Eli1

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Apr 5, 2022
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#13
Follow up question for anyone who wants to pick it up:

Would you have any problems with the Catholics praying at an icon or a statue?
 

Cranberry

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Dec 7, 2024
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#14
Follow up question for anyone who wants to pick it up:

Would you have any problems with the Catholics praying at an icon or a statue?
They do.
Why would Catholics practice be for me to judge?

Do you know why Jews pray at,not to,the Wailing Wall?
 

Eli1

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Apr 5, 2022
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#15
Do you know why Jews pray at,not to,the Wailing Wall?
I'm not really sure to be honest because i'm not Jewish, but i was told that it's a holy space/area so that's why.
 

SomeDisciple

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Jul 4, 2021
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#16
The problem with this show-host quoting Micah WRT the temple is that Micah prophesied in the first temple period. IOW- Micah is referring to Solomon's temple and not Zerubabbel's.
 

Cranberry

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Dec 7, 2024
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#19
I'm not really sure to be honest because i'm not Jewish, but i was told that it's a holy space/area so that's why.
To my understanding their Tamud says that any Synagogue is a minor holy temple. While the Temple Mount was the dwelling place God chose for himself during the time of King David.
So as I see it, the Temple itself being destroyed in 70A.D doesn't mean it is gone from the hearts of the Jews who reconnect to that sacred space.

And due to access restrictions to the Temple Mount that western wall is the next best thing.

I would love to tour there for the experience. I imagine the energy of such devotion is palpable even to non-Jews.
 

SomeDisciple

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Jul 4, 2021
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#20
Why do you think it's ironic, if you don't mind explaining a bit more?
Because the wall of a Roman fortress- if that is indeed what it is in reality- would be "most unclean" rather than most-holy.