Understanding God’s election

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R

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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HeIsHere said:
Do you also tell them that God may not have them on the "enabling list" created from before time began?
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Why would I tell an unbeliever that? Do I know who God has predestined to be saved? I'm a mere mortal. One man plants, another man waters but it's GOD WHO GIVES THE INCREASE, as he wishes. The one who plants and the one who waters are nothing (1Cor 3:6-7).

Further, why would I detract from their moral/spiritual responsibility to repent and believe the Gospel?
 
Genez

Genez

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Oct 12, 2017
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rogerg said:
When someone becomes saved/born-again, they are a completely new creation, spiritually speaking.
Those saved/born/again, become citizens of the Israel God, also known as spiritual Israel (to distinguish it from earthly Israel). As citizens of spiritual Israel, they are spiritual Jews, new creations in a biblical sense. So, you didn't realize there is a spiritual Israel (Israel of God) with the spiritual Jews that spiritually inhabit it apart from and different than the earthly? The earthly Israel no longer has any special spiritual significance with God. It is only spiritual Israel - the Israel of God - that does.
If you can keep that distinction in mind and apply it correctly, the Bible will make much more sense to you, reducing any confusion and misappropriation for you.
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I am a Jew by DNA. I was born again in 1968.
Graduated from a three-year Bible college with honors.

I must say...

You have no idea how much there is for you to learn and to yet know.
But, you seem to think you have reached as far as one can go.

God is not yet done with the Jews as a people!
There has presently been a partial hardening on the part of Israel during the Church age
because God is now gathering to himself his Church/Bride.

There will be 144,000 Jews raised up as evangelists on earth.
Raised up by God after the Church has been removed and taken to heaven.

They will be Jews! Not the Church!


Revelation 7:4-8​
​
​
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. ​
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes ​
of the children of Israel were sealed:​
​
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.​
​
The Church has no tribes!

......

​
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
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Oct 12, 2017
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#5,285
Calvinists...
It's not simply:
"Predestined to save."

Rather...

Chosen and Predestined to be born during the Church age to become saved!
For God is now calling out and gathering His Church to give His Son his Bride!

OT Jews will not be resurrected as the Bride of Christ.
John the Baptist (who died before the Church age begun) declared that he was the friend of the Groom. Not, the Bride!

​
You yourselves can confirm that I did not say I was the Messiah, but that I have been sent ahead of him. ​
The bridegroom is the one who has the bride; but the bridegroom’s friend, who stands and listens to him, ​
is overjoyed at the sound of the bridegroom’s voice. So this joy of mine is now complete. " ​
​
John 3:28-29​
Complete Jewish Bible​
 
B

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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GWH said:
Not at all; that is exactly what Calvin (who regurgitated Augustine) taught, (cf. TULIP) because he was not concerned about impugning or blaspheming the justness/alllovingness of God--as though God were schizophrenic.
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Yes at all
 
B

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Inquisitor said:
The atonement correctly understood is that Jesus was sent only to the Jews.

The atonement was for the nation of Israel and that was the fulfillment of their law.

The law belonged to Israel and was never given to the Gentiles.

The Gentiles were grafted at a later time into Jesus Christ.

Israel was the cultivated olive tree.

Paul explained that reconciliation of Israel, in depth, in Romans.
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The atonement wasnt for national israel, maybe some jews out of that nation a remnant, yet it was also for gentile elect, they together is the Israel of God, they together all Israel is saved
 
B

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Rufus said:
When I present the Gospel, I tell people that Christ died for all those who come to believe on Him. And that is a thoroughly biblical statement.
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Its a compromising statement to me, it sounds like you offering salvation to everyone, if only they believe.
 
G

GWH

Groovy
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Oct 19, 2024
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Genez said:
"Fixed That For You."

But he did not post it as sarcasm.
For when posting it in quote attributed directly to you?

He posted it as a misrepresentation and lie of what you said.

(he still has some of that total depravity clinging to his internal organs, perhaps?)
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Thanks. (Happy to know they were not F words! :^)
 
B

brightfame52

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Nov 21, 2020
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Genez said:
Well, then. Be that as it may. Please answer the question anyway.

Since you believe that Jesus died for only the elect? (the Calvinistic view)

Do you believe that all unbelievers will be condemned to Hell based upon there being no forgiveness for their sins?
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Why answer someone who is confused ? And yes Jesus did only die for the elect, and to say or imply otherwise is a false gospel
 
G

GWH

Groovy
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Oct 19, 2024
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#5,291
Pilgrimshope said:
“Jesus was sent both primarily to the Jews in fulfillment of the OT”

amen

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Before Jesus died

“These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: but go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭10:5-6‬ ‭

as jesus death approached

“And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

after Jesus died and rose

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus came to Jews first and then he sent those Jews who believed out to all people as witnesses of the gospel so we all too can share in salvation
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Yes, how I wish more folks would harmonize truth by employing both/and thinking instead of doing divisive either/or debate by default!
 
R

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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#5,295
Genez said:
I am a Jew by DNA. I was born again in 1968.
Graduated from a three-year Bible college with honors.

I must say...

You have no idea how much there is for you to learn and to yet know.
But, you seem to think you have reached as far as one can go.

God is not yet done with the Jews as a people!
There has presently been a partial hardening on the part of Israel during the Church age
because God is now gathering to himself his Church/Bride.

There will be 144,000 Jews raised up as evangelists on earth.
Raised up by God after the Church has been removed and taken to heaven.

They will be Jews! Not the Church!


Revelation 7:4-8​
​
​
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. ​
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes ​
of the children of Israel were sealed:​
​
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.​
​
The Church has no tribes!

......

​
Click to expand...
Did Roger say that God was done with Jews as a people?

Get off on tangents often?

And you dispensationalists keep forgetting one thing: In this eternal New Covenant age that we're in, Jesus has only ONE flock of sheep that consists of Jewish and Gentiles believers.

P.S. Abraham is my spiritual father!
 
C

Cranberry

Active member
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Dec 7, 2024
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#5,296
Genez said:
I am a Jew by DNA. I was born again in 1968.
Graduated from a three-year Bible college with honors.

I must say...

You have no idea how much there is for you to learn and to yet know.
But, you seem to think you have reached as far as one can go.

God is not yet done with the Jews as a people!
There has presently been a partial hardening on the part of Israel during the Church age
because God is now gathering to himself his Church/Bride.

There will be 144,000 Jews raised up as evangelists on earth.
Raised up by God after the Church has been removed and taken to heaven.

They will be Jews! Not the Church!


Revelation 7:4-8​
​
​
And I heard the number of those who were sealed. ​
One hundred and forty-four thousand of all the tribes ​
of the children of Israel were sealed:​
​
of the tribe of Judah twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Gad twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Asher twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Levi twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand were sealed;​
of the tribe of Benjamin twelve thousand were sealed.​
​
The Church has no tribes!

......

​
Click to expand...
There was no such thing as Jew in the Old Testament covenant.

Abram was. Gentile chosen by God to serve as the father of many different nations.

No longer will you be called Abram; your name will be Abraham, for I have made you a father of many nations. I will make you very fruitful; I will make nations of you, and kings will come from you." (Genesis 17:3-6)

Jacob is the other name for Israel. Genesis chapters 33,34,35 and 37.

Twelve tribes, 144 thousand.
 
G

GWH

Groovy
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Oct 19, 2024
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#5,298
brightfame52 said:
Huh, now you really coming out of left field somewhere
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I am coming from the fact that the founders of your faith in "L" that Christ "died to pay the penalty of sin for Gods elect only" included Calvin, whose view was founded on the views of Augustine of Hippo c. 400 A.D., NOT on Scripture teaching that God is all-loving.
 
stilllearning

stilllearning

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Oct 4, 2021
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cv5 said:
And yes, all of Israel DEFINITELY knew of the reason for the place name of Golgotha.
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Some scholars speculate it is named from looking like a skull others in connection to the death of Christ. However, in no way is it named thus in reference to Goliath.

John 19:17 And he bearing his cross went forth into a place called the place of a skull, which is called in the Hebrew Golgotha:

The Hebrew word is gulgoleth and means skull.

https://biblehub.com/hebrew/1538.htm

Concerning Abimelech. Judges 9:53 And a certain woman cast a piece of a millstone upon Abimelech's head, and all to brake his skull/gulgoleth.

Concerning Saul after the Philistines won. I Chronicles 10:8-10

And it came to pass on the morrow, when the Philistines came to strip the slain, that they found Saul and his sons fallen in mount Gilboa.

9And when they had stripped him, they took his head, and his armour, and sent into the land of the Philistines round about, to carry tidings unto their idols, and to the people.

10And they put his armour in the house of their gods, and fastened his head/gulgoleth in the temple of Dagon.

Concerning Jezebel. 2Kings 9:35 And they went to bury her: but they found no more of her than the skull/gulgoleth, and the feet, and the palms of her hands.

Golgotha where Christ died was the Hebrew word for skull and had no connection with Goliath and in the case of Abimelech proceeded Goliath in usage.
 
C

Cranberry

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Dec 7, 2024
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GWH said:
I am coming from the fact that the founders of your faith in "L" that Christ "died to pay the penalty of sin for Gods elect only" included Calvin, whose view was founded on the views of Augustine of Hippo c. 400 A.D., NOT on Scripture teaching that God is all-loving.
Click to expand...
What god are you referring to?
 
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