Israel's Final Deliverance

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Aaron56

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Jul 12, 2021
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#21
That makes no sense. I may say that certain political parties in the U.S. are opposed to the current state of the Constitution. But that doesn't mean they are against the U.S. Those who choose to live in a particular country obviously support that country unless they are embedded spies and deviants.
Right. Because you are stuck on Israel being a physical place. Israel is a specific people.
 
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#22
What about Revelation 16? Zechariah 14?
many of these depict things happening in the land of Israel, so why is it secondary importance? How can we interpret geographical locations as symbolic?
I guess the question needs to be asked, why does it have primary importance? Yes, of course that is where the lord will return to, and since the world focuses so intently on that region great trouble and judgment are coming to it. But what does that have to do with the gospel, which is most important thing IMO?
 
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#23
Right. Because you are stuck on Israel being a physical place. Israel is a specific people.
More specifically, a specific person, ie, Christ, to whom the promises were made and who inherited them. And also by marriage to him, a specific people , ie, his body, who receive their portion of the inheritance in him.
 

Cameron143

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#24
That makes no sense. I may say that certain political parties in the U.S. are opposed to the current state of the Constitution. But that doesn't mean they are against the U.S. Those who choose to live in a particular country obviously support that country unless they are embedded spies and deviants.
Israel rejected Messiah, and continue, for the most part, to do so today. In this, they harm themselves.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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#25
That makes no sense. I may say that certain political parties in the U.S. are opposed to the current state of the Constitution. But that doesn't mean they are against the U.S. Those who choose to live in a particular country obviously support that country unless they are embedded spies and deviants.
Many Jews objected to the Zionist movement and the creation of the state of Israel, especially as the movement began to take shape.
 

Aaron56

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#26
More specifically, a specific person, ie, Christ, to whom the promises were made and who inherited them. And also by marriage to him, a specific people , ie, his body, who receive their portion of the inheritance in him.
Yes indeed. I was thinking about all those "in Christ". Like Peter wrote to believers: "But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light"
 

randyk

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Jan 14, 2021
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#27
There's a lot to unpack in that passage. I know people have different views of scripture, especially Revelation. There are several rules to which I adhere when reading such a prophetic book. One is: In a particular area, if most of the verses are allegorical then the entire passage is likely allegorical. Unless we are told, the Spirit does not flip flop from allegory to actual within the same passage.

So, in the passage above, we see the Euphrates river. John would have known this river and the importance of it. It provided water to people and crops, allowed for trade and commerce between nations, and was essential to regional life as he knew it. Today, we know it as one of the waterways that established the "cradle of life" so its importance stretched even into our day.

Then, in the next verse we see frogs, a dragon, and a beast. This is allegory. Sure, they denote actual things (like the Euphrates) but the references are to their meanings as they relate to the end of the age. So, the Euphrates, too, relates to the end of the age.

The drying up of the waters of the Euphrates is emblematic of the drying up of revelation and insight. This will be (and currently is) a famine of the word of God. They also represent the removal of restraint (also prophesied and what we are currently experiencing) because it restrained "the kings" until it is dried up. At one time, even the unbelievers saw some wisdom in the way of God and His people. This speaks of a time when the people reject the ways of God and His people whole-sale. And so, they are given over to their unrestrained imaginations.

In the whole picture, this is It is Satan in consort with his offspring, the beast, and his enabler, that little horn that speaks blasphemous things against God and against the dwellers of heaven. This is a religious figure who has led astray anyone who is seeking God and lives by the water of life, the Holy Spirit.
I think you're confusing "allegory" with "symbols." An allegory is an imaginary story told to represent something else. Symbols are used all the time in telling a real story without reference to imaginary stories.

For example, the Prophets spoke of a literal invasion of Israel by Assyrians and Babylonians. They could use symbols to describe them, but these symbols were not presenting an imaginary story, but an actual story, merely using symbols for the various parties.

There were instances in the Prophets where Israel was taught certain things by allegory, such as allegories depicting the activities of trees or vines, eg Eze 17. The story depicted the life of an eagle and a planted vine, but it was an imaginary story designed to reflect a true story about Israel. This story was more than just using symbols--the story itself was imaginary.

In Revelation we have prophecy, and not an entire allegorical story. In fact, to reduce Revelation from true history to allegory would be to detract and reduce the information in the prophecy, which we were ordered not to do.

Perhaps Rev 12 can represent something close to a kind of allegory. But again, the story is not designed to be an imaginary story, but rather, an actual story making use of symbols.

Many of the parables Jesus told were imaginary stories. But even they are a little different than the genre of allegories. They are more fictional stories providing moral lessons, rather than representing, figuratively, actual history. Allegories are fictional, symbolic stories, designed to represent some historical reality, as opposed to true stories making use of symbols.
 

randyk

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#28
Many Jews objected to the Zionist movement and the creation of the state of Israel, especially as the movement began to take shape.
Yes, I know. Jews in Israel obviously are not opposed to the State of Israel. They may have a different political philosophy, but they are not for the destruction of their own country.

For example, some rabbis may believe that only God can bring in God's Kingdom. And so, they are against Zionist endeavors to expand the land to present a kind of Messianic Kingdom by the hands of Man. But they would not be in favor of expelling the Jews from their country, or they would be suicidal.
 

Cameron143

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#30
Let's not confuse political suicide with non-Christianity.
The rejection of Messiah is what the book of Revelation is about. If you want to understand the end, you need to understand the beginning.
 

Aaron56

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#31
I think you're confusing "allegory" with "symbols." An allegory is an imaginary story told to represent something else. Symbols are used all the time in telling a real story without reference to imaginary stories.
When you tell a story with symbols it's an allegory. But I agree: symbolic would have been a better explanation. One definition of "allegory" is "a symbol". :sneaky:

In Revelation we have prophecy, and not an entire allegorical story. In fact, to reduce Revelation from true history to allegory would be to detract and reduce the information in the prophecy, which we were ordered not to do.
No one made this claim.
 

randyk

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#32
The rejection of Messiah is what the book of Revelation is about. If you want to understand the end, you need to understand the beginning.
I understanding both the beginning and the end. But you were confusing political suicide with non-Christianity.
 
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#34
The rejection of Messiah is what the book of Revelation is about. If you want to understand the end, you need to understand the beginning.
Revelation (unveiling) is just that: the unveiling of the "7 days" of creation of the new heavens and earth. Begun when he received the kingdom and unsealed the seals, progressing until now and to the end when all is perfected
 

Cameron143

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#35
I understanding both the beginning and the end. But you were confusing political suicide with non-Christianity.
You merely think that's what I was doing. All of Israel's problems stem from their disobedience and rejection of Messiah. You can separate this into categories if you like, but I don't.
 

randyk

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#36
No one made this claim.
You appeared to make the claim that the prophecy about the Euphrates River was allegory. And you indicated that allegories should not be interspersed with true stories. How can you deny you said this?
 

Cameron143

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#38
Revelation (unveiling) is just that: the unveiling of the "7 days" of creation of the new heavens and earth. Begun when he received the kingdom and unsealed the seals, progressing until now and to the end when all is perfected
Revelation is concerning the destruction of Israel in the first century because of their failure to keep the covenant they made with God.
 

randyk

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#39
You merely think that's what I was doing. All of Israel's problems stem from their disobedience and rejection of Messiah. You can separate this into categories if you like, but I don't.
It's not about "categories"--it's about dealing with what I said. I said that the nations, generally, are opposed to Israel, and are not doing enough to oppose Iran's "attack" on Israel. You then insert that Israel itself is against Israel??

Nobody is denying the spiritual war that goes on inside every man. Jews, being non-Christian, certainly are fighting a spiritual war of their own.

But the point is, Jews living in Israel are not opposed to the state of Israel in the same way the nations of the world are opposed to Israel. The world would divide Jerusalem and the territory of Israel so that Jews are no longer protected as a people and as a culture. Islam would destroy it.