The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

No, yours.

Even your response here does not make any sense, in view of what I actually wrote, here ^ .





Oh well.

Believe what you wish, ewq.







[Let the readers judge which view comports with Jesus' actual words in Matthew 24:15-22]

I am getting really really bored with this thread. I just imagened bunch of scribes coming together and breaking heads over scripture, while Jesus is outside somewhere ministering the needy

I am sorry if I offended anyone, just like to say let's not lose our focus here. As usual only He has all the answers

Pre-trib rapture deniers continue to avoid this like the plague:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Second Coming is not at all His coming in the same manner as when He departed at His ascension. He was showering His disciples with blessing and instruction. In His Second Coming, He will come with wrath, destruction and killing of His enemies, with His garments splattered with the blood of His enemies and the enemies of Israel. The character (or manner) are polar opposites from one another, and yet some continue to claim that the body of Christ will not be caught up until the second coming. Some believe pre-wrath, others mid-trib. Some don't even believe in the tribulation nor the Millennium.

What a crock!

MM

Wrong. All this verse tells us is he will descend down from heaven and stand upon the Earth as he did when he left but simply in reverse order. It does not address the wrath or Armageddon because he is still in the air when those things take place. You are taking it too literally.

Show to us where that verse says anything about his return having anything to do with where He was or will stand.

What that verse CLEARLY STATES is the MANNER in which He returns, which we know that at the rapture His feet will not stand upon the earth since we will rise up to meet Him in the air.

Adding to the text what isn't there is really bad hermeneutics. I'm not accusing you of knowing anything about interpretational rules, but if you study the rules for hermeneutics, you will find that Bible 101 students know better than to try and foist that nonsense as their battering ram against those who are more honest and knowledgeable about scripture, and who are better equipped with what scripture is actually saying.

If I come over to your house and present myself in a manner different than a previous visit, you're not going to be standing there looking at my feet...

Come on! Get with the program here!

MM

He was standing and rose into the air, so he will descend from the air and stand again. The rapture happens in the clouds far above the Earth so BEFORE the fulfillment of the verse we are discussing. Anything else I can help with?

I have had this person on iggy for a long long time. Why bother wearing out a perfectly good keyboard?

Then you do not know what firstfruits is.

The Gathering in Revelation 14 verse 14 is roughly the middle of the tribulation. The 7-year tribulation. And that Gathering definitely shortens the time for the Jews that are gathered in Revelation 14. So that is what you're looking at there.

I don't think you have any explanation for the Times being shortened

There is no resurrection in Rev 20.
Those beheaded were resurrected and in heaven as the great multitude early on in the 7 yr trib.
The first resurrection is Jesus along with the Patriarchs that Resurrected right after Jesus did and were seen walking in the streets of Jerusalem those are the first fruits. Then at the Rapture the dead in Christ are raised which is the first resurrection but not the first fruits of the first resurrection. The innumerable number of Martyrs that came out of the Great Tribulation and no the partners before them were told to stay under the altar until their number was fulfilled. So we see these Saints Resurrected and Before the Throne and in heaven in the general population not under the altar, indicating that now their number is fulfilled they died in Christ, and are now Resurrected because the martyrs are in the general population in previously were under the altar.

Acts chapter 1.
Matthew 24
Rev 14
1 thes 4
The last supper dialogue.
Matthew 25
Jesus himself gave 2cescape verses.

None of that can honestly be refuted.
However postrib tapture doctrine has no verses at all.

I've already shown to you the meaninglessness behind trying to make this about standing upon the earth, and you still went that way, which only demonstrates a lack of intellectual honesty toward the text as it speaks specifically to the MANNER of His departure...what He was doing and saying. If you refuse to acknowledge the obvious, then this conversation is dead in the water for lack of handling the text honestly on your part.

MM

^ I'm a "pre-tribber" who sees Jesus' second ascension (the one in Acts 1) to be "in like manner AS YE HAVE SEEN" (i.e. "VISIBLE") to be how He will "RETURN" to the earth (when "every eye shall SEE Him"); whereas His EARLIER ascension (some "40 days" earlier, ON "FIRSTFRUIT" / His Resurrection Day) to be like "our Rapture"... it was only "TOLD" to MM (Jn20:17) but no one visibly saw Him "traveling-up to Heaven" like in the Acts 1 event.






[these TWO events ^ SEPARATED BY "40 days"... and remember, "40" = "TRIAL, etc"]

The Second Coming will be with wrath, destruction and killing, with the blood of the enemies splattered on the garment of Jesus as He delivers the remnant of Israel, the last 1/3 still left alive at His coming.

So, no, the MANNER of the Second Coming is not at all akin to the MANNER of His departure at His ascension. Dare we be hones with the text, the rapture of the saints is not at all similar to the manner of the Lord's Second Coming, contrary to what the post-tribbers claim.

MM

It will ALSO be like THIS:

--Daniel 7:22 [PARALLEL WORDING to that of Rev20:4a] - "Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom." [see also vv.25,27];


--Daniel 12:12 [PARALLEL to about 8 other "BLESSED" passages] "BLESSED is he that WAITETH, and COMETH TO the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days." [This "BLESSED" corresponds with Rev19:9's "BLESSED" and Matt24:46[,42-51] / Lk12:37,43[,36-48]'s "BLESSED" and Matt25:34[,31-46]'s [ABOUT "GENTILES / those of the NATIONS"] "BLESSED"... and several other passages...]... about "still-living" saints (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth) who will ENTER the promised and prophesied earthly MK age IN THEIR MORTAL BODIES (Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50 = same time-slot... AFTER the Trib, same!) ;


--Matt24:13 [and parallel] "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved" (thus entering the MK age ^ as in the above);


--Rev19:15b "... and He SHALL [future tense to this point in the chronology] RULE / SHEPHERD them [the nations] with a rod / sceptre [Heb1:8b] of iron [/righteousness and strength]" (the ONLY ONES of the "nations" permitted ENTRANCE INTO the MK age, are the "believers / saints" [those having come to faith in Christ FOLLOWING "our Rapture" (i.e. IN the TRIB yrs)]--NO "UNbelievers" will be granted ENTRANCE INTO the MK age);


--etc etc...





So based on all of the above passages (and many more), I remain unconvinced of your conclusion

^ Allow me to highlight just one of the passages I referenced in the above post ^ :

Luk 12:36 [parallel Matt24:42-51 in His Olivet Discourse] -
And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.
Luk 12:37
Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat [G347 (see also Mt8:11 and parallel)], and will come forth and serve them.







These "BLESSED" do not EVER "lift off" the earth (as this is NOT a "rapture" CONTEXT, but is His "Second Coming TO THE EARTH, *FOR* the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age--They will ENTER IT [the MK age] in their "mortal bodies" [never having lifted off the earth! They are located THERE upon His "RETURN" to the earth! (see also Lk19:12,15,17,19--SAME LOCATION! earth!)])

^ There is also the DISTINCTION between 2Th2:1 (about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"--the entire Verse 1's Subject--pertaining SOLELY to "us"/"the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY") and that of 2Th2:8b the "MANIFESTATION of the presence / parousia of Him" (when "EVERY eye shall SEE Him"--Rev1:7, referring to Rev19 [/ Matt24:29-31 / Isa27:9,12-13] His Second Coming to the earth [I believe this "SEE" corresponds with the "in like manner" that the Acts 1 [second] ascension speaks to])








["40 days" (="trial") SEPARATED His TWO instances of ascension (Jn20:17 and Acts 1)... So the "pattern" holds]

Not on my part.