God Works In The Midst Of Suffering

You're just complicating things for yourself. Do you not trust God that He will protect you from His own wrath that He will inflict on His enemies? The Lord will collect us in time. We really don't have to worry about God's wrath.

.... Unless you took the mark of the beast and fell away. Building up your faith will help prevent that.

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God keeps it simple. One thing He asks of us: Endure to the end.

Matthew 24:13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved.

Just please do that. Build up your faith so that you won't take the mark. Building up your faith will also help you to discern God's voice better - He might have specific instructions for you if He chooses to help you survive and be one of those who are "alive and remain" when the Lord comes back.


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As I posted with scripture it is God's wrath starting in the 7-year tribulation. I trust the promises of God that He will protect the church by rapturing the church. It would be impossible to avoid God's wrath as it will affect the whole world.

Faith will help those who do come to Christ during the tribulation period.

Sure except you are taking Matthew 24:13 out of context.

8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.

9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold

13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.

15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—

Verse 14 describes the end of verses 8 through 14 with the end being the the tribulation. How is it the end in verse 13 if verse verse 15 the abomination comes into power and the end isn't until verse 31? Surely you can see the progression of events in this chapter?

We are in verses 8 through 14 with 14 being established. The end is near. To endure is to either stay faithful unto death or when Jesus gathers the church.

This debate has never been a salvation issue so we shouldn't make it as such. The truth remains the same regardless of when our end is. Stay faithful regardless if you're in the tribulation or not. That is the simple part of this versus debating over future events that the church has debated over for centuries. More than likely we all have parts of it wrong.

What's with all the strange repeats????

The Bible doesn't say anything about a secret rapture. The Bible simply says that the Lord will return only once more and collect us at the last trumpet.

How can you say that it will be impossible to avoid God's wrath?

Didn't you read about the Hebrews being protected in Egypt when God sent the 10 plagues on the Egyptians??? Please read Exodus, Chapters 7-11.

Don't you believe ANY of that actually happened???


Well, since you're going to be there too, I hope you have plenty of faith....


Here are the verses:

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. [<-- This ends the previous series of events that designate the beginning of birth pains.]

[The next paragraph describes the people that will come against faithful Christians during the great tribulation.]
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. [The gospel will be preached not just by the 144,000, but also by us - faithfulness in persecution actually will draw people to the Lord more than during peaceful, "safe" times.]

[This is where you misunderstood the verses. Verse 15 isn't part of verses 9-14. Verses 15-21 still talks about the same great tribulation - but this time about the danger that the antichrist brings with his rule and that those in Judea need to get away ASAP.]
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.


Yes, I agree with you! Stay faithful no matter what. But if you're still around when the antichrist shows up, please don't feel bad as if you were left behind. You're not being left behind - God is just letting things happen the way He said they would in the Bible: the great tribulation first with the antichrist, and then the Lord to collect us afterward. All Christians will go through it no matter what their stance is about the Lord collecting us.

The mark of the beast IS a salvation issue though. This is why God included the warning in the Bible that anyone who takes the mark of the beast will go to hell. It IS a faith issue and a salvation issue. If a so called Christian takes the mark so they can keep buying and selling, so that the world won't hate them, and so that they won't get killed for refusing it, it shows that they don't have real faith in God at all. It is a shallow faith that doesn't save and they WILL go to hell.

Yeah, hard stuff, but I had to accept what the Bible says too. I was honestly scared, but if you start building up your faith in the Lord, all that stuff won't be as scary. Also be confident in the Lord and all He promised us - the mark of the beast cannot provide what God can. You have to keep in mind that even when the mark of the beast is enforced, there will be worldwide scarcity of food and other essentials, plus those who take the mark will get very painful sores (it sounds like a very bad allergic reaction) that won't heal. So really we are better off who don't take the mark.


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(What's with all the strange repeats????)

The quote button with poor internet.

(The Bible doesn't say anything about a secret rapture. The Bible simply says that the Lord will return only once more and collect us at the last trumpet.)

It all depends on personal interpretation. In reality, no one objectively knows as each theory is based on scriptures from multiple different books and chapters so to create a timeline is pointless.

(How can you say that it will be impossible to avoid God's wrath?

Didn't you read about the Hebrews being protected in Egypt when God sent the 10 plagues on the Egyptians??? Please read Exodus, Chapters 7-11.

Don't you believe ANY of that actually happened???)

Absolutely just as the Ark saved Noah and his family so will Jesus as our Ark save us from the time of judgement which will either be before the tribulation and God's wrath.

(Well, since you're going to be there too, I hope you have plenty of faith....)

God sustains me in all things.


(Here are the verses:

Matthew 24:8 All these are the beginning of birth pains. [<-- This ends the previous series of events that designate the beginning of birth pains.]

[The next paragraph describes the people that will come against faithful Christians during the great tribulation.])

That is only your interpretation but if you read Revelation or Daniel's 70 Weeks prophecy verse 15 is where the text seems very similar to the tribulation event.


(9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come. [The gospel will be preached not just by the 144,000, but also by us - faithfulness in persecution actually will draw people to the Lord more than during peaceful, "safe" times.]

[This is where you misunderstood the verses. Verse 15 isn't part of verses 9-14. Verses 15-21 still talks about the same great tribulation - but this time about the danger that the antichrist brings with his rule and that those in Judea need to get away ASAP.]
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand— 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now—and never to be equaled again.)

Note: Your colors are more distracting than beneficial.

(Yes, I agree with you! Stay faithful no matter what. But if you're still around when the antichrist shows up, please don't feel bad as if you were left behind. You're not being left behind - God is just letting things happen the way He said they would in the Bible: the great tribulation first with the antichrist, and then the Lord to collect us afterward. All Christians will go through it no matter what their stance is about the Lord collecting us.)

If you say so. Either way it will be a sigh of relief when you are saved from God's wrath.

(The mark of the beast IS a salvation issue though. This is why God included the warning in the Bible that anyone who takes the mark of the beast will go to hell. It IS a faith issue and a salvation issue. If a so called Christian takes the mark so they can keep buying and selling, so that the world won't hate them, and so that they won't get killed for refusing it, it shows that they don't have real faith in God at all. It is a shallow faith that doesn't save and they WILL go to hell.)

I was referring to the debate on the rapture. Of course, taking the mark is to follow Satan. Same guidance for us today. If you follow satan you go to Hell, if you follow Christ you go to Heaven.

(Yeah, hard stuff, but I had to accept what the Bible says too. I was honestly scared, but if you start building up your faith in the Lord, all that stuff won't be as scary. Also be confident in the Lord and all He promised us - the mark of the beast cannot provide what God can. You have to keep in mind that even when the mark of the beast is enforced, there will be worldwide scarcity of food and other essentials, plus those who take the mark will get very painful sores (it sounds like a very bad allergic reaction) that won't heal. So really we are better off who don't take the mark.)

Its no scarier than than anything else. Dying is easy in the perspective of eternity. God is going to save and protect His Church. You will be fine but yes if left behind, don't take the mark.

No, it DOESN'T depend on personal interpretation. We have the Bible and the Holy Spirit to guide us into all truth. You also need a love for God's truth and the willingness to accept it even if it's difficult.


Except Noah and his family weren't whisked away from the flood. He and his family went THROUGH it. So neither are we. We will go through the great tribulation too.

I also noticed you didn't address how God protected the Hebrews in Egypt while God was wreaking havoc on the Egyptians with His ten plagues. Maybe you didn't read it? God basically protected the Hebrews from EVERY PLAGUE He inflicted on the Egyptians.

So I don't know why you aren't talking about that, but that is basically fantastic to know that God can protect His people even when they're not physically taken out of a place.

So for other people who want to survive the great tribulation with their faith intact, this ability of the Lord to protect us against His wrath is important to remember!


Please post the specific verses from Revelation and explain what you mean. I like going over Bible verses!

My explanations are just the plain reading of what that group of verses are saying - they weren't actually interpretations.


I'll change them for you.


I'm not worried so much about me and other post-tribbers as I am about pre-tribbers - they're my brothers and sisters in Christ too - and yes we are each other's keepers in Christ. We HAVE to be concerned and watch out for and pray that no one falls away. But a lot of pre-tribbers aren't ready.

If these posts of mine makes you and other pre-tribbers at least remember when the time comes, to endure to the end and not fall away to the mark of the beast, then my goal for these posts have been reached. That is all I'm trying to achieve.


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There is a reason the church has debated this for centuries and has at least 3 different views. Why? Based on ones interpretation. End of story. I actually teach all views when I teach. But if you still want to beat a dead horse im sure others have chosen this hill to die on. As for me, it's not. I could be wrong or right, and I have no problem to admit that when literally our greatest of scholars disagree as well. Thanks for the discussion.

Multiple people in this thread need some hobbies. Badly.

Debate is a hobby. A great tool to learn either how to defend or to expose weakness in personal thought. A tool that Jesus had mastered when speaking to the religious elite and honestly He was more brutal in some cases with the words He said. But He could afford to be because He knew their minds and He couldn't be in error.