What Changed?

With her, she does.

People resist God's grace everyday, and when they here a general call they often resist. When God draws a sinner savingly, it is always effectual. From The 1689 confession of faith;
Of Effectual Calling


Chapter 10
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Paragraph 1
Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, He is pleased in His appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call,1 by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ;2 enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God;3 taking away their heart of stone, and giving to them a heart of flesh;4 renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ;5 yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace.6


1 Rom. 8:30, 11:7; Eph. 1:10–11; 2 Thess. 2:13–14
2 Eph. 2:1–6
3 Acts 26:18; Eph. 1:17–18
4 Ezek. 36:26
5 Deut. 30:6; Ezek. 36:27; Eph. 1:19
6 Ps. 110:3; Cant. 1:4

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Paragraph 2
This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature,7 being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit;8 he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.9


7 2 Tim. 1:9; Eph. 2:8
8 1 Cor. 2:14; Eph. 2:5; John 5:25
9 Eph. 1:19–20

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Paragraph 3
Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit;10 who works when, and where, and how He pleases;11 so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.


10 John 3:3,5–6
11 John 3:8

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Paragraph 4
Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit,12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:13 much less can men that do not receive the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.14


12 Matt. 22:14, 13:20–21; Heb. 6:4–5
13 John 6:44–45,65; 1 John 2:24–25
14 Acts 4:12; John 4:22, 17:3

I take it that you're a Reformed Baptist? How do the cited passages under Paragraph 3 support salvation of infants? I can see the regeneration of unbelievers and how that precedes faith, since Jesus was telling Nicodemus that something must be done to him before he can see the kingdom. There are better passages that support the salvation of all those who have not reached the age of accountability with respect to the knowledge of good and evil. For example, Mat 18:14 and 2Sam 12:23.

Hello Rufus, You are correct, I am a reformed Baptist. For your question I would say this is the most biblical answer on this topic;

3 Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and l how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( Joh 3:3,5-6; l Joh 3:8)

4 Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:

Confession of Faith of 1689 much less can men that receive not the Christian religion o be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess. ( Mat 22:14, 13:20-21; Heb 6:4-5; Joh 6:44-45,65; 1Jo 2:24-25; Act 4:12; Joh 4:22; 17:3)

But none of those passages specifically address people who have not reached the age of accountability, e.g. infants or any young child who has no real knowledge of good and evil. And this is one of my big pet peeves with :Confessions of Faith"! So many articles are actually not specifically supported by scripture. But the two passages I cited do -- at least they do better than any of your cites. We shouldn't forget that the major thrust of the scriptures is addressing people of the age of accountability who have a real knowlege of good and evil. Infants, babies, small children, mentally incompetent, etc. do NOT! Not one of the passages above prove that God sovereignly elects such people who I have just described.

So you don't believe any children are saved if they die before the "age of accountability"?

I didn't say that. All I'm saying is that all the bible cites that Icon provided as "proof", don't address children or babies or infants, etc.. To counter his cites, I provided two of my own which make a much stronger than any he has provided. Again, please see Mat 18:14 and 2Sam 12:23.

I see. Thanks for answering.

Allow me to elaborate a bit. God has elected all those He intends to save, before creation.;
9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began.,

We can agree that God is absolutely Perfect. That tells us His knowledge cannot increase, or diminish. The Father has already given all people who He intends to save to the Son. .Jn6:37. Jesus dies a Covenant death to save each and everyone He intended to.
The confessional statement is very clear;
3 Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and l how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word. ( Joh 3:3,5-6; l Joh 3:8)

The verses from Jn 3, describe the unseen work of the Spirit of God...[
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

There is no age of accountability. We are conceived in sin and guilty, so any infant, child, or mentally handicapped person that becomes saved, it is this work of the Spirit of God doing the saving. It is all of grace, and mercy.

[QUOTE="Rufus, post:

[All I'm saying is that all the bible cites that Icon provided as "proof", don't address children or babies or infants, etc..]
Rufus...it says;3 Elect infants dying in infancy ???? Why do you say it does not mention infants???

[ To counter his cites, I provided two of my own which make a much stronger than any he has provided. Again, please see Mat 18:14 and 2Sam 12:23.]

You cite mt 18:14 as if it means all children are saved no matter what. However if you read vs.6 it describes these children as "those Who believe"....... 6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.

Beware of millstone necklaces.

God only allows elect infants to die.
All those infants who die are saved, no matter how bad the parents may have been.

David spoke of his infant son who died soon after being born as having been automatically saved...



His attendants asked him, “Why are you acting this way? While the child was alive,
you fasted and wept, but now that the child is dead, you get up and eat!”

He answered, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept. I thought,
‘Who knows? The Lord may be gracious to me and let the child live.’
But now that he is dead, why should I go on fasting?
Can I bring him back again?
I will go to him, but he will not return to me.” 2 Samuel 12:21-23

That death came after David had committed some horrible sins...

How do you know God didn't reveal to David that his son would be in heaven and not that all children who die go to heaven?

When David only first discovered his son had died?

God is fair and just to all who fail to reach the age of accountability.
If not?
And God will send some infants who die to the Lake of Fire?

That would make God no better than the Baal worshipers who threw their children into the fire.

We are saved by only one work. Not works.


Many Jews were 'works oriented for salvation.'
They were always seeking some work to do to inherit eternal life, like the rich young ruler sought after.

Jesus said salvation is not by works, but by one work only. To believe in Him.

Where is the age of accountability in scripture?
Does this negate the necessity of being born from above?
And how long does God need to reveal something?

Icon, with all due respect, brother, you can keep repeating the Johanine passages until the cows come up , but none of them speak to the destiny of non-adults. In fact, the entire bible is written to people of the age of accountability since readers everywhere are commanded to repent and believe the Gospel! Infants, babies and small children are not capable of grasping these spiritual concepts -- not capable of understanding what it means to repent, believe, obey an invisible God, etc. When Jesus addressed Nicodemus, was he an an adult or an infant, baby or child? How are the sons of men justified? Is it not by faith!? Explain to me how a little baby is capable of believing the gospel? Even with Rom 8:29-30, one would have to assume that the very young or mentally incompetent are included in that passage.

Secondly, the "age of accountability" (or adulthood) clearly is implied. Avail yourself of a concordance and plug in the phrases "twenty years" and "twenty years old". the former show up in my NIV 41 times and for the latter 30 times . And then after you plug in those phrase, start to read those passages. Did you know, for example, that only the Israelities who were UNDER 20 years old were permitted into the promised Land (Num 14:29), because God did not allow virtually any of the first generation out of Egypt to enter due to their rebellious hearts? Did you know that God commanded that no one under 20 years old was to be conscripted into the army? Clearly, God drew the line between adulthood and younger at 20 years old. And even Natural Revelation (reality as we all know it to be in this world) pretty much agrees with God's age assessment since most of the world's governments set very similar guidelines. Even our judicial system recognizes, as God did, levels of accountability. Some children who commit crimes as charged as minors (or juveniles) while others are tried as adults, etc.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as "innocent" human beings -- whether they be adults or tiny infants! All are guilty of sin since God imputed Adam's sin upon all. One does not have to actually commit a personal sin to be found guilty of sin! Therefore, this is a huge assumption that you make that God just acquits the guilty-by-imputation; for He would not be unjust if he condemned infants, babies and young children. God is not morally obligated to save ANYONE, including the newborn!

So...to the best of my knowledge there are only two truly relevant passages in scripture with respect to the "underage": Mat 18:14 and 2Sam 12:23. And both are these are pretty strong in terms of how God very likely deals with the "underage" when they die. After all, how could David be so confident that he would see his deceased baby after he died!? And there's good reason to believe that the "little ones" in Mat 18 is used as a double entendre (i.e. used to refer literally to small children and spiritually to adults). Jesus clearly said of both, with a small child in his lap, that his Father is not willing that any of these "little ones" should perish! Therefore, these are two passages that one can truly hang their hat on without performing feats of mental gymnastics or eiesegesis. No assumptions need to be brought to bear upon either of these texts, which is certainly not the case with any of your cites -- all of which are non seqiturs.

Then those children are not saved by grace since you are clearly saying that God is morally obligated to save small children. You are clearly saying that that infants, babies, children are ENTITLED to be saved. God is indebted to save such.

See my 917. The concept is in scripture.

Matthew 18:14 is similar to 1 Timothy 2:3-4. While I believe the truth reveals the heart of God, I don't believe it expresses the will of God. The verses in 2 Samuel speak of a particular instance, and no indication is given that this is true in every case. I think both are inconclusive on the subject.