The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

“It was certainly not a different gospel to the gospel that Jesus taught and the gospel which the other apostles [let's call them the Jerusalem crowd] came to understand”

they all understood by the holy spirit after Jesus sent it to them Peter understood already

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all that word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached; how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Ghost and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree: him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly; not to all the people, but unto witnesses chosen before of God, even to us, who did eat and drink with him after he rose from the dead. And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins. While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

peter isnt demanding they be circumcised according to Moses he’s talking about the same circumcision pul taught later baptism

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The other apostles all understood the gospel before pul was converted himself to Christianity already well established before his conversion to the church

circumsicion is t something oeter and pul argued about at all it was what the Pharisees were trying to push on them Peter is the first to stand and say no it’s grace not circumcision

“But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses. And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; and put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:5-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter and Paul’s disagreement was of a different matter they both already understood circumcision and the law of Moses had absolutely nothing to do with salvstion in Christ

when Peter and the others received the spirit at pentocost the gospel was being preached they didn’t need to wait for Paul the Pharisee to be converted to Christianity they were already chosen by Jesus to preach the one and only gospel to everyone beginning with Jerusalem

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.( not only to Jews ) He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter and Paul argued over Peter not living according to Jewish laws

“But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation. But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭2:11-14‬ ‭

some people came from James and began to not associate with the gentiles in the church and Peter was going along with that that’s what they were arguing about

peter explained circumcision isn’t required nor keeping Moses law . We should realize how the lord is and who his servants and messengers are

and that Paul nor Peter were perfect in everything they said and did. If two apostles can disagree like Peter and Paul did for a moment or even like this dispute between pul and barnabus

“And Barnabas determined to take with them John, whose surname was Mark. But Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.

And the contention was so sharp between them, that they departed asunder one from the other: and so Barnabas took Mark, and sailed unto Cyprus; and Paul chose Silas, and departed, being recommended by the brethren unto the grace of God.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭15:37-40‬ ‭

we should realize even the apostles weren’t perfect and they also argued and disagreed at times but they didn’t then turn against one another they parted ways but later came together

“Only Luke is with me. Take Mark, and bring him with thee: for he is profitable to me for the ministry.”
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭4:11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is an apostle he’s the same as the other apostles no more and no less it doesn’t matter if we hear the gospel from Peter John James Paul Matthew ect

“And last of all he was seen of me also, as of one born out of due time. For I am the least of the apostles, that am not meet to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. But by the grace of God I am what I am one of the apostles ) and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me. Therefore whether it were I or they, so we preach, and so ye believed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:8-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Doesn’t matter if people heard Peter preaching the gospel in acts ten received the soirit and were baptized or if they heard it from Stephen in chapter 8 of acts both men and women hewrd and believed and were baptized

Or it doesn’t matter if someone hears the gospel from Paul one of Jesus apostles they are all preaching the gospel that Jesus preached first and then died to pay for

“The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; He hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised, To preach the acceptable year of the Lord. And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭4:18-19, 21‬ ‭KJV‬‬

really all I’m saying is we can’t reject what Jesus said in the gospel they all preached it and agreed to that first and they built upon it not layering and removing it

If we can’t agree with the things Jesus taught we won’t ever understand and grasp the epistles Paul isn’t the foundation of our faith Jesus is the foundation of his faith and ours ll of Jesus apostles should be heard and considered and believes and learned from but moreso the gospel Jesus words in the gospel tbey are all preaching should be heard and believed because that’s where thier Doctrine came from

“Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

already we see the doctrine Jesus taught them eas sent to all nations of people Paul is one of them one of that group called to preach the everlasting gospel to the whole world and we still read and hear thier witnesses today I wish we had more but it’s all part of one doctrine

each has different strengths and focuses in tbier writings


It’s important to understand Paul is an apostle he’s no less and no more he’s one of twelve men chosen by Jesus in person after his resurrection to be his witnesses to all the world of the gospel

oh dear
1st
if Peter had understood there would have been no quarrel at Antioch, when he came to concede that Paul was right he did quote that God had already taught him through Cornelius ... yet he still made that mistake at Antioch.

That's what I'm telling you. They knew, God showed them but they couldn't get their heads around it.

2nd
Paul was apostle to the Gentiles, he's our apostle. Peter James and John ALL agreed Paul should go to the Gentiles while they went to the Jews.

There is no 3rd coming. The 2nd coming is the final coming. The 2nd resurrection will occur at/after the end of the 1000 years - while King Jesus is still here and still in charge.

That passage is one of the most misunderstood among all of End Times bible prophecy.

I am a millenialist too. Christ will be here again with Christ's rule over the earth, for a thousand years or about a thousand years, at least. The final rebellion means the time for the new earth is ready, for creation that yet now groans for this with revealing of the redemption, and the repentant from humanity who are redeemed, in Christ. Then that which is remaining with curse since rebellion in sin started will be burned away, those subject to the final judgment will each be judged for the proper amount of the misery they will suffer, and be cast into that, which symbolically is called a lake of fire, while God provides the new earth to all others not of unrepentant humanity that goes to what they are sentenced to. But I don't know when the rapture will come, and I won't trust any who teach anything about when it is. I think many miss too many things because they all do not understand Mystery Babylon, which is about to fall, and no one sees connection to Isaiah 24. Though believers won't be left to this earth under the judgments on those living still as they choose on the earth, and would be called up by then, there is no promise to be taken up to be delivered from any problems in this world. Those who will be God's people must take their own action to come out from Mystery Babylon, they shouldn't have been remaining with it, and there is no conforming to God's design in this world that God meant, as was shown. We should come to that still, that was modeled for us.

There are many explanations. It's very hard interpreting prophecies about the future until their fulfillment.

All of us need to be, at least partly, pan-millennialists--it will all PAN out!!

Anyone can find a Bible verse that 'seems' to support a position they favor, and then piece together a study that sounds like their position is supported in God's Word.

However... if there is just ONE Bible Scripture that clearly goes against their position, then it means their position is just a fabrication, and not actually what God's Word teaches.

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

What Jesus said above that His coming and gathering of His Church will be AFTER the tribulation, directly contradicts any suggested idea of a pre-trib rapture. So slice n' dice of Bible Scripture to try and support a false position while omitting clear Scripture like the above simply does not work. We are not to play juggling acts with God's Word, but accept God's Word as written.

Likewise when the man-made pre-trib rapture theory wrongly preaches that 1 Thessalonians 4 is about a pre-trib rapture, it is going against that very Bible Scripture, because Apostle Paul linked the future RESURRECTION with those asleep saints when Jesus descends from Heaven, that He will bring them with Him when He comes...

1 Thess 4:13-17
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

The word "prevent" above is actually a Greek word that means 'precede, i.e., to go beforehand'. Those of us still alive on that day shall not 'precede' those asleep saints that Jesus will bring with Him. It means they must be RESURRECTED first. And Jesus showed in John 4:60 when He will raise those asleep saints, i.e., on the LAST DAY.

16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV

The above means Apostle Paul actually taught a POST-TRIBULATIONAL gathering of the Church, i.e., on the LAST DAY when the future RESURRECTION will occur. And that is what Paul was teaching about also in 1 Cor.15 with the "last trump", which is the final 7th Trumpet of Revelation.

God's word is very clear on the subject as shown from your post. What is left out is what happens before our gathering to Christ at the 7th trump. At the 6th seal, the 6th trump and the 6th vial (666), Satan is thrown to earth and stands in the temple of God claiming to be God as II Thes 2:3-4 and Rev 12:7-9 clearly states. Many will be deceived into worshipping him because they were never taught that he comes first.

At the 7th trump of I Cor 15:52, everybody is changed into a spiritual body. There will be no one in a flesh body during the 1000 yr reign of Christ. Understand that Satan will come first, before Jesus claiming to be God. He will deceive the world into worshipping him as God by his deception. Many will fall away and worship Satan thinking he is God. Just before the real Christ returns, the 6 bowls of wrath, Rev 16, are poured out in judgement on all those that are found worshipping Satan. After, this the 7th trump will sound as Christ returns to earth at the Mt. of Olives. In mark 13:20 we are told the days of the tribulation of Antichrist (Satan) would be shortened from a 3 1/2 yr period or no flesh would be saved. In Rev 9:5 we are told it is shortened to a 5 month period. Hope this helps.

Not sure what you mean by the above statement, but I'm often pointing out the connections between Isaiah 24 and certain eschatological [verses] :

(for example) Post #1594 - https://christianchat.com/threads/a...chance-to-state-your-case.184571/post-4129468

This idea that the "6th seal" and the "6th trump" and the "6th vial" all take place at the same time, is only just so much human reasoning.

Even your own words (in these two posts of yours) evidence this.


Didn't you just say [quote at top ^ ] that the "6th vial [/6th bowl]" is when Satan is cast down to the earth AND STANDS IN THE TEMPLE OF GOD CLAIMING TO BE GOD (per 2Th2:3-4, as you point out)... but now it seems you're saying the last vial [/bowl] you mention (the 6th of "6 bowls of wrath" as you call them) immediately precedes Christ's RETURN... and will be among the bowls / vials which are poured out upon those who worshipped Satan (as you explain it).

Now you are saying that "the days of the tribulation of Antichrist" (whom you are incorrectly EQUATING to "Satan") will have been "shortened" to a period of "5 months" per Rev9:5--which verse pertains to the "5th Trumpet" time-slot... not the "6th Trumpet" time-slot that you suggested was Satan's COMING [cast down] to SIT IN THE TEMPLE [2Th2:3-4]
--sooooo (you sound a bit confused), WHICH IS IT?!

Read Revelation 18, carefully seeing details. Then read Isaiah 24, carefully seeing details. I can't do that for you for you to see. I have already been seeing it. If you do this, I expect you will see the parallels that I figured out are about the same thing that will happen.

op: the church, Paul agrees with post-trib?:

Biblically speaking, we see Daniel, Matthew, and John agreeing with Christ and His
Second Prophesied Coming For Israel...

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

Paul agreeing With Christ And His [ Mystery ] Gathering Of The Body Of Christ Ending
Grace Which is [ Pre-trib ] Before the continuation of the Prophesied Great Tribulation
Of Israel Ending with the previous aforementioned "Second Coming Of Christ" For them!

More available here:

God's Great GRACE Departure!

+ here:

Biblically "Concise Condensed": Evidence Of A Pre-Tribulational Rapture Of The Church!
(K Lawson)

Amen.

"The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation."
Another one solved after only 2000 years. Impressive.

Brother Gary, send me a pm when you get a chance

But I tell you of a truth, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the kingdom of God.

I'm very curious to hear everyone's thoughts on this verse.

And how bout this one too.

Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

So here we are seven pages in.. ooh good number. Were all in agreement now how the Church and Paul agree Post Trib? Hmm to soon? Lol smile. No I do not agree. Reading day in day out just Christian posts you understand why He (by His sweet holy Spirit) to always be praying about all things. That alone He cares about everything in our lifes. 2nd to have His word before our eyes every moment of every day somerthing I need to work on. I thought the song playing fit right in

"Now is the time to worship".

Not sure why this was coming to my mind "“Son of man, if a country sins against me by being unfaithful and I stretch out my hand against it to cut off its food supply and send famine upon it and kill its people and their animals, even if these three men—Noah, Daniel and Job—were in it, they could save only themselves by their righteousness, declares the Sovereign LORD. " He talked about this more then once.

I do wonder what we really believe. I can share stories about just my life in Christ which would (please not to boast only for Him) amaze some. But when push comes to shove where do we stand. To share the past.. I know what its like to have a gun pointed at you/us my wife was right by my side.. give me all your money? I get ..hmm got stupid. I chase them down with my truck.. .. there were two. I get the one.. I threaten him really bad to get the other one to come back and he does. Always been good at reading people.. in moments like that. Yeah.. sad have a few of these stories. I know how the world thinks about this but I have Christ and if you ever read my post you never hear of these... they bring no glory at all to Him.

The point I am trying to make is.... well the classic saying "talk is cheap". Christ GOD came to His own and one time He said as everyone left "are you going to leave me also?" To that Peter said “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life. We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.” Yet when push comes to shove He shows us who we really are. They take Him and no one stood with Him no one He was alone.

Many of the Jewish people knew the Torah inside and out yet He standing face to face they never saw Him. So far in life we all know that we know that we know it never turns out like we thougth. Yeah I have no desire haha.. the 1st song I sang.. whole huge Chruch stood and the later the haha youth pastor says "don't let it go to you head". I have no desire no rush for a time I might never see. All I know is with out twisting in anyway.. I will be with Him some time where He is. He is where the Father is. Again just taking Him at His word. He will come voice shout trump and at that moment dead rise we change all go up together. I am very comforted with those word.

Don't be in a rush.. you might be very disapointed because what you believed you were .. you were not. He will always show us.. its never us alway Him. Remember they all left Him.. yet not us huh

Precious publican, it would probably "be Better" to start a new threads to discuss these new subjects, that way there is less risk of "derailing the topic" of this particular thread, eh?

Peace to you...

We have not been subject to wrath.

2 Peter 3:1-9

1 Beloved, I now write to you this second epistle (in both of which I stir up your pure minds by way of reminder), 2 that you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the apostles of the Lord and Savior, 3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, “Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


Here is the issue 1. you are to "know this." scoffer will come in the last days


2. all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation.” Therefore, it can't be the tribulation Period now, can it? IF ALL THINGS CONTINUE as they have always.

3. People willfully forget the promise of HIS coming Great falling away.


4. But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
which is After the coming of the Lord

So for the judgment on the earth to happen, Jesus has to come and receive us unto Himself as He promised that so many do not believe anymore.