The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

No!

It only matters if you are trying to contrive false doctrine.

If you will "study it out" very carefully, you should arrive at the conclusion that the "general tribulations" and the "specific great tribulation" are one-and-the-same. What Jesus described as "great tribulation" in Matthew 24:21 has been going on since circa 70 A.D. - and, will end at a future point in time at the beginning of the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet Events.

As I see it, it doesn't even matter whether the 2 "the" are there in verse 14 (Rev7:14), because of several other factors:

--Jesus didn't use the definite article ('THE') when referring to "For then shall be GREAT tribulation" (Matt24:21), speaking of a very specific point in time (Matt24:15) where Jesus points back to "[when ye THEREFORE shall SEE] the AOD [singular, singular] spoken of by Daniel the prophet..." (which can ONLY be a reference to the one in Dan12:11--"AOD [singular, singular] SET UP [H5414]") which is set in a CONTEXT of very specific "day amounts" (paralleling Daniel 7:20-25... which [PARTS OF] parallels that of Rev13:1,5-7, i.e. the SECOND HALF of the 7-yr Trib... that immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19);


--the "AOD" of THIS context (Matt24:15) takes place FOLLOWING "the beginning of birth PANGS" [i.e. the SEALS, that "kick off" the 7-yr period]; IOW, the "SEALS" ARE "the beginning of birth PANGS" that precede and lead up to the "AOD [singular, singular]" (which occurs at MID-trib; same time-slot as 2Th2:4b "who SITTETH in the temple of God..." [re: the man of sin]);


--the "a great multitude... of all the nations" (Rev7:9,14) is SET IN CONTRADISTICTION to the "144,000 servants of our God" (12,000 from each of the 12 tribes of Israel listed in that passage, vv.4-8 [see also 1:1b]), which means they will EXIST ON THE EARTH in/during the same time period as each other (the Trib yrs); Verse 4 says the 144,000 need to be "sealed" (for protection) before the 1st Trumpet events can commence to unfold; and the "a great multitude... of all the nations" are shown as "coming out of GREAT tribulation" which "GREAT tribulation" only commences AFTER the 1st Trumpet, at the 5th Trumpet / 1st Woe unto the earth... so AFTER the 144,000 are sealed;


--Rev1:1 / 1:19c / 4:1 makes clear that the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" on the earth STARTS with "SEAL #1" (THAT is the START of the 7-yr period); which is PARALLEL to both Paul's words in 1Th5:1-3 (its ARRIVAL is at the "birth PANG [SINGULAR]") and the FIRST ITEM of Jesus' LIST of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" being in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5--"G5100 - tis- 'A CERTAIN ONE ['a certain one' BRINGING DECEPTION]" aka the 1st SEAL's rider on the white horse WITH A 'BOW' ('bow' often meaning 'DECEPTION')--parallel 2Th2:9a "whose COMING is after/according to the working of Satan..." which is parallel Dan9:27a[,26b]... and also parallel Dan11:36 (see the parallel wording in 2Th2:9,4a again);






Bottom line, what is spoken of in Rev7 is NOT *about* things that take place throughout history (or even since the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY has been in existence [Eph1:20-23]), though I think we all AGREE that we, like the Thessalonians (2Th1:4) experience "persecutions and tribulations [that ye ENDURE]"... but is covering A VERY SPECIFIC, *future*, LIMITED time-period (the SECOND HALF of the *future* SEVEN YEAR PERIOD) that immediately precedes and LEADS UP TO Christ's Second Coming TO THE EARTH--ALL of these related passages AGREE.
So, it makes ZERO DIFFERENCE whether the definite article ('THE') is used in 7:14 OR NOT! It's referring to the SAME POINT in the chronology that both Jesus and Dan12:1 spoke to! (i.e. what will commence at MID-trib)

70 AD was the great tribulation.

According to Luke 21:12, the 70ad events (vv.12-24a,b) take place "BEFORE ALL" the beginning of birth pangs that vv.8-11 had just spelled out [Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 = "the beginning of birth pangs"].


The SEQUENCE is important to note (and I pointed out much of it in my previous post).



[so, no... what the 70ad events were (the text states) is "great DISTRESS in the land, and wrath upon THIS PEOPLE"... which thereafter "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined" per Dan9:26c -- and which is DISTINCT from what Jesus referenced by saying "For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION..."]

A look at the false premises you must adhere to in order to come to the conclusion there is a seven-year tribulation period.

1. That God can't count.
2. That Jesus did not fulfil the six requirements for the completion of the 70th week.
3. That the Prince in Daniel 9:26 is not Jesus.
4. That God the Father took away the 70th week of Daniel from His Son and gave it to Satan.
5. That Satan destroyed Jerusalem because of the abominations of the Jews.

I've mentioned these before (I think in this thread), but here I'll mention just a couple again:

--the Daniel 9:24-27 time-prophecy (regarding "THY [DANIEL'S] PEOPLE" and "THY [DANIEL'S] HOLY CITY") is written out SEQUENTIALLY; and is very PRECISE (timing-wise);


--between Rev4:1-5 [up there] / SEAL #1 [event on earth] and Vial #7 [events--Armageddon on earth] one can make out *PRECISELY* "2520 DAYS" as plotted out precisely on a calendar--(IOW, it is not merely "random" but VERY PRECISE);
God had this "time-prophecy" in Dan9:24-27 WRITTEN SEQUENTIALLY (and it is VERY PRECISE), so yes God can count (but many people, by injecting their own ideas INTO the text [and related texts], cannot discern its meaning... its sequence... nor its VERY PRECISE calendar-plotment [for lack of a better term, lol])

Again, PAUL (writing AFTER Jesus' ascension) wrote Romans 11:27 which corresponds with Isaiah 27:9,12-13 / Matt24:29-31 (about the time of Jesus' Second Coming TO THE EARTH Rev19), which parallels one of the items LISTED in Dan9:24 prophecy ABOUT ISRAEL [i.e. Israel's *FUTURE*] (which also explains the numerous "UNTIL / TILL" passages that are related to this matter, which I mentioned in an earlier post... Lk21:24c[/Rev11:2] being just ONE of those--where the phrase "the TIMES of the Gentiles" [not speaking of the "church age"] speaks to the matter of "Gentile domination over Israel" which STARTED in 605/6bc [think: Neb's statue/image/dream with Neb as "HEAD OF GOLD"] and which will not be CONCLUDED until Christ's Second Coming to the earth Rev19)

Verse 26b's "prince THAT SHALL COME / COMING" (parallel the wording in 1Jn2:18 "YE HAVE HEARD"/an OT-pointer) is indeed distinct from the earlier mention of "UNTO the messiah the prince" (v.25) and is SUBSEQUENT ALSO to when "shall messiah BE CUT OFF" (v.26a)... and subsequent even to the 70ad events (v.26b) when "the people OF [the prince that SHALL COME / COMING] shall DESTROY the city and the sanctuary" IN 70AD (like Jesus SAID on Palm Sunday right before He was "CUT OFF"... in His words of Lk19:42-44 [and DID the Zech9:9 thing--BOTH having to do with "the CITY / JERUSALEM"--the time-prophecy's SUBJECT]);


--it would be SUPERFLUOUS to write "[the prince] THAT SHALL COME/COMING" (after v.25 already talked about "UNTO the messiah the prince") *if* it were referring to the one having already been spoken of in v.25,26a! No need to write that ADDED phrase if it were referring to THE SAME PERSON already mentioned. NO!

Jesus Himself will be the One OPENING THE FIRST SEAL that "kicks off" that 70th Week, BECAUSE HE IS IN CHARGE! That's why 5:6 states "[Lamb]... STANDING" (see Isa3:13!) He'll be UP THERE when He OPENS that SEAL which will commence the 70th Week's events UNFOLDING UPON THE EARTH

Huh? (Satan?)

The numerous "UNTIL / TILL's" correspond with Dan9:26b's "desolaTIONS [PLURAL] are determined"... BY GOD, not "Satan"... (CONCERNING "Israel" [the CITY and "THY [Daniel's] PEOPLE"]--which is what the Dan9:24-27 time-prophecy is ABOUT);
one example: Acts 3:21 "whom it behooves heaven to receive UNTIL the timeS of restoration OF ALL THINGS WHICH GOD HATH SPOKEN by the mouth of all the holy prophets FROM THE AGE" (OT prophets / OT prophecies--Daniel included)







I could say much more (and have, in many past posts) on this, but I realize long posts are rarely ever actually READ. lol

Have you ever heard of dual fulfillment of Bible prophesy? It means that the prophecy is fulfilled in part soon after it is announced, and fulfilled completely at a much later time. So some prophecies look like they've been already fulfilled in 70ad, but actually only fulfilled in part. That means that prophecy will come to pass at a later time but much more in full. The end times prophecies are like that.

Also see:

What does it mean that a prophecy has a double/dual fulfillment?
Dual Prophecy in the Bible: Insights from Old and New Testaments


🦽

In the multiplicity of words there is sin. Dark is dark and light is light, and gray is only the absence of light.

God defined the purpose of the 70th week, and when it was over God said, "it is finished."

Isaiah 7:14 might be an example of this ^ :

[quoting from one writer]

"[Matthew 1] v.21 The messiah's name Jesus (i.e. Joshua - means the Lord is salvation) is significant because is connects Jesus with the suffering servant narratives of Isaiah (i.e. the one who would bear the sins of Israel).
Formal quote v.23
[Matthew 1] vv.22-23 Isa.7:14 (8:8-10 [LXX]) - this seemed to have contemporary meaning to Isaiah and yet Matthew indicates it is fulfilled in Christ."

--Lee Campbell, Ph.D.

[end quoting]





... meaning, a baby was indeed born in the "near" context (of Isa7); whereas Jesus was born as a "far fulfillment" of this very text.



Yeah (sort of), but in the case of what the Luke 21:12 SEQUENCE MATTER informs us about, some items took place [/were to take place] BEFORE ALL the beginning of birth pangs (i.e. the 70ad events in vv.12-24a,b), whereas OTHER THINGS will take place FOLLOWING the beginning of birth pangs [which Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11 speak to]... so FOLLOWING "the BoBPs" is what Matt24:9 and verses thereafter speak to (INCLUDING vv.15,21 "For then shall be GREAT TRIBULATION"... etc)





[the "BoBPs" ^ ARE the "SEALS" which take place WITHIN the "things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN; Rv1:1/1:19c/4:1]"... the 7-yr Trib yrs / 70th Week ('for ONE WEEK')]

^ and...

--in the "70ad events," THIS: (Lk21:24) "and they shall be led away captive into all the nations, AND Jerusalem shall be TRODDEN-DOWN OF the Gentiles UNTIL..." ;


--whereas in the far-future Second Coming of Christ to the earth (Rev19), THIS: (Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 / Rom11:27) "ye shall be gathered ONE BY ONE, O ye children of Israel. [...] ... and shall worship the Lord in the holy mount, AT JERUSALEM"
[at the "GREAT trumpet" = Matt24:29-31 / Isaiah 27:9,12-13 (AFTER the GREAT trib / SECOND HALF)]







IOW, COMPLETELY *OPPOSITE* ends / outcomes.




[This ^ CORRESPONDS also with Hosea 5:14[,15]-6:3, and its own "TILL / UNTIL" mention! (from the point in time of His Ascension!)]

Jesus is always the latter fulfillment, and the pictures and types that were in the near future were simply teaching about some aspect of Messiah's redemptive work.

^ Acts 3:21 (Peter speaking to "ye men of Israel" [v.12] who believed Jesus was DEAD as proof that HE WASN'T the Messiah),
"whom indeed it behooves heaven to receive until the times of restoration of all things of which God spoke by the mouth of His holy prophets from the age."




[IOW, it simply is NOT the case that "ALL OT PROPHECIES" have been fully fulfilled in Christ's FIRST ADVENT... MANY OT PROPHECIES are yet to be fulfilled [not APART from Christ!]! (Contrary to what "Covenant Theology" proponents insist); And this INCLUDES a great deal of what Jesus spoke about in the Gospels during His earthly ministry;
Recall, there are TWO "RAISE" issues in Acts 3: one regarding His being "raised" to a position of prominence in His earthly ministry BEFORE the Cross/His death; the other regarding His being "raised" from the dead AFTER the Cross--The "Amill-teachings" [and others who also hold to Covenant Theology] DISREGARDS THIS DISTINCTION, in Acts 3, and thus MISS ITS IMPORT, meaning, they do not actually grasp what Peter is saying in this text / passage]

There is no "dual fulfillment" of Bible prophecy - only people who are not dedicated to understanding what the Bible is really actually saying.

Every End Times prophecy has exactly one fulfillment.

Sure there is. Isaiah 61 has relevance to Israel in Babylon, and Christ and the church.

I have to step in and correct the above false statements.

That there is no 'secret rapture' is confirmed by Bible Scripture, for there are only 2 comings of Christ taught in God's Word, even with the very first time that prophecy was given in Zechariah 9:9-10. His 1st coming was to be meek as a lamb, to die on the cross. But His second and only other coming is to take rule over all His enemies here on earth, with His faithful saints He brings with Him.

There is no pre-trib rapture written of anywhere in Bible Scripture. Lord Jesus was even emphatic that His future coming to gather His Church will be AFTER... the "great tribulation" (as per Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27, which aligns with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 of Christ's coming and gathering of His Church.)

What we have today with many of the deniers of this are those who have spent much of their lives believing and pushing the false pre-tribulational rapture theory, so it is too late for them to back out of supporting the lie now, they feel. Thing is, what is more important, one's soul or one's false reputation in continuing to preach a lie?

I'm Gods house, and I'm sitting right here.

I think you're getting your answer.

.
I've watched a number of films pertaining to the Rapture and every one of
them left out the part where the remains of 2,000 years of deceased
Christians from all over the globe will be restored to life. (1Thess 4:14-17)

The films also left out the part where Jesus' followers rise into the air to
meet him. Instead the films showed them here one second and gone the
next, but I rather suspect the real event will resemble a human Oort Cloud
impossible to ignore.

( The "blink of an eye" spoken of in 1Cor 15:52 pertains to the followers'
transformation from weak body to strong rather than the duration of the
event.)

The scene is likely to get pretty noisy too what with all the cheering,
laughing, and shouting that's sure to take place when Jesus' followers
receive their new bodies and from thence be forever immune to death and
old age. (1Cor 15:51-53)

The films also showed tiny children being taken while their parents are left
behind. That's highly doubtful because minors have often been collateral
damage in the Bible when God slammed their parents, e.g. zero children
survived the Flood, and 120,00 would've been lost had God found it
necessary to follow thru with His threat to annihilate Nineveh. (Jonah 4:11)

One of the movies scored a bull's eye. A Christian pastor is shown left
behind and to him it was no mystery. He frankly admitted to being a career
minister rather than a called minister. In other words: he was a man of
business rather than a man of faith.
_

The lack of understanding reflected in this OP betrays the lack of knowledge about what scripture says:

Acts 1:11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

The Second Coming is not at all the in the same manner as when He departed at His ascension. He was showering His disciples with blessing and instruction. In His Second Coming, He will come with wrath, destruction and killing of His enemies. The character "manner" are polar opposites from one another.

However, rapture deniers are free to believe whatever they want, even when such beliefs defy the rational understanding of scripture and common sense. The violation of common sense is in calling it a "secret" rapture. What could possibly be so secret about millions of people disappearing from the earth without a trace? There we are, pointing to rational thought, for which I do not apologize.

Believing the Lord will leave His body here to suffer the tribulational wrath of God poured out upon all the earth and all peoples on the earth, that too defies what we are promised in that we are not reserved for wrath. Hey, anyone who wishes to stay here for all that, perhaps the Lord will honor such a masochistic desire. Go for it, because I'm no enough of a "he-man" to want that for myself.

So, whether one believes in the rapture or not, it doesn't matter so long as they believe in the Gospel of Christ's crucifixion, burial and resurrection...saved by grace through faith. All else takes a back seat.

MM