The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

TMS · Oct 12, 2024

What is the first resurrection?
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

the next time we are told that Jesus will come is
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1Th 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Ballaurena · Oct 12, 2024

Inquisitor said:

Sounds like it might be the difference between the early and late harvest. I was just reading about this in reading up on the biblical feast days since today was The Day of Atonement.

The Old Covenant focuses on physical harvests - grain & oil/olives vs. wine/grapes; but the New Covenant is about the spiritual harvests - the church vs. from tribulation (consider Rev. 14:14-20).

The summer season (Pentecost) is about the first fruits of the harvest - It's no wonder that this was the day God chose to send the Holy Spirit. We are now into the fall season that is about the feast of ingathering. Both of these descriptions are from Exodus 23:16, though more context of the observances are in Deut. 16 and Lev. 23.

BOY · Oct 13, 2024

TMS said:

Jesus said the Great Tribulation starts when you see the abomination of desolation standing there In the holy place.

The Great Tribulation is 3 1/2 years or 42 months or time times and a half a time 1260 Days

But the seven year. Comes from different factors

1 the 70th week is called Jacob's trouble, that's 7 years.

2 The beginning of sorrow It's before the man of sin and will be a very rocky road.Matt24

3 Daniel 9:27And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

So even though the Great Tribulation is only three and a half years. There still is a period of time of seven years of trouble.

thus Christians call it a seven year tribulation.

Saul-to-Paul · Oct 13, 2024

Inquisitor said:

John 11:24-25 KJV
24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Therefore the first resurrection is when someone who was dead yet live. That someone must be already alive to believe. Clearly Martha was speaking of the second resurrection.

Revelation 20: 4,5 KJV
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

But these souls are reigning in heaven. Are saved men on the earth reigning in heaven?

Luke 17:20,21 KJV
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

The first resurrection is of the soul. If a person has not been resurrected in their soul existence while alive on the earth then it's guaranteed that person will partake in the second death. (which btw is not being cast into the lake of fire)

Only God can raise the dead.

Ephesians 2:5 KJV
5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened (made alive) us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved; )

DavyP · Oct 13, 2024

Saul-to-Paul said:

The very mention of a 1ST... resurrection automatically implies at least ONE MORE LIKE IT.

The 'implied' 2nd resurrection is... actually another resurrection unto eternal life through Faith on Jesus Christ. Many have it wrong claiming the 2nd resurrection hinted at with Rev.20:5 is about the wicked being raised after... Christ's "thousand years" reign.

John 5:28-29 -- Jesus showed that on the day of His future coming, ALL... that are in the graves shall come forth, either unto the "resurrection of life", or to the "resurrection of damnation". That means the resurrection of the wicked happens on the day of Christ's return also.

Pilgrimshope · Oct 13, 2024

TMS said:

The secret rapture doctrine contradicts the words of Christ in Matthew chapter 13 when He said that the wheat and tares would grow together until the "end of the world" and then would be separated. According to the two stage teaching of His coming, both groups would not grow together until the end of the world.

The righteous would be separated from the wicked seven years before the end. And what about the promise of the resurrection? Christ said, concerning the righteous, "And I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40). No one denies that this means the last day of the world. Yet Paul declares that the saints are caught up to meet the Lord at the same time the dead in Christ are raised.

don't miss this the saints that are living are called up at the same time that Jesus raises the dead. Don't seperate this event.

He says, "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air" (1 Thessalonians 4:16, 17).
Please keep in mind that Jesus called this resurrection the "last day." But how could it be the "last day" if this gathering of the saints takes place seven years before the end of the world? And how could the "last trump" sound if it really wasn't the very last moment of time? Can you imagine the graves opening and the righteous rising and no one knowing that it had occurred? And consider this additional testimony of the Word of God: ...............

Revelation 6:16,17 When the wicked see Christ come, they cry out to the rocks and mountains, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
Matthew 24:27 "For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be."
1 Corinthians 15:52 "For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised."
Psalm 50:3 "Our God shall come, and shall not keep silence."
Revelation 1:7 "Every eye shall see him. "
Matthew 24:30 "Then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."
Matthew 24:31 "He shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other." (This is clearly the time when Christ comes to gather His saints.)

The word is clear but people always find a way to twist things.

Amen it definetely contradicts everything in the nt regarding his return honestly Paul’s words Jesus words peters words johns vision ect

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 13, 2024

Saul-to-Paul said:

I disagree.

[I placed some COLOR in your quote and enlarged the text I want to focus on, to point out something for this post]

The Greek word for the English phrase "though he were dead" is the word "apo thnḗskō [G599; from apo G575 and thnḗskō G2348]" meaning "to die off" (kind of like our English phrase "to pass away")... So this part is saying, "though he may pass away [/die off],..." (referring here to their physically / bodily dying);

... and the other part saying, "yet SHALL HE LIVE [G2198 - zaō ; FUTURE tense]" speaks to that which takes place after the person physically / bodily dies / passes away ... (some time later)... that is, "resurrection"... or "yet shall he live [G2198--same word used re: Jesus, after HE had bodily / physically died, in Rev2:8 [G2198 - zaō "[which was dead] and IS ALIVE" (i.e. "[bodily] resurrected")]).

Same thing in Acts 25:19b, where it says, "... and of one Jesus, which was dead [G2348 - thnḗskō ], whom Paul affirmed to be alive [G2198 - zaō ]."

All of that ^ pertains to His saying, "I AM the RESURRECTION"... (this part pertains to the "though he may 'die off / pass away'..." [yet SHALL HE LIVE [future tense, i.e. be bodily resurrected]);

... but He goes on to say also, "AND [I AM] the LIFE" (which pertains to the section stating, "AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?")

[note to the readers: the phrase "IN the last day" refers to "IN the last Millennium" (the 7th / 'last')... i.e. they'll be "resurrected" (to be present) FOR THE MK age]

DavyP · Oct 13, 2024

Since all the graves, both the righteous and unrighteous are resurrected on the day of Christ's future return, how then, do we properly interpret the Revelation 20:5 verse that the "dead" lived not again until the thousand years are over?

Poor, poor brethren that won't study your Bible; Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15 revealed to us that to have eternal Life in Jesus Christ when He returns, we must go through TWO types of changes...

1 Cor 15:51-54
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

Most want to claim Paul is pointing only to those in Christ with this, but he is pointing to all still alive on earth when Jesus comes being 'changed'. The difference is there's TWO different types of changes that must happen to have eternal life through Jesus Christ, and Paul covers that further below.

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Like Jesus showed in John 5:28-29, when Jesus comes, ALL... in the graves will come forth, either to the "resurrection of life", or unto the "resurrection of damnation" (the wicked dead).

53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Those above 4 words in red are 4 different words in the Greek with 4 different meanings. They mean to have eternal life in Christ, one's flesh corruptible body must be changed to the body of incorruption (a "spiritual body" Paul taught), AND... one's mortal soul must put on immortality. That's 2 changes, not just 1. The resurrected wicked will... put on the body of incorruption (spiritual body), but their SOUL will still be in a 'liable to perish' condition, i.e., still subject to the "second death"; and that's the meaning of "the dead" in Revelation 20:5 that live not again until the 1,000 years is over.

That means those "dead" of Rev.20:5 are those of the "resurrection of damnation" that are raised at Christ's coming. But their souls are still subject to the "second death" all throughout that 1,000 years, their being without Christ. SOME... of them WILL... convert to Faith on Jesus Christ DURING the 1,000 years, and those WILL be the implied SECOND RESURRECTION unto ETERNAL LIFE through Christ that happens at the time of God's GWT Judgement.

54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, "Death is swallowed up in victory."
KJV

Where did Paul quote that "Death is swallowed up in victory" from? From Isaiah 25 which points to God removing the veil off all nations and peoples (i.e., ending this present flesh world, with the world to come being one of spirit body manifesting, for the wicked also).

Those who keep thinking with their carnal, fleshy mind will not understand this.

Pilgrimshope · Oct 13, 2024

DavyP said:

each testament promised a resurrection the first eas promised to israels faithful in tbe ot this was seven hundred years before jesus came

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves, and shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is what happened after Jesus came in isreal to many saints who were dead and buried the first resurrection promised by the old testament saints when thier messiah would come

“and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:52-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The New Testament also promises a resurrection of the dead when the messiah returns a second time ( second resurrection )

All the dead are going to be raised up and judged some for salvation others for damnation

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;

they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life;

and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

airs bot telling us of two times they are raised but everyone’s raised and those who’ve done good live , those who’ve done evil are damned

same thing paul taught about judgement day

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“…. the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Same thing John saw about judgement day all the dead will be raised and some will live some will be cast into the lake of fire

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The first resurrection was for the generation of Christ it included the ot saints and Jesus followers who endured the tribulation when Rome slaughtered them and sacked Jerusalem destroying the temple

the last resurrection is for all humans and happens when Jesus returns from heaven

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 13, 2024

DavyP said:

This ^ is not speaking of a "[physically] DEAD" person/believer, but a "[physically] ALIVE" person/believer (MORTAL--STILL-ALIVE).

Same being spoken of in 2Cor5:4 (speaking of the time-slot when we [the 'we which are ALIVE and remain unto'] will "put on" our GLORIFIED BODIES ["CLOTHED-UPON"] without having to DIE first ['unclothed' in this text]).

Some believers, yes, WILL HAVE died prior to the time-slot being referenced... but I'm pointing out the part speaking of the "still-alive" ('mortal') ones, of us in each of these two passages / contexts (1Cor15 and 2Cor5).

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 13, 2024

DavyP said:

But "Christ's COMING" takes place in Rev19 (that is, His coming / "return" TO THE EARTH), not Rev20:11-15 (GWTj).

Wait. Are you saying that people (AFTER they physically DIE / are DEAD [when existing as "souls"]) will "convert to Faith on Jesus Christ" (while the 1000-yrs is occurring on earth)?!

[I encourage the readers to examine all passages speaking of "Son of man COMETH / COMING OF / SHALL COME / etc"... for starters...]

GaryA · Oct 13, 2024

DavyP said:

What makes you so sure that what John 5:28-29 is referring to occurs at the Second Coming of Christ? That is not what it actually says...

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 13, 2024

GaryA said:

I thought DavyP, in other past posts/threads, was saying (in his view) that Christ's "Second Coming" happens at the GWTj time-slot (AFTER the 1000 yrs). Oddly...

GaryA · Oct 13, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

Well, that is new information...

Perhaps he will clarify it for us.

Saul-to-Paul · Oct 13, 2024

DavyP said:

Resurrection only implies the biblical definition. Someone that was dead and is now alive.

DavyP said:

John 10:28
28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

Does it say there I will give? When is eternal life obtained?

DavyP said:

This speaking of the flesh when Christ returns. Go back to Jesus' interaction with Martha. Martha is speaking of the resurrection the bodies. And Jesus resurrection is speaking of someone becoming saved.

Saul-to-Paul · Oct 13, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

I disagree.

[I placed some COLOR in your quote and enlarged the text I want to focus on, to point out something for this post]

The Greek word for the English phrase "though he were dead" is the word "apo thnḗskō [G599; from apo G575 and thnḗskō G2348]" meaning "to die off" (kind of like our English phrase "to pass away")... So this part is saying, "though he may pass away [/die off],..." (referring here to their physically / bodily dying);

... and the other part saying, "yet SHALL HE LIVE [G2198 - zaō ; FUTURE tense]" speaks to that which takes place after the person physically / bodily dies / passes away ... (some time later)... that is, "resurrection"... or "yet shall he live [G2198--same word used re: Jesus, after HE had bodily / physically died, in Rev2:8 [G2198 - zaō "[which was dead] and IS ALIVE" (i.e. "[bodily] resurrected")]).

Same thing in Acts 25:19b, where it says, "... and of one Jesus, which was dead [G2348 - thnḗskō ], whom Paul affirmed to be alive [G2198 - zaō ]."

All of that ^ pertains to His saying, "I AM the RESURRECTION"... (this part pertains to the "though he may 'die off / pass away'..." [yet SHALL HE LIVE [future tense, i.e. be bodily resurrected]);

... but He goes on to say also, "AND [I AM] the LIFE" (which pertains to the section stating, "AND whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?")

[note to the readers: the phrase "IN the last day" refers to "IN the last Millennium" (the 7th / 'last')... i.e. they'll be "resurrected" (to be present) FOR THE MK age]

"
If Jesus was speaking about someone who has already died in Christ, it would say: "He that believed"

John 11:25
25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Men are "dead" in trespasses and sins before they believe in Christ.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 13, 2024

Saul-to-Paul said:

No, it is saying "he that BELIEVETH in Me [when he's alive], THOUGH HE DIE-OFF / PASS-AWAY [i.e. physically DIE], yet SHALL [future-tense] he LIVE [speaking of bodily-resurrection, in this context of "physical / bodily passing-away"]

I'm pointing out what the Greek word means... "[though he] PASS-AWAY / DIE-OFF [G599; from "apo G575" and "thnēskō G2348']" (the kjv English doesn't really convey the precise meaning, here).

"PASS-AWAY / DIE-OFF" means a physically-alive person becomes physically-dead. See the difference?

Saul-to-Paul · Oct 13, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

Doesn't change the facts:

"Were dead" is past tense.
"Believeth" is present tense.
"Shall" live is future tense.

It does not say He believes AND WHEN HE DIES HE SHALL LIVE. Jesus is saying "HE WAS DEAD ALREADY before he believed."

But you are ignoring the fact men are already dead.......................... in trespasses in sins.

TheDivineWatermark · Oct 13, 2024

Saul-to-Paul said:

I'm not seeing that:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/11/25/ss1/t_concif_1008025

Plus, I'm pointing out the definition: "die-off / pass-away [G599 - apo thnēskō ]"...

... and showing other contexts where the Greek word for "yet shall HE LIVE" is used to speak of bodily-resurrection (examples: Rev2:8 and Acts 25:19).

And pointing out that Jesus said (BOTH): "I AM the RESURRECTION" (verse 25b speaks to this aspect; [G386, from G450], which comes after a person has physically died)... and "AND [I AM] the LIFE" (v.26a speaks to this aspect--and says, "and whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" See the CONTRAST between these?)

Saul-to-Paul · Oct 13, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

I'm not seeing that:

https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/jhn/11/25/ss1/t_concif_1008025

Plus, I'm pointing out the definition: "die-off / pass-away [G599 - apo thnēskō ]"...

... and showing other contexts where the Greek word for "yet shall HE LIVE" is used to speak of bodily-resurrection (examples: Rev2:8 and Acts 25:19).

And pointing out that Jesus said (BOTH): "I AM the RESURRECTION" (verse 25b speaks to this aspect; [G386, from G450], which comes after a person has physically died)... and "AND [I AM] the LIFE" (v.26a speaks to this aspect--and says, "and whosoever LIVETH and believeth in Me SHALL NEVER DIE. Believest thou this?" See the CONTRAST between these?)

Are men dead before they become saved. Yes or no.

The rapture? The comimg of Christ.

Senior Member

Well-known member

Active member

Junior Member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Active member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage

Well-known member

Truth, Honesty, Love, Courage

Junior Member

Junior Member

Well-known member

Junior Member

Well-known member

Junior Member