The Gospels and the Mystery

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Nehemiah6 said:
When Christ was on earth, the Gospel of the Kingdom meant (1) the King is right here, so (2) believe on Him and be saved.
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Saved? Yes, but from what?

Luke 1:
67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David;
70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:
71 That we should be saved from our enemies, and from the hand of all that hate us;
72 To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant;
73 The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,
74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.
 
John146 said:
Kingdom of heaven + kingdom of God = 2 kingdoms, one physical and one spiritual.
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The physical always exists to make the spiritual known. Not 2 different things. One evidences the other. For example, God created the nation Israel, gave them a father, and entrance into the physical kingdom was through physical birth. But not all Israelites are of the Israel of God. Why? Because the Israel of God is also created by God, has God as Father, and entrance into the kingdom is through spiritual birth.
All the OT saints who were of the Israel of God were like Abraham...they were strangers and sojourners here and were looking for a city whose Maker and Builder is God.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
When Christ was on earth, the Gospel of the Kingdom meant (1) the King is right here, so (2) believe on Him and be saved. John the Baptist had already told all Israel to repent and be baptized by him. And God and Christ anticipated that Christ's blood would certainly be shed for the remission of sins, and that He would rise again after His crucifixion. So the Gospel was preached but without declaring the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. It could not be otherwise.

However, immediately after the resurrection and ascension of Christ, Peter preached the full Gospel on the day of Pentecost, and it continued to be preached in the same way. Then Paul summarized it is 1 Corinthians 15:1-3.

Regarding the mysteries revealed to Paul alone, they all pertain to the Church -- saved Jews and Gentiles in one Body, which is the Body of Christ (spiritually). And you already quoted the relevant passages. At the same time Paul declared in Acts that he had preached repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ at all times. That is the heart of the Gospel.

So evidently you are mistaken by suggesting that there are two Gospels. There is only ONE Gospel (but it has various designations in Scripture). That is why it is called "the eternal Gospel".
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Paul preached the totality of the Gospel as He received it from Christ, with the requirement for water baptism no longer valid for us today. To say that Paul only gave part of the Gospel is to accuse him of the grievous sin of omission, which is not at all something he would have perpetrated upon the Gentiles to whom he preached.

Please observe the different Gospels, just as we observe that the Law of Moses is no longer binding upon us. Peter's Gospel, when it was valid at that time, also required that they persevere unto the end, just as Jesus commanded in Matthew 24. The Kingdom Gospel is no longer binding upon us under the dispensation of grace. All works-based messages bring upon that teacher the accursing of which Paul warned.

MM
 
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Musicmaster said:
o say that Paul only gave part of the Gospel is to accuse him of the grievous sin of omission...
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Who said this? I said he SUMMARIZED the Gospel. But he also went into great detail about the Gospel in other epistles.

Here's another error:
Musicmaster said:
The Kingdom Gospel is no longer binding upon us under the dispensation of grace.
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Sez who? The COMPLETE Gospel includes the fact that Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore all those who believe on Him must receive him as both Lord and Savior.

Your basic premises are false, and but I will leave you to your own ideas.
 
Cameron143 said:
The physical always exists to make the spiritual known. Not 2 different things. One evidences the other. For example, God created the nation Israel, gave them a father, and entrance into the physical kingdom was through physical birth. But not all Israelites are of the Israel of God. Why? Because the Israel of God is also created by God, has God as Father, and entrance into the kingdom is through spiritual birth.
All the OT saints who were of the Israel of God were like Abraham...they were strangers and sojourners here and were looking for a city whose Maker and Builder is God.
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I agree in that when the physical kingdom of heaven comes to earth, those that are in God’s spiritual kingdom will be there. But not all those living in the physical kingdom are God’s spiritual people.

The Kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same. Simply put, the word heaven and the word God are not the same. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God is spirit, heaven is a created, physical place.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Who said this? I said he SUMMARIZED the Gospel. But he also went into great detail about the Gospel in other epistles.

Here's another error:
Sez who? The COMPLETE Gospel includes the fact that Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore all those who believe on Him must receive him as both Lord and Savior.

Your basic premises are false, and but I will leave you to your own ideas.
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Then you must believe that the end has already come, the end of the world. Paul clearly states that his gospel has gone out into all the world, been preached to every creature under heaven, and gone out to all nations. Yet, the end is not come. Hmmmm?

Mathew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
 
Nehemiah6 said:
Who said this? I said he SUMMARIZED the Gospel. But he also went into great detail about the Gospel in other epistles.

Here's another error:
Sez who? The COMPLETE Gospel includes the fact that Christ is King of kings and Lord of lords. Therefore all those who believe on Him must receive him as both Lord and Savior.

Your basic premises are false, and but I will leave you to your own ideas.
Click to expand...

Conversationally speaking:

The reason I stated what I did is because to say that Paul only "summarized" the Gospel, that implies that there are details left out. That's the nature of a summary. If you have a different definition for that term and its natural outflow, then I'm sure I speak for others here in that we would all like to hear it. This is interesting.

If Paul left other elements out that pertain to what is necessary for salvation, then that is indeed the sin of omission, which would be a grievous sin on his part. If you're saying that the full extent of items and actions necessary for salvation are spread across different epistles rather than for Paul to have spoken the totality of what is required for salvation, and the nature of salvation, then, again, you stand as his accuser.

So, let me ask you this: When speaking to the Corinthians, why would Paul not reiterate the fullness of the Gospel of Grace if it also included the necessity for water baptism and repentance, and/or any other "work" to seal in one's salvation? If he was only summarizing, then why did he not indicate that to them? That they were being theologically assaulted by Judaizers from Jerusalem and paganism from the culture, Paul would absolutely have spoken the entirety of what is required if there had been other elements, taking up only a few more words, or a couple of sentences in all that epistle, but he didn't.

As to your question about the Kingdom Gospel no longer being active under the Gospel of Grace, how can anything of personal effort be added to "unmerited favor?" How can anything be added to a gift? How does one earn what is imputed freely and without merit? I mean, there are many, many ways to phrase the question in showing the problem with anyone trying add to what can never be merited nor earned.

We EARN our paychecks on the basis of merit on our own part for doing the work negotiated for that check, usually by job description.

If someone hands a check to you as a gift, how would you ever be able to say that you earned it by way of anything on your part. If it's a gift, then it's unmerited. Anything you may do on your part to earn that gift would change the very nature of that gift into something else OTHER than a gift.

So, if you can do ANYTHING to earn your salvation, then why did Christ die on the cross, and then teach Paul that it is NOW a matter of grace through faith, with nothing else in the mix by way of your works, such as baptism, repentance and endurance to the end?

Are you not sealed right now by Holy Spirit into salvation? Are you now not born again? How could anyone ever earn what is given freely?

In other words, what part of "unmerited favor" do you not understand? I mean, we can discuss that further if you like, but I would like to understand your thought processes so that I'm at least not guessing.

What do you think you did on your own part to earn salvation under grace?

MM
 
John146 said:
I agree in that when the physical kingdom of heaven comes to earth, those that are in God’s spiritual kingdom will be there. But not all those living in the physical kingdom are God’s spiritual people.

The Kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God are not the same. Simply put, the word heaven and the word God are not the same. In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. God is spirit, heaven is a created, physical place.
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One can worship God in a physical kingdom if they also exist in a spiritual kingdom. One cannot worship God if they exist in a physical kingdom if they do not have access to the spiritual realm. They may bow low, pray, read scripture, and sing songs, but they will not have truly worshipped. They may have practiced the form of worship, but they didn't worship the Most High God. They merely have a form of godliness, void of any contact with God. Their emotions and affections may have been raised, but their worship is bankrupt of true spirituality.
If one never makes contact with God and engages with the God who is truly there, they are either much in sin or not actually in the kingdom of God.
 
John146 said:
Then you must believe that the end has already come, the end of the world. Paul clearly states that his gospel has gone out into all the world, been preached to every creature under heaven, and gone out to all nations. Yet, the end is not come. Hmmmm?

Mathew 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
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The end spoken of there was the end of the old covenant.
 
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Cameron143 said:
One can worship God in a physical kingdom if they also exist in a spiritual kingdom. One cannot worship God if they exist in a physical kingdom if they do not have access to the spiritual realm. They may bow low, pray, read scripture, and sing songs, but they will not have truly worshipped. They may have practiced the form of worship, but they didn't worship the Most High God. They merely have a form of godliness, void of any contact with God. Their emotions and affections may have been raised, but their worship is bankrupt of true spirituality.
If one never makes contact with God and engages with the God who is truly there, they are either much in sin or not actually in the kingdom of God.
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Well, the promised physical kingdom of the Jews has been put on hold while the Lord is building his spiritual kingdom through Gentiles.
 
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Cameron143 said:
The end spoken of there was the end of the old covenant.
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Context, context, context…

Matthew 24:
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
 
John146 said:
Well, the promised physical kingdom of the Jews has been put on hold while the Lord is building his spiritual kingdom through Gentiles.
Click to expand...
I've the discussion, but you have missed all that I've said.
Jesus died to usher in a new humanity that is universal. Ethnicity has no part in it; only the new creation.
 
I never did give this parable much thought as to its importance to the turning point whereby the Lord would begin the transition process from the Kingdom Gospel over into the Gospel of Grace.

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]:
9 And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.

What struck me further about this parable was in fitting it to events, like a glove, that followed a year or so later from when it was spoken by Jesus.

Some have poo-pooed this analysis, and yet they, to this day, have still not offered a better explanation. Disagreement upon absolutely no basis whatsoever is nothing more than the individual being irrationally obstinate for no good reason and no upon solid foundation.

So, one year after Christ's ascension, Stephen was stoned after saying:

Acts 7:51-58
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

That one year fits in with what the dresser of the orchard spoke to the owner. Christ cried out to Israel for three years, and they would not produce the fruit of acceptance and belief. The Father said to the Son to give them one more year. After that year, Israel was still in rebellion and rejection, and were "cut off."

I know of no other set of events that fit that parable like a glove. That parable also gave no hint to the princes and to Satan that the body of Christ was soon thereafter to become a reality, whereby Gentiles were to be brought into by way of grace...unmerited favor.

Unfortunately, many religions and denominations falsely claim that we still have to do works in order to complete our salvation, all in violation of this:

Romans 11:6 And if by grace, then [is it] no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if [it be] of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

That casts down all works, including that of water baptism, which is a work on our part. It's absolutely fine for people to choose baptism for a public show of an inner decision, but to teach that it's required for salvation, those people have destroyed and fallen from grace, because it cannot be both. This is an either - or proposition, never both. One will search in vain to find that Paul had been guilty of the sin of omission in 1 Corinthians 15:1-4. Faith in the crucifixion, the burial and resurrection is ALL that is required to be sealed by Holy Spirit and to become a new creation.

Fleshly pride is what says, "Well, I have added to the sufficiency of the Blood of Christ with my works of obedience," but that 'obedience' comes at the expense of adhering to a Gospel that is not longer capable of saving anyone at this time. The idea that they can merit grace on the basis of what is unmerited...that's just absolutely irrational and contrary to scripture.

Those who think that they can be saved by Jame's Gospel he preached to the twelve tribes scattered abroad (James 1:1), which was written years before Paul had received and began preaching the Gospel of Grace to bring it into existence in the place of the Kingdom Gospel (but only for a time), then they can try their best efforts to save themselves by works, but it will never suffice. To claim that water baptism and repentance and perseverance are required for grace to be fully realized, that's a doctrine of demons in addition to it being utterly counter-intuitive.

MM
 
Musicmaster said:
I never did give this parable much thought as to its importance to the turning point whereby the Lord would begin the transition process from the Kingdom Gospel over into the Gospel of Grace.

Luke 13:6-9
6 He spake also this parable; A certain [man] had a fig tree planted in his vineyard; and he came and sought fruit thereon, and found none.
7 Then said he unto the dresser of his vineyard, Behold, these three years I come seeking fruit on this fig tree, and find none: cut it down; why cumbereth it the ground?
8 And he answering said unto him, Lord, let it alone this year also, till I shall dig about it, and dung [it]:
9 And if it bear fruit, [well]: and if not, [then] after that thou shalt cut it down.

What struck me further about this parable was in fitting it to events, like a glove, that followed a year or so later from when it was spoken by Jesus.

Some have poo-pooed this analysis, and yet they, to this day, have still not offered a better explanation. Disagreement upon absolutely no basis whatsoever is nothing more than the individual being irrationally obstinate for no good reason and no upon solid foundation.

So, one year after Christ's ascension, Stephen was stoned after saying:

Acts 7:51-58
51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers [did], so [do] ye.
52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
53 Who have received the law by the disposition of angels, and have not kept [it].
54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.
55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
58 And cast [him] out of the city, and stoned [him]: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.

That one year fits in with what the dresser of the orchard spoke to the owner. Christ cried out to Israel for three years, and they would not produce the fruit of acceptance and belief. The Father said to the Son to give them one more year. After that year, Israel was still in rebellion and rejection, and were "cut off."

I know of no other set of events that fit that parable like a glove. That parable also gave no hint to the princes and to Satan that the body of Christ was soon thereafter to become a reality, whereby Gentiles were to be brought into by way of grace...unmerited favor.
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Wow! Good stuff. Thank you for this.
 
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John146 said:
So replacement theology. Got it.
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Nope. Continuation theology. When a covenant ends, there needs to be a way forward.
BTW...this was always the plan. Everything in the new covenant is found in the OT. Be glad to show it to you if like.
 
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Musicmaster said:
When we look at the Gospel as preached by the twelve, and the Gospel given to Paul to be preached to Gentiles and Jews alike, it becomes quite clear, apart from over-spiritualizing everything one reads, that the two messages are not one and the same:

The Kingdom Gospel preached by Christ and the twelve:

Proclaimed repentance and water baptism for salvation (Acts 2:38)
Proclaimed the gospel of the kingdom ([URL='Matthew 4:17, Acts 3.19)
Saved and commissioned within Israel’s borders (Matthew 16:13, 16-17)
Taught in Christ’s earthly ministry
Ministered to Jews only (Matthew 10:5, Galatians 2:7-9)

The Gospel of Grace received and taught by Paul:

Proclaimed “believe” alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6, 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)
Proclaimed the gospel of the grace of God (Acts 20:24)
Saved and commissioned outside Israel’s borders (Acts 9:3)
Was taught in Christ’s heavenly ministry (Galatians 1:1, 11-12)
Ministered primarily to Gentiles because of Jewish rejection (Romans 11:13, Galatians 2:7-9)

Paul was not taught by the twelve:

1 Thessalonians 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received [it] not [as] the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.

So, Paul was instructed by Christ Jesus, not other men in the mystery, which is the body of Christ, that was hidden in God, not the scriptures or the prophets:

1 Corinthians 2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

Ephesians 3:2-7
2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.

Not given to the twelve, but only to Paul, who then preached it to all others from that point onward. Paul already knew that the eleven were preaching, but THAT is the reason he persecuted them, and killed them. If Paul was only preaching what the others had already been preaching, then all the scriptures stating otherwise make no sense.

1 Corinthians 2:7-9
7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known [it], they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

See that? Not even Satan and his demons knew of the Gospel of Grace that would be extended to the Gentiles until after it was revealed to, and preached by Paul. They would not have pushed for the crucifixion of Christ had they known that the kingdom of the Gentiles would be greatly diminished from their clutches through Paul's Gospel. They knew of the Kingdom Gospel, but they did NOT know of the Gospel of Grace and its impact until after it was too late.

Thoughts?

MM
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It is the same gospel at two different stages of salvation history and from two different viewpoints. Different emphases produce different approaches. You throw too much at your fellow forum participants. Take one or two contrasts and their passages for discussion. I can't deal with all that you have said.
 
John146 said:
Context, context, context…

Matthew 24:
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Click to expand...
The word there is aiōn that is end of the AGE, not world. This is the perfect example of where King James Onlyism bites you in the backside. The translation of this word to "World" is a HUGE reason the pre-trib rapture gained so much footing. And it you take this version and lift it so high that it leaves you no room to accept the truth. This was the END of the Mosaic age, the age of the temple and animal sacrifice. You can never except this truth because you're too deep in the KJV only deception to look at the whole thing in truth. Perfect example of the danger of KJV only doctrine.
 
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