The book of Job, my favorite book.

How did you come to this conclusion? Where does it say this in the text? It appears you are changing the entire premise of the story with your assessment. The wager that kicks off Job's suffering is satan claiming that Job would curse God if Job loses everything. Satan believes Job's *relationship* with God is purely transactional and will only continue if Job receives his benefits. But after losing everything, Job does not curse God.

Satan was wrong, and God proved that by allowing Job to suffer. Job struggles, of course (who wouldn't?), but the ultimate battle here is between satan and God.

In chapters 1&2, it is written that "In all this, Job did not sin in what he said," with " in regard to losing his children and possessions in chapter 1 and losing his health in chapter 2, with his statement, "Should we accept from God only good and not adversity?" with "or charge God with wrongdoing (in Chapter 1) after stating, "The LORD gave and the LORD God has taken away, Blessed be the name of the LORD"

If Job found himself in despair, not that we all haven't found ourselves there but, how did his faith remain unwavered?

In Chapter 13, Job says, "though He slay me, yet I will hope in Him* (Job 13:15). I will still defend my ways to His face." *footnote: or I have no other hope. In the context, although it is oft asserted that Job is claiming unwavering faith, it seems to me that Job is rather saying that, though it might displease God and He slay me...my situation is hopeless unless I successfully defend myself in His court.

So, if Job attributed his suffering to be from God, then do you think that he rightly attributed the cause of his suffering? In scripture addressing the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, attributing miracles to Satan was the qualifying crime. Wouldn't be attributing works of Satan to God then be the other side of that coin?

You've made comparison of Job to Jesus, yet I see a distinct difference in them. Jesus trusted God in all of his suffering, even with no support from any of his 'friends'... "could you not watch one hour?" and "if it is possible, take this cup from me. But nevertheless, not my will..." as much as his enemies, "forgive them Father..." whereas Job, even though he prayed for them afterward, was quite annoyed by his friends throughout his ordeal. Jesus did not sin in all that he said, throughout the entirety of his life, as He is indeed perfect but, although not to take away that Job was "blameless and upright," I'm not comfortable applying that truth of perfection to any other than Jesus.

I do see the parallels between Job and Christ. But I never see suffering as innocent, but necessary. For Jesus, suffering was necessary to qualify as the servant of God and Savior of mankind. For men, suffering is necessary for perfection and a greater knowledge and experience of God. So while the book of Job has much to say about suffering, ultimately God does not explain Himself to Job. God is sovereign.
But more than this, God is good. Thus, anything that befalls God's people is either intended for good or works for their good. Such is the testimony of scripture throughout. From the statement of Joseph concerning his plight to the words of the Apostle in Romans 8, we find the commendation of suffering. In fact, James tells us to count it all joy.
While Job began with such an approach, his later behavior showed a preference for vindication rather than a zeal for God's glory. It's not that I don't believe Job performed well under increasing duress. I find his behavior remarkable. I have crumbled under far lesser duress. But I do see his focus slowly change as time wanes on. Far from full throated worship...1:21...and immovable faith...13:15, Job becomes more concerned with himself and his vindication, than focusing on the glory of God.
God is brilliant in both His vindication of Job and His rebuke of Job. It is said of God that He is the only One who can both humble a man without harming him, and exalt a man without flattering him. I think this a very apt description of what transpires with Job.

The beast and the dragon.

I am amazed that Job exalted himself above God, and yet no one seems to care. That is what the dragon did.

Job's faith was tested, of course, but what do you mean by "unwavered" exactly? He struggles trying to figure out why all of this is happening to him, but are you equating that with unbelief? Can you please clarify?

Regarding the cause of his suffering, did you notice this verse at the end of the story? In Job 42:11 it says, "Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him..." How do you factor in this verse regarding Job's suffering?

No, Job is not Jesus. However, the parallels are striking. There are many people *like* Jesus in the Old Testament, but they are only types and shadows of Him. Have you read in John 5:39 where Jesus mentions that the Scriptures (OT) testify to Him? And in Luke 24:27 it says, "And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." Do you see how Job's story is a way to point people to Jesus, the suffering servant?

Nope - there was no "Wager". God used satan as His "tool" to educate Job primarily in the two areas mentioned, and bring him to repentance, as recorded in Job 42:6.

There is plainly two tests, Job failed the second test when he did not bless God.




Job had two tests. Whenever you take a test, you get scored on that test. In the reading of the first and second chapters of Job we are caught up with the anguish and torment of Job, and in the process we are blinded to the actual results of the two tests.



The first thing that should come to your observation is the process of the presentation of these two tests. They are virtually word for word in the presentation between the first test, and the second test. What would one obvious reason be for the two presentations being almost identical? One obvious reason would be that we might take note of that which is different between the two tests.




The following will be a comparison of the presentations of the two tests with the differences highlighted in blue.
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First Test Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Second Test Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them, to present himself before the Lord.

In the first test Satan appears to have been a casual observer, while in the second test you might assume Satan was commanded to be there.
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First Test Job 1:7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Second Test Job 2:2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

They are identical.
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First Test Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Second Test Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The difference is the first test has already taken place, and Job has passed. Two other things should be noted here. 1. That God did the moving, or is responsible for Job’s tribulation. 2. That Satan’s cause was unjust, Job passed. It does not mention God’s cause for allowing the test.
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First Test Job 1:9-10 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house and about all that he hath on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hand, and his substance is increased in the land.

Second Test Job 2:4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

The difference is that the first test has taken place. The new test does not involve possessions, but Job himself.
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First Test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Second Test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

The difference here is that Satan gives his new reason why Job will fail.
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First Test Job 1:12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Second Test Job 2:6-7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; but save his life. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord,--.

God’s presentation of the two tests is unique in that every word that could be duplicated was, from one test compared to the other test. It is the results of the two tests that will be presented next, and the obvious differences stand out.


First Test Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, and said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Second Test Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes. (Notice that Job does not bless God. This was what Satan had said, that Job would "not bless" [lo-barak] God to his face.)

After the first test Job prostrated himself before God and worshipped God. Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, and then blessed the name of the Lord.

After the second test Job sat down and said nothing. The worshipping and blessing of God is missing. When Job finally said something it was in reply to his wife’s question, in which Job replied with a question, “shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Notice after the first test Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, but after the second test we hear Job cursing the day he came out of his mother’s womb. (Job 3:1,10-12)
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First Test Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Second Test Job 2:10 ---In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Herein lays the key to the two tests. Job is completely exonerated in the first test. Notice that Job did not sin in any manner. Examine that which is added, “nor charged God foolishly”. Job charged God foolishly time and time again after the second test, but after the first test Job did not charge God foolishly.
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After the second test it is recorded that Job did not sin with his lips, but what about his heart?

I agree, not understanding something is not the same as unbelief, especially when you are seeking the truth. In the book of Isaiah God says, "Come now, and let us reason together".

Where does Job exalt himself above God? Yes, Elihu accuses Job of that, but where does Job actually say that? Also, if you reread chapter 9 you will find that Job says things to the contrary. All of chapter 9 is Job's acknowledgement of his place compared to God's and Job is full of praise to God here.

Here is just a portion in 9:14,15, "How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him? Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge."

Throughout the whole story Job consistently refers to God as his judge. That is a posture of submission. What I see repeatedly is that people base their opinion of Job on Elihu's words, which I find extraordinarily dangerous.

Where does it say that God's grand design was to use satan as His tool? I understand that is your interpretation, but where does it say that?

My apologies, I didn't mean to dismiss your request. I just didn't want to give it anything less than my undivided attention or a hurried response.

Faith is the substance of things not seen, and all Job could see was his suffering. Even if it was only for that moment, Job did not trust that it would all work out for good.

After rebuking his friends, the Lord blesses Job and all these come near again in sympathy for the grief that he endured, "all the evil that the lord had brought upon him" can be understood as adversity brought near, and that compels me to consider the contrast of The Comforter given which comes near. However, if this particular point is meant to assert that it is the Lord that actually caused the suffering, because he permitted it to come so near, I hesitate to entirely agree with that. An indirect cause, perhaps yes, but God is certainly not the direct cause of that instance. God kept a hedge, albeit an extremely fine one, around Job in saying, "you can touch anything, but you may not touch his life."

In Jesus' case, even that fine hedge protecting His life was removed from Him, and He was indeed perfect so, God's grace is shown even by him. Considering the two, and even though we're inclined to sympathize with him, can anyone rightly conclude that Job actually suffered "unjustly"?

When Job declared his righteous greater than God's.

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?

Job 32:1 So these three men ceased to answer Job, because he was righteous in his own eyes.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.

Job 29:24 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down.


Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.

Job 34:5 For Job hath said, I am righteous: and God hath taken away my judgment.

Job 34:9 For he hath said, It profiteth a man nothing that he should delight himself with God.

Job 34:17 Shall even he that hateth right govern? and wilt thou condemn him that is most just?

Job 34:18 Is it fit to say to a king, Thou art wicked? and to princes, Ye are ungodly?

Job 34:36 My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.

Job 34:37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

Job 36:2 Suffer me a little, and I will shew thee that I have yet to speak on God's behalf.

Job 36:3 I will fetch my knowledge from afar, and will ascribe righteousness to my Maker.

Job 36:4 For truly my words shall not be false: he that is perfect in knowledge is with thee.

Sorry, I disagree with this assessment entirely. In 40:2 God is asking Job a question, not accusing Job, and Job's answer to God's question is no. In 40:8 it is the same thing. Again, chapter 9 clearly lays out Job's posture and his view of himself in the sight of God. It is plain as day.

Job 4:17 is a response from Eliphaz. This is Eliphaz speaking - the one who is rebuked in the end by God for not speaking rightly about Him (God).

As for Job's comments, he knows he has not sinned, so why would he say he did sin? He is holding onto the truth that he is not suffering because of something he has done wrong. Again, this is clearly laid out in the text in chapters 1 & 2. Also, Job is not declaring these things for no reason. The reason Job is adamantly stating these things is because his friends are fervently trying to insinuate that Job HAS done something wrong. Context. He is not just bragging, he is trying to fight against the misunderstanding of his friends. Again, as we know, the friends were wrong.

As for Elihu, that is a whole new topic that has yet to be fully explored here. I would love to discuss his role in this story more. I know many people love Elihu almost as much as they (seem) to hate Job. My take is quite the opposite on both.

Thank you again for the dialogue. I really appreciate how specific you are and grounded in the text.

Also, look at 2:3, "And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause."

Sorry, your conclusion is in blatant opposition to the text.

You are absolutely right on all points. Elihu's wrath was kindled against Job for no reason. Here is a holier-than-thou person pretending that he is more righteous than Job.

I am surprised that God did not include him with the other three and say that they all had spoken wrongly about God. Perhaps because Elihu was not one of his friends. They all had assumed what is a commonly held view. That the righteous will never suffer but the unrighteous will. As we know today, the unrighteous flourish while on earth while the righteous suffer.

Job would not deny his integrity. And if he contended with the Almighty, it was because he could not understand why God utterly destroyed him and his family through Satan. Of course, Job did not factor Satan into the equation, since he did not know what had been going on behind the scenes. And the Lord's Prayer petitions God to not lead us into temptation (testing) but deliver us from evil (and the Evil One).

1Co 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong.

Eliphaz also quoted the first two beatitudes in an inverted form.

Mat 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Mat 5:4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.

Job 5:11 To set up on high those that be low; that those which mourn may be exalted to safety.

So what? God did not approve of him. Those three "friends" should have simply put their arms around Job individually and comforted him as long as possible. Everyone knew Job's life. Instead they sat with him for a while and then began to tell him that he must have sinned because of all those calamities.

Excellent. Thank you. First off, I totally agree with you and believe Elihu is not a friend of Job. Elihu is there from the beginning of their dialogue, but the text says that it is Job's "three" friends (not four) that come to him. Also, Elihu himself makes a clear distinction in 35:4 where he says, "I will answer thee, and thy companions with thee." He seems to be making a clear distinction between himself, Job and Job's friends (not his friends). Some lump Elihu in as one of the friends, but it's simply not what it says.

On top of that, you are exactly right. Elihu is "burning with anger" as it says. The lovers of Elihu seem to gloss over this glaring fact. Elihu is supposed to be offering wise counsel and guidance to Job? Really? While he is burning with anger? Who wants to be counseled by someone who is burning with anger against them? Anyone? (I have raised this question before and gotten no response.)

Also, it says Elihu is burning with anger against Job's three friends. God Himself is also burning with anger against Job's three friends. However, if you notice, God is angry at the Job's three friends for a completely different reason. Very interesting. Additionally, Elihu is burning with anger against Job, but it never says that God is burning with anger against Job.

This does not change the conclusion of the story when God clearly states that Eliphaz and friends have not spoken rightly about God. You might even say, they spoke without any substance, any real connection to their words.

Consider Isaiah 29:13 in light of Eliphaz, "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

So what if Eliphaz said what was "right"? In the end, he was wrong. That was God's conclusion. Also, satan is recorded as quoting Scripture, too, so...