Needing Advice On How Much Free Labour to Give A Pastor.

Wow, it's been years since I've been on this site... and I don't know which forum is best for advice.

My situation is this: my husband is a plumbing teacher at a vocational school (we call them TAFE in Australia). He is a qualified plumber and previously served in the military where he sustained injuries to his back and neck.

One of his Defence friends introduced us to the church where we are now. I'm just going to call him "John". They were both Plumbers in the Air Force but my husband had more experience and qualifications. The pastor at our church asked John to help do the plumbing in his shed that he was converting to a single bedroom granny flat. The pastor explained that he wanted to create a space on his property for guest speakers to stay. John then asked my husband to help him out, which my husband agreed to. The pastor then stated he wanted the city council to approve the work to add value to his house. My husband agreed that John would do most of the work, he would just supervise or check over the work that was done.

Anyway, my husband left defence and John continued to either go away for small training deployments or made excuses not to help out with this massive plumbing job. My husband continued to do most of the plumbing work, but I don't believe the pastor and my husband actually sat down and had a proper conversation about payment for labour.

As my husband went over there during the weekend, the pastor would explain that he wasn't doing so well financially, although they took out a loan to go on a trip to Ireland for their 20th wedding anniversary. My husband has been working on the granny flat for months and has probably done the equivalent of 4 weeks worth of labour and it is still not finished yet.

The labour costs and materials required for this job would probably be worth close to $20,000 and the pastor has barely paid my husband back for the costs of materials alone. I keep telling my husband to sit down with out pastor and have an honest discussion, but he's just really discouraged by this whole thing and is hoping the pastor is going to come to his senses.

As a wife, I'm frustrated and want to jump in and make them have the hard conversation, but I'm just wondering, do pastors usually just expect this kind of labour of love? I'd understand if it was for the church building, but this is something that adds value to his personal property.

What are your thoughts?

Without hearing all sides of the story...

I have no idea. But I know that my pastor would never ask that of me.

With the limited info it is hard to know, but the pastor should have offered to pay the going rate for the services since it is for his property v.s. church property. Even for church property there should be appropriate compensation for the work unless it is understood from the onset that the labor is to be voluntary.

Again, the info is limited, but it appears to me that your husband is being used and abused by someone taking advantage of their office.

It really seems to me that the biggest mistake was not working out all the details before doing a single thing. Of course it's too late to change that but he can still learn from it. Being a pastor should not make someone an exception to this.

I find it silly to think the pastor may come around. Why should he? Your husband is proceeding as if nothing is wrong. And if no agreement on payment was settled ahead of time the pastor doesn't know what's expected of him financially and likely going by the Professional doing the work. And since the professional isn't saying or doing anything to indicate a problem then the pastor must think the situation is acceptable as is.
Also it is possible the pastor is expecting free or hugely discounted work from a church member. And if that's the case that makes the pastor way more in error.
But let's say the pastor isn't doing this purposefully. When the work is done, what's to stop him from telling other people or pastors about this and those people come expecting the same deal? He's already demonstrated a willingness and seeming ability to do so. The precedent is set.
No matter how you look at it it's more than likely not going to end well if something isn't done ASAP.
I don't know that going behind his back to force him to discuss it with the pastor is a smart move. That could break trust, and as a man, just not sit well overall.

I must note that Paul refused to take payment for any of his sermons. At one point he even took on the work of a tanner, the worst and most disrespected labor of his time, to support himself during his mission.

Your husband was deceived by this "Pastor". His heart was in the right place pace, praise God; but your husband has been abused. Working for the good of the congregation is a different matter entirely.

You and your husband should run away from this "church" as fast as you can.

Did your husband have to put out for the materials? Sounds to me like a communication failure from the outset. I agree he should have this conversation now though; better late than never. I don't know what pastors "usually" do; however, he should have discussed the terms with your husband to start with. If he was expecting a labor of love, he should've told your husband that up front.

Is this situation hurting you financially? Is your husband spending more time with this project than with his own family? If so, he probably needs to get the situation resolved sooner than later.

It sounds as if your husband is being used. I've known or heard first-hand accounts about several pastors who have been a little naive in their expectations of others. I don't know if this was deliberate - probably more a matter of not living in the real world and thinking everyone has the same sort of lifestyle and time available, which I believe (paid) pastors often have more of.

In my opinion, first, your husband needs to decide whether this is a labour of love for God (and if he's going to keep going and finish the work no matter what it takes). Or if the answer is no, map out an exit strategy for how much more he can commit to, and have the conversation with the pastor to say "this far, but no further". Note with the latter, if the pastor finishes it off, he may take all the credit for the work your husband did. If it helps your husband to confront the pastor about the issue, perhaps he can use you as a reason - wife complaining he's too often away from home, without drawing any income.

I believe its good to help God's work, but sadly with churches, too often its a fraction of the church population pulling all of the weight. In such cases, Christians should decide what they will commit to God and offer as a service to Him, being well aware of the lack of support and gratitude likely from other church members. Or else have someone external quote on the work, and have everyone contribute financially toward the completion (and/or pay a church member the same rate for completing, although this too can cause conflict if the work quality provided by the church member is poor).

Yes, agree, forgive, forget, and move on. If he is deceitful about this, then is he also deceitful about "teaching" God's Holy Words!?

Amen.

We sure are extrapolating freely from limited data here. Now we are assuming he doesn't even preach right?

He is placing his personal benefit above that of his followers, he cannot possibly be preaching truth.

I've been in these sorts of situations.

The materials situation is the issue here.

Construction guys like to see the job put in to completion and on normal jobs that's exactly what happens.

And this ain't that.

You install the materials provided AND PAID FOR. That's the stopping point. You DO NOT GO FARTHER.

The labor bill alone is high high high. And it's a complete disrespect and disregard for the professional level skills people bring to the table. On most construction/remodel jobs, labor is at least half the budget. Now where the Pastor knew he didn't have the money....he completely discounted the materials and labor costs especially.

"Time availability" means that if 4 hours are spent acquiring materials....you only have 4 hours to work in an 8 hour day.

Generally speaking,
Because construction costs are almost split between materials and labor. Most contractors use a line of credit to operate with.
The Church needs its own line of credit at the supply house instead of using yours. Your husband is a plumber and not a lending institution or bank. He also is not a supply house.
And he should have been up front with all of this because the "house" is not the Church's but instead the Pastor's....growing his personal property's value. And things change over the years. Often unintentionally but with the same results as if imbezzling was the intended goal.
Church organizations ARE the NUMBER ONE target of imbezzlement in the world. And pastors are about half of those guilty of stealing from churches.
Even going so far as to set their own churches on fire to cover up their theft.

And also....have your husband mention that the pastor needs to not go after donated materials as often they will be incompatible with the work done up to this point.

I recognize your avatar pic! You mentioned in another thread about an image being to large to post.
If you go to postimages.org you can resize when uploading. 640 pixels is often quite large enough, and
then you select the second line of code given for the direct link to post with the proper HTML of course...

Welcome back!!!

I agree that communication is the key to long term fellowship. I've been burned many times by "friends", family and in ministry by those who knew better but had decided to sin and take the low road instead.

First I would be amiss if I did not bring up Paul's exhortation to the church at Corinth. Ch. 9

6Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? 7Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock? 8Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? 9For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen? 10Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. 11If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things? 12If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.

I know what it's like to labor a long hard time for others and receive not so much as thanks. While they take vacations and enjoy many luxuries, I eat beans and rice from Dollar General Store. This is as a man trying to lead people to Christ and serve the Lord in ministry to those who brag about how much money they make. This is while serving widows and the poor. I expect nothing from the poor or informed, however those with much usually offer little or nothing. This is the nature of many in my area, with exceptions. Some do give and it touches my heart more than I can express. Someone anonymous gave me $30 in groceries and has shown much kindness and prayers. 🥹. This helped me buy food so I can recover health and get a paying job outside of ministry.
I no longer serve those with money here locally as the poor are more receptive to the gospel and that is my focus .

That said, I do not see any problem with others volunteering for ministers. Many hands make light work. My former church used many volunteers to build the pastor's house. BTW, that was not mine as evangelist.
The church was the contractor. I think there were two paid members who worked full time, a carpenter and a brick layer. Upon completion it was the pastor's homestead/ parsonage until he left for other ministry outside of the church. The new church hired another pastor who moved in and the loan was paid off ASAP. I'm describing what worked for an Independent Baptist church that was autonomous with no denominational funding. It worked for us. YMMV.

I would consider the original agreement and make consideration as to any necessary changes. Since collection is necessary, I think your man should talk with pen and paper and write new terms for completion if old terms were violated and cannot be met. The original terms should, but not all information is available from the start. A few dozen videos on how contractors determine estimates and bills( 2 different things) are available on YouTube. I'm not expert on that.
He should be honest and forthright, tempered with kindness as he discussed the situation as emotions of frustration can be counterproductive. . The pastor may need to forgot his vacation or save until payment for materials, etc. is paid off. Then work can resume.

I can only learn from my own mistakes and regrets. Then I hope you both will benefit if there's something you both may glean from my many experiences.

A pastor is worthy of compensation for his spiritual labor which benefits the lives of the congregation. Likewise, your husband doesn't want to take up the slack of the rest of the church. There should be an amicable agreement.
Then it needs written down before impartial witnesses within the church. At least that's my thoughts on the general concept.

Yikes! Sounds like a (un)Christian school I worked at for a bit. They claimed they couldn't afford to pay the teachers properly, constantly guilted us into volunteering our time when we weren't making minimum wage as it was, then they told all the parents they were going to have a big trip to China and that the parents should come up with money to send their kids. Doing the calculations in my head, the amount they were asking the families to raise would have been enough to make a dent in the teacher's pay. Clearly they had not run things by God though because I highly doubt that their trip to China, set for the spring of 2020, actually happened.

First off, your husband should not do anything he can't be a cheerful giver at. Second, these aren't your husband's problems to have to solve. Third, one thing I learned from observing the situation at that school is that when you are working with an alleged Christian, it is on them to seek God for the funding rather than expecting freebies from you that you don't really want to give. Anything else is a lack of faith in God on their part and subsequent abuse of your good will, and if you give them what they are asking for you can actually end up feeding moral corruption and blocking God's lessons for them. This would also be what is called 'rescuing' in the 'rescue triangle,' a psychological concept of relational dysfunctions which God has spent a lot of time focusing on in my church as one of Satan's tools. A big red flag is feeling driven by guilt. I highly encourage you and your husband, and really anybody and everybody, to read up on it because it is a big problem in our society.

My heart goes out to Christian school teachers. Independent churches don't pay what they deserve. I remember being asked to work all day at a Baptist Church in Wheeling. The pastor showed me the million plus dollar building addition with the gymnasium/ basketball court, etc.
I saw the little "tool sheds" outside the church building. They were living accomodations for the teachers so they didn't need to pay them much....well under minimum wage and poverty line. While I had one lunch break with the pastor and his assistant, they asked me to teach all grades science classes. I kindly declined and let them know that I was a full time evangelist that had a hard time keeping up with the wildlife I used in ministry and wildlife education. That was my calling.
They got offended and cancelled the lunch order, walked out of the restaurant all mad and gave me enough to put some gas in my tank after working the rest of the day.
Then I realized that the teacher I knew depended entirely on her husband financially and eventually that's pretty much how many schools do things. You teachers have my respect, which is more than that pastor earned.

Thank you for sharing and please understand my anger on your behalf. I would like to give you a 'friendly' vote too, BTW. I'm sad to hear that my abusive experience wasn't unusual. As someone else noted, God tells us that the worker is worth their wages, and that is a verse that God has had occasion to remind me of. Believe it or not it has been a hard lesson for me to accept because so much of my life experience has ranged from volunteering, to being underpaid, to being fired unjustly. Just today I was struggling with some of the fallout of having had the world tell me over and over that I'm cheap or worthless by such behaviors. Even now, I'm sure I don't make minimum wage for all the preparations I put into my ballet class for the YMCA, but unlike with that aforementioned school, it is so far a positive environment that allows my desire to determine how much I give rather than manipulation. I am fighting to believe the truth of God's value system, and any true Christian should logically want to help those of us struggling to believe by reinforcing the truth, not tearing us down like the world by trying to squeeze even more freebies out of us.

People tend to have no problem with a generous tip to a waitress, which I have no problem with. Then after spending over $20 on one meal they don't consider that you put in incredibly difficult, highly skilled work to impart to their children, your students.
If they give to a short temporary unskilled service that's compensated by their employer, then aren't you worthy of more for the hours of sweat and time of preparation outside class, to bless them than perhaps 10 minutes or so of actual unskilled labor a waiter may provide?

We teachers provide skills that may last benefit others for a lifetime if they value and use them. The over ten thousand hours of intensive and often very painful training is worthy of respect if I must say so myself.

To be compensated for it fairly is a challenge when rent and utilities for the large floor space is beyond outrages.

You say that you work at the YMCA!
My school began in a YMCA that was located in the bottom 2 floors of an historical landmark next to a refurbished 100+ year old theater and a bank. We eventually moved to Main street and after many years ended up going back to that YMCA location that was closed. That's pretty neat. It's a small world.

Thank you for all your input and suggestions.

Firstly, I never intended to approach the pastor myself. I was leaning towards meeting up with him, his wife, my husband and I to hopefully get to some sort of understanding or agreement about it all.

I've received more information from my husband as I have probed him.

Apparently, at the very beginning, my husband did bring up payment per hour for labour. The usual hourly rate for plumbers is $110 per hour, but my husband offered $50 per hour. The pastor said 'Yikes, that's too high.' My husband came down to$20 per hour, the pastor said he would just get the other plumber to do it.

The other plumber didn't come to help and because each stage needs to be approved by the city council and my husband signed the contract to be in charge of it, my husband has had to keep working this big job. After this, my husband quoted the materials for the next stage which was water proofing which came to $600 and the pastor continued to emphasise how financially hard they were doing. My husband caved and said he will just cover the costs of the materials.

The following stage, my husband put in more water pipes in May, the pastor paid $220 of materials because my husband said back then that he wouldn't do any future work until it was paid for. He put in another $300 worth of materials in may that only got paid for recently this month.

Then they went to Ireland for their wedding anniversary.

They didn't want to pay for a tiler, so they roped my husband into doing the tiles.

To this point, my husband hasn't been paid anything for labour.

I think as I'm getting more answer from my husband and typing this... the more ridiculous this situation sounds.

My husband also said to the pastor that at tax time, it would look bad if it states he did a job but earned minimal income and it could be brought into question whether he wasn't being truthful about his profit and avoiding paying tax. The pastor said he didn't know that and brushed it off.