Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord

Hi @Omegatime

Absolutely! In fact, I see this as a warning only to those who are enjoined with the christian faith. Jesus explains that the people he is referencing are doing some rather great deeds in his name. Now, as far as I understand, there is no one living upon the earth today, nor has ever been, that lives that kind of life that isn't understood by men living upon the earth with them, as christians, or believers.

Have you ever heard an atheist doing great miracles in Jesus' name? A muslim? Hindi? Any other religious or non-religious group? No, I'm confident that this warning was to those of us who walk around on the earth portraying ourselves as christians, but, as Jesus said, don't really know him. They don't really have a right relationship with Jesus.

Oh, they go to worship services and some may likely be very faithful week after week in going to such services. They might be doing great deeds like feeding the homeless and providing for orphans and widows with a religious group, but the person themself has no true relationship with Jesus.

This warning is all for christians and christians only.

It's not unusual for people who come out of prison to return. One of the predominant reasons is they have gotten so used to people making decisions for them that they struggle to live being able to make decisions for themselves.
The same is true for those who come out of the bondage of sin. They want rules in place to order their life. The law does this for them. They don't know how to live in freedom. We find this with the 1st generation of Israel who came out of bondage in the wilderness.
Those who are actually saved will eventually learn to live in the freedom Christ supplies. The others will become Pharisees of the Pharisees.

There really is no Faith in God part from Obedience to God.

NKJ Titus 1:15-16 To the pure all things are pure, but to those who are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work.

They profess to know God but they are defiled and unbelieving - they deny Him in works = Unbelieving/disobedient. God says they are disgusting. Go away from Me, I never knew you.

But for some discussion about what he said about law/commandments, where is he saying he's working his way to heaven?

If you are trying to follow the Law, and think following it is what saves you, as his explanation of " I never knew you" implies, you are working your way to heaven.

“If you are trying to follow the Law”

“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“until John”

“Now after that John was put in prison,


Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of allthat word, I say, ye know, which was published throughout all Judæa, and began from Galilee, after the baptism which John preached;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-37‬ ‭

There’s a neee to seperate the law of Moses

from the gospel of the kingdom

“For the law was given by Moses,( ot )

but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”( the everlasting gospel )
‭‭John‬ ‭1:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The ot law of Moses

“Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭3:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the gospel of the kingdom the nt that saves souls

“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth. No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14, 18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Believing the gospel saves the gospel teaches people to repent and obey the lord

“And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:30-31‬ ‭

I don’t think anyone can say that these people did not BELIEVE in Jesus. They are believers, but they are lost. This should show you that FAITH ALONE does not save you. If all you have to do is believe, then these people should have been saved. Anybody that can “prophesy in Christ’s name, and perform miracles and do many mighty works—how can you say they did not TRUST Jesus? Of course they trusted Jesus and of course they believed in Him. They thought they were saved! This is proof that faith and trust, while they are necessary, are not enough by themselves. This fact harmonizes with other scriptures like James 2:24, Romans 6, I Peter 3:21, etc. God is telling us—and warning us—in His word that obedience to His laws, obedience to His commands, and abiding in HIS DOCTRINE matters. 2John 9, and 1 Cor. 7:19. Satan is the one teaching the opposite of that, saying, you don’t have to do anything! Just trust; or just believe. Satan preaches a “do nothing” religion because he knows that appeals to man.
Yes, you are right about one thing. These people were never saved—but they were sure that they were in their own mind. Just like many, many believers, worshipping in churches today; they believe so they think they are saved. I am afraid They will be among those in Matthew 7.

Jesus uses the Aramaic that was translated into the Greek word (ἐργαζόμενοι (ergazomenoi)) that means [To work, trade, perform, do, practice, commit, acquire by labor] connected to the Greek word (ἀνομίαν (anomian)) that means [Lawlessness, iniquity, disobedience, sin. From anomos; illegality, i.e. Violation of law or wickedness].

Ultimately, Jesus is saying, they made a job out of doing wickedness.... [They could be the same as those who teach false doctrines which lead people away from the truth]

So they knew what they were doing. And what they were doing would not match what we see the Apostles doing.

Actually, Cessation, matches this most perfectly.


When we consider that Paul said he would see the [perfect to come] means it cannot be the completed Bible because he was DEAD 30 years before it was completed. So it clearly means when he see's the Resurrected Jesus. So the Gifts end when we see Jesus Return.

[QUOTE="tedincarolina, post: 53398[/USER]
Have you ever heard an atheist doing great miracles in Jesus' name? A muslim? Hindi? Any other religious or non-religious group? No, I'm confident that this warning was to those of us who walk around on the earth portraying ourselves as christians, but, as Jesus said, don't really know him. They don't really have a right relationship with Jesus.

Oh, they go to worship services and some may likely be very faithful week after week in going to such services. They might be doing great deeds like feeding the homeless and providing for orphans and widows with a religious group, but the person themself has no true relationship with Jesus.

This warning is all for christians and christians only.[/QUOTE]


What do you think about Benny Hinn?

You are right about one thing—this picture in Matthew 7 definitely IMPLIES that a Christian must follow Christ’s LAW. Isn’t that exactly what verse 23 says?? They were working LAWLESSNESS—that means without Christ’s law and Jesus tells us plainly THAT is why they are being condemned. It didn’t matter that they were BELIEVERS. He has already told us in James 2:24 that FAITH ALONE will not save anyone. People just will not believe what God says. Paul said in 1 Cor. 7:19 that what matters is keeping the commandments of God. So of course Satan is going to say the very opposite of that; and we have plenty of preachers telling us that obedience to God’s laws is “legalism” and “works.”
This reminds me of Eve in the garden. God plainly said—“YOU WILL DIE…”
Satan comes along and clearly contradicts God by saying—“YOU WILL NOT DIE.”” It has always amazed me that she took Satan’s lies over God’s truth or that she chose to believe Satan instead of Gid. But isn’t that exactly what people are doing today?? God says,” NOT BY FAITH ONLY” and Satan comes along and says, “ YES, BY FAITH ONLY.” (No scripture). And people are just flocking to his lies.
Again, God says, “ BAPTISM SAVES…1 Peter 3:21 and Satan says, “BAPTISM DOES NOT SAVE.”” ( no scripture) and who are people believing?
And so God says “whoever does not abide in the doctrine of Christ DOES NOT HAVE GOD. 2 John 9. That was the reason for the scenario in Matthew 7.

What do you think about Benny Hinn?[/QUOTE]

I'm not particularly informed on him. I know he was an evangelist and held some pretty large rallies for the Lord. I think he did a lot of faith healings. But I'm assuming that you're asking whether he might be one of those that Jesus turns away. I don't know. He could be. My position here is just to say that when Jesus said this, he was talking about people seen as christians while they lived upon the earth by virtue of his saying that they did these things in Jesus' name. He wasn't referencing unbelievers or those who might follow some other religious practice while living upon the earth. That's all.

Personally, I'll be greatly disappointed if Billy Graham isn't one who receives the promise of God's eternal life. Billy was a man who spoke against sin, but never made it personal. Just always generally speaking of the sin in the world. But then he clearly and confidently explained to all who would listen that the answer for our problem of sin is Jesus. And I believe that's what we should be doing.

I was greatly disappointed that his son, Franklin, allowed himself to be mired in the dirty world of politics. Billy would never support politicians. He might speak for or against some political agenda, such as abortion or immoral sexual acts, but never endorsed specific people. He did visit with and discuss national issues with several presidents but that's as deep as he would go. I've read that, even with as little involvement as he had in politics, he felt, at the end of his life, that he had gone too far. While his son seems to have no qualms in giving endorsements that carry a lot of weight among the believers. That's sad, in my understanding, but it also confirms that we get worse, not better in this matter of sin as time marches inexorably to the last day.

Understood.

But that wasn't what I asked.

I just saw he's responded a bit, so I'll read that before saying anymore here.

[QUOTE="tedincarolina, post: 5339953]


I'm not particularly informed on him. I know he was an evangelist and held some pretty large rallies for the Lord. I think he did a lot of faith healings. But I'm assuming that you're asking whether he might be one of those that Jesus turns away. I don't know. He could be. My position here is just to say that when Jesus said this, he was talking about people seen as christians while they lived upon the earth by virtue of his saying that they did these things in Jesus' name. He wasn't referencing unbelievers or those who might follow some other religious practice while living upon the earth. That's all.

Personally, I'll be greatly disappointed if Billy Graham isn't one who receives the promise of God's eternal life. Billy was a man who spoke against sin, but never made it personal. Just always generally speaking of the sin in the world. But then he clearly and confidently explained to all who would listen that the answer for our problem of sin is Jesus. And I believe that's what we should be doing.

I was greatly disappointed that his son, Franklin, allowed himself to be mired in the dirty world of politics. Billy would never support politicians. He might speak for or against some political agenda, such as abortion or immoral sexual acts, but never endorsed specific people. He did visit with and discuss national issues with several presidents but that's as deep as he would go. I've read that, even with as little involvement as he had in politics, he felt, at the end of his life, that he had gone too far. While his son seems to have no qualms in giving endorsements that carry a lot of weight among the believers. That's sad, in my understanding, but it also confirms that we get worse, not better in this matter of sin as time marches inexorably to the last day.[/QUOTE]


Ted,

It is a difficult thing to understand Satan's powers since we are only informed in a limited amount of those details. Yesterday evening I was reminded of how Satan showed Jesus in a moment all the kingdoms of the earth. I don't know how that works.

Here's an example of Satan's servants performing some black arts described in Exodus.

And Moses and Aaron went in unto Pharaoh, and they did so as the LORD had commanded: and Aaron cast down his rod before Pharaoh, and before his servants, and it became a serpent. 11Then Pharaoh also called the wise men and the sorcerers: now the magicians of Egypt, they also did in like manner with their enchantments. 12For they cast down every man his rod, and they became serpents: but Aaron's rod swallowed up their rods.

We know of other uncanny supernatural works in those chapters before the exodus too.
Since we know this, how is it a mystery if those who believe they are saved because of trusting in their works, claiming to do miracles in Matthew 7, are not even known by God?
Is it any wonder Jesus said, depart from me. I never knew you.

I know what you are getting at, but I think the way you're saying it is part of the problem.

I think I saw @Cameron143 saying something somewhere about belief vs. faith. I have some surface level problems with this also, but I I can appreciate the concept.

I think Jesus told them they didn't believe in Him. For one thing, in Matthew, as I read Jesus, He only uses the word "lawlessness" in regard to unbelievers. I covered this in an earlier post.

I think our problem is that we do not let the Word of God define "Faith" for us. Firstly, Biblical Faith in God is spoken of in the Text in parallel to Obedience to God. There really seems to be no such thing as Faith in Christ apart from Obedience to Christ. On a very simple level, how can someone say they believe Jesus is the Christ (the one with all authority in Heaven and on earth) and not be in submission to Him? It makes no sense. This is how Jesus speaks of Biblical Faith and it's not much different that the verse under discussion:


This is part of the debate over the "Faith Alone" saying which was countered with "Faith is never alone." A simplistic view of faith causes problems.

Biblical Faith has many qualifiers, such as obedience, abiding, enduring, etc., and such things are commanded of Believers. The Gospel is both believed and obeyed.

As you're picking up, lawlessness also is not a simple word and it does not have to be tied to the OC Law.

This can obviously be refined, but I think what We see Jesus doing in this part of Matthew is telling people who obviously knew who He is and used His name, that they really did not Believe in Him - did not have Biblical Faith in Him - they really never did obey Him - they did not depart from unrighteousness (which is also lawlessness) - thus He never knew them.

Paul never said he would “see” the completed word. After clearly saying that their knowledge was “in part” because they did not have God’s completed revelation, he says it’s like looking in a dim Mirror. You don’t get a clear picture. But he says when we have God’s complete word ( revelation it also will be like seeing God face to face because He talks to us through His written word. I Cor. 7:2 says we have the “mind of Christ.” Where? In the scriptures. We can commune with Christ and He talks with us through the scriptures. The Psalmist says in 27:8, “the Lord said, ‘Seek my face. Did God mean for David to literally see his face? God doesn’t even have a fleshly face that we can see. He means in a spiritual sense —not literally. And how could David ‘seek God’s face’? Through the Old Testament scriptures and by doing God’s will. It’s figurative.
David also said, “ your face Lord I will seek. Was he looking for a visual image of God’s face? Was he expecting to see God face to face? No, of course not. It was figurative and the only way David could seek God’s face was by seeking him through the scriptures that told him about God and how to serve him.
The point Paul is making in 1 Cor. 13 is clear. The “perfect” will of God (Rom12:2) was not yet available to them. Their knowledge was only “in part”; they could only prophecy “in part”. It was like looking through a dim mirror where you can’t “see” plainly. They weren’t really, literally looking in a dim mirror. This is just an illustration of what it was like not having the complete, perfect Bible. But once that “perfect” revelation is complete, it will be like seeing God face to face. If the first half of this illustration is figurative or just an illustration, then the second half of his argument is figurative also. It is a mistake to try to take the words “face to face” and make them literal. It is also taking those words completely out of context!
2Cor. 4:2 Paul talks about those who “handle the word of God deceitfully.” Let’s be honest with God’s word. 2 Peter 3:16 says, “ which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people TWIST to their own destruction, as they also do the rest of the scriptures.” Let’s make sure we are not doing that. Read the context and seek the truth.

Marilyn, how do you come up with these doozies? Is this what your "apostles" taught you. You have revered what the Bible teaches.

So what kind of Bible do you have? Why bother if you do not have a complete perfect Bible? Even Muslims have a higher regard for their Koran!

The way you have interpreted "face-to-face" shows that you must have a totally different Bible than us. "We know in part" and "prophesy in part" because it will be completed by Revelation, where there is no prophesying "in part". Paul was writing long before John, so he spoke the truth. But so did John who shut the Bible up to any more prophesies. "The Revelation of Jesus Christ" is more than enough, and if it is not for you, then you do have a very serious problem.

Nope, I was spiritually redeemed when I was born again. The fact you have such a problem with what I've said and these truths of the Spirit seem to completely evade you makes me question how "saved" you really are. These things I speak of are like salvation 101, the fact you think we are born just fine with our spirit alive and well are a HUGE red flag in my opinion. I of course can't know if you or anyone but myself are saved, but your seeming ignorance of the condition of men's spirit from birth points to a HUGE misunderstanding.

The even bigger problem in your response is your ignorance of the purpose of the virgin birth. Just in case you didn't know Mary was not impregnated by a MAN, she was impregnated by the Spirit of God. So NO Jesus was not born of Adam, He was born of the Spirit. Again your interpretation and misunderstanding of this is another HUGE red flag in my opinion. You really seem pretty ignorant of the things of the Spirit, because you get a LOT of it wrong. I've said my piece and listened to yours, and don't see any point of continuing to beat my head against a falsely converted wall. You honestly do not seem to understand what the spirit of men even is if you think we are born with it, it's the very reason NO ONE is born connected to God as we were created to be, and IS the WHOLE POINT of what Jesus came to repair. I'm sorry if this offends you, that's not my purpose, I just have to do what He commands me to do and proclaim the truth no matter how bad it might hurt or upset. I don't dislike you or just want to argue here, but I find much truth missing in your post here and feel it's more loving to address them rather than ignore them. Even if it just makes me look like a know it all overstepping my boundaries. I just wish I'd have had someone to tell me this much earlier.

Yes. This pertains to those who were never born again, since only those who have been born again have Christ within. Christ knows them because they are "in Him" and He is in them.

yes the key is knowing Him