Total Depravity

God is ultimate troll in Calvinism. Also I had no idea that the Westminster actually states the Holy Spirit gives rebirth PRIOR to faith? Absolute reverse of the Bible. Why are people in this system?

Ex.32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


Deut 9:6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the Lord thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord.

8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the Lord to wrath, so that the Lord was angry with you to have destroyed you.

9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

12 And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.

13 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the Lord your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the Lord had commanded you.

17 And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.

18 And I fell down before the Lord, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.

19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the Lord was wroth against you to destroy you. But the Lord hearkened unto me at that time also.

20 And the Lord was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.


Psa 106:19
They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.
Psa 106:20
Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.
Psa 106:21
They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
Psa 106:22
Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.
Psa 106:23
Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

They manipulate people into taking shortcuts and making ungrounded deductions. It occurred to me that this same principle accounts for the way Calvinists became duped into thinking TULIP is true.

God intended to destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a great nation in their place. He changed His mind. The Ever-existing is God. He can change His mind, if He decides to do so. Who are you, O man, to contradict God, and to tell us that he cannot change His mind, when He gives numerous examples in scripture of Himself doing just that.

this is Hebrew betrothal ceremony language. in the ancient custom, the groom if asked about the secret time of the snatching away of the bride, would defer all questions to his father, saying, only he knows - because it is the father of the groom who sets the time.

it doesn't mean the groom doesn't know. it means you should not be asking the groom, in fact, you should not be asking at all, but waiting for your invitation from the father to the wedding feast.

Yes why do they promote something not established in scripture like .....
God has to prick the ears first,
God has to circumcise the heart first,
God has to allow them to see first,
God has to give them faith first,
God has to regenerate first
People are born without the ability to respond to the Good News because God ordained it that way.

Why are they in this system >>>> because it is a simple and a mechanistic world view, some people need that along with a heavy dose of self-loathing or some other psychological reason projected onto scripture.

Yes.

Some are duped, some accept it wholeheartedly they want it to be true, they hate humanity and themselves, I have met those types as well.

The problem is, it not easy to break free because once you adopt this lens you think you see it in scripture, confirmation bias.
There is a discomfort in living with unknowns and complexity, TULIP has all the answers for a worldview, however, on a personal level it can be very discomforting.

That is often when people break free, when they have to come to terms with the fact that a family member was not one of the
pre-selected.

It is very repulsive how the poorly defined concept of the "sovereignty of God" is used as a cover for this doctrine.
They are out to make converts maybe to replenish those who do break free.

You wanna talk about painting a nasty picture of God? It doesnt get uglier than this, the more I listen, read and think about it, it becomes just so disgusting. You have a god who throws a rope to a sinner in the pit, commands him to pick it up or hes gonna throw acid on them as well. He keeps demanding and asking for you to grab the rope, the only problem is, he only put it half way and cursed you with total depravity. You cant grab it(maybe dont even want to?), the gospel is not REALLY for you.

Jesus’ words in John 6:65

These would be the ones who 'heard' from the Father. The obedient remnant of Israel and the God fearing gentiles such as Cornelius.

Ex.32:7 And the Lord said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:

8 They have turned aside quickly out of the way which I commanded them: they have made them a molten calf, and have worshipped it, and have sacrificed thereunto, and said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which have brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.

9 And the Lord said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

10 Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation.

11 And Moses besought the Lord his God, and said, Lord, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand?

12 Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people.

13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.

14 And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


Deut 9:6 Understand therefore, that the Lord thy God giveth thee not this good land to possess it for thy righteousness; for thou art a stiffnecked people.

7 Remember, and forget not, how thou provokedst the Lord thy God to wrath in the wilderness: from the day that thou didst depart out of the land of Egypt, until ye came unto this place, ye have been rebellious against the Lord.

8 Also in Horeb ye provoked the Lord to wrath, so that the Lord was angry with you to have destroyed you.

9 When I was gone up into the mount to receive the tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant which the Lord made with you, then I abode in the mount forty days and forty nights, I neither did eat bread nor drink water:

10 And the Lord delivered unto me two tables of stone written with the finger of God; and on them was written according to all the words, which the Lord spake with you in the mount out of the midst of the fire in the day of the assembly.

11 And it came to pass at the end of forty days and forty nights, that the Lord gave me the two tables of stone, even the tables of the covenant.

12 And the Lord said unto me, Arise, get thee down quickly from hence; for thy people which thou hast brought forth out of Egypt have corrupted themselves; they are quickly turned aside out of the way which I commanded them; they have made them a molten image.

13 Furthermore the Lord spake unto me, saying, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:

14 Let me alone, that I may destroy them, and blot out their name from under heaven: and I will make of thee a nation mightier and greater than they.

15 So I turned and came down from the mount, and the mount burned with fire: and the two tables of the covenant were in my two hands.

16 And I looked, and, behold, ye had sinned against the Lord your God, and had made you a molten calf: ye had turned aside quickly out of the way which the Lord had commanded you.

17 And I took the two tables, and cast them out of my two hands, and brake them before your eyes.

18 And I fell down before the Lord, as at the first, forty days and forty nights: I did neither eat bread, nor drink water, because of all your sins which ye sinned, in doing wickedly in the sight of the Lord, to provoke him to anger.

19 For I was afraid of the anger and hot displeasure, wherewith the Lord was wroth against you to destroy you. But the Lord hearkened unto me at that time also.

20 And the Lord was very angry with Aaron to have destroyed him: and I prayed for Aaron also the same time.


Psa 106:19
They made a calf in Horeb, and worshipped the molten image.
Psa 106:20
Thus they changed their glory into the similitude of an ox that eateth grass.
Psa 106:21
They forgat God their saviour, which had done great things in Egypt;
Psa 106:22
Wondrous works in the land of Ham, and terrible things by the Red sea.
Psa 106:23
Therefore he said that he would destroy them, had not Moses his chosen stood before him in the breach, to turn away his wrath, lest he should destroy them.

God intended to destroy the Israelites and make of Moses a great nation in their place. He changed His mind. The Ever-existing is God. He can change His mind, if He decides to do so. Who are you, O man, to contradict God, and to tell us that he cannot change His mind, when He gives numerous examples in scripture of Himself doing just that.

You should not be formulating a set of propositions about what kind of God you would find worthy of worship, and then spend so much time and energy trying to convince people that scripture cannot not mean what it says, because if it did, it would present a God who does not conform to the model of Deity you have formulated for yourself, or someone else formulated for you.

Matt 24: 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This verse follows Matt 24: 36 which states that only the Father knows the day and time. The analogy that is brought up is with the days of Noah concerning the people being oblivious to the upcoming event.
You Sir, have introduced literature concerning an ancient custom that has nothing to do with what verse 36 and 37 of Matt 24 says. Just an observation, tactics like this serve one of two purposes: to display extraneous knowledge for show or to confuse what the Bible is actually saying. I hope that you believe that my purpose is not to offend, but to correct. We are all subject to criticism, but the best type is positive. All this is my observation and I apologize for any offense taken.

Matt 24: 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This verse follows Matt 24: 36

Matt 24: 37 But as in the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
This verse follows Matt 24: 36 which states that only the Father knows the day and time. The analogy that is brought up is with the days of Noah concerning the people being oblivious to the upcoming event.
You Sir, have introduced literature concerning an ancient custom that has nothing to do with what verse 36 and 37 of Matt 24 says. Just an observation, tactics like this serve one of two purposes: to display extraneous knowledge for show or to confuse what the Bible is actually saying. I hope that you believe that my purpose is not to offend, but to correct. We are all subject to criticism, but the best type is positive. All this is my observation and I apologize for any offense taken.

And when you confess Christ as the Son of the Living God, did you also come to that all by yourself, also?

I haven't seen anyone but you using the term "all by yourself" in regards to faith and salvation . I don't knw why you would be under the delusion that anyone thinks any stage of salvation through faith in Jesus Christ is "all by yourself".

Psalm 55:19
God, who is enthroned from of old, who does not change— he will hear them and humble them, because they have no fear of God.
Hebrews 7:21
but he became a priest with an oath when God said to him: “The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind: ‘You are a priest forever.’”
God has to this day remained the same. It is mankind that changes in man's interpretations and messes things up to this day
2 Corinthians 1:12
Paul’s Change of Plans
Now this is our boast: Our conscience testifies that we have conducted ourselves in the world, and especially in our relations with you, with integrity and godly sincerity. We have done so, relying not on worldly wisdom but on God’s grace.
2 Corinthians 3:14
But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.

1. Hebrews 5:5
   In the same way, Christ did not take on himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “You are my Son; today I have become your Father.”
   In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
2. Hebrews 13:8
   Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

when you have a Christless interpretation of the OT, you are not interpretating it according to the purpose it was written and the purpose for which these events took place - therefore you naturally get it absolutely wrong.

Exodus 32 is John 17. it is Christ on the cross making substitutionary atonement, saving those who put their trust in Him from the righteous wrath of God we deserve.

it is not God lacking omniscience. it is prophecy, and is itself fulfillment of prophecy, Deuteronomy 18 saying Messiah will be like Moses.
if you understood this and Geneais 3, when God removed the fig leaves from Adam and his wife and made by His own hand coverings for them, shedding innocent blood for their propitiation, you would expect Exodus 32. it must be exactly what it is, God must be Himself manifested as the Messiah and satisfy His justice with mercy - therefore Moses must stand in the gap.

this is not 'God changing His mind' this is the perfect plan of the omniscient Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, portrayed for us in type and shadow so that those who have, will have more, and those who do not have, even what they have, will be taken away.
it is the holiness and lovingkindness of the infinite God meeting together in righteousness: it is Jesus Christ.